Ducati Monster Forum

Last weekend I took a fast run down-and-up Hwy 23 in Arkansas - The Pig Trail, as it is known - with a group of cars. The group consisted of a 500hp Audi S4, 400hp STI, 380hp VW Jetta, 280hp Beetle, and two Porsches (a 944 and 914, both modded) all on R-Comp rubber. I was on my 620 and my buddy was alongside on his ZZR1200.

During the run back up, the Jetta and S4 lead with the 944 third in line and my buddy and I on our bikes behind him. The Jetta and S4 pulled away pretty quickly, and with two bikes nipping at his heels the 944 driver got a little too overzealous. This video is from inside the 944. What you don't see is how much speed I had coming around that bend that I had to scrub off in order to avoid him! First time for me balancing traction between a hard cornering manouver and panic braking, I think I did pretty well. Luckily I had built in some following distance through the curves for just such an occasion! 

Porsche 944 spin on pig trail (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ijw1_OSswOs#normal)

Gravel?

Near as we can tell he went in hot, downshifted mid-turn and didn't get the revs matched right. No gravel on the road.

He says "I thought I'd take up the rear". Thus was just his way of falling to the back of the pack  [laugh]

LOL Yeah I thought that was pretty funny. He's an older guy, a Porsche fanatic, he's spun more times than I'm sure he can remember. Stayed cool as a cucumber.  [coffee]

I sooooooooooooo love that road!  Wife and I just did that road about three weeks ago and into Eureka and hwy 123 (AKA Arkansas Dragon).

oh you can tell that you were moving at a good speed right when you came around the corner - then you had to dump that speed and slow down pretty quickly - nice job!  [thumbsup]

Kudos for keeping your head and eyes up!  [thumbsup] [thumbsup]

Though, I must say that it would have looked pretty bada$$ from that dash cam to see you do an Evil Kenevil and use the sloped hood of that 944 as a ramp for an awesome jump over the car!!

Nice! We drive out there with our car club at least once a year to play... this year I decided to ride the Duc and didn't regret it one bit! 850 miles of pure fun!  [moto]

Thanks Dave!  [thumbsup]

Sure - I watched your clip about 4 times - you had to slow down fast! I'm pretty sure if it had been me, the words OOHHHH Shiiiii.... would have been visible through my visor!!  [cheeky]

on your next trip let us in DFW know.  I'm sure some, me for sure, would jump on the bandwagon.

Damn I should have posted something here - the guy on the ZZR came from DFW!

Wow.  That ended up A LOT better than I thought it would.  Glad to know no one got hurt, including the car!   [thumbsup]

we could bring a big group, it would be a lot of fun.

   Count me in next time! I live about an hour and a half north. There are some wicked curves on that road.

Dang son!  Nice maneuver.

there's at least three of us planning a run in October.  Probably leave on Thursday night (being trailer queens) and return Monday morning.  staying in Eureka somewhere.  Interested?

May be it was just me ........but it didn't look like the Porsche was going that fast !

I guess I'm looking at it from a bike perspective .

Dolph    :)

Not just you.

I'd imagine we were probably doing about 50-65 mph at that time. Not blinding but enough to get into some trouble for sure.

380 hp Jetta  :o 280 hp Beetle  :o

 ???

I think that camera angle is deceiving somewhat.  I've ridden that road many times and that part looked liked the part they repaired from the washouts.  This is to say that these parts are much more slick than usual plus that road is tighter than it looks. 

I drove Porsches from 1972 to 2007 and I can't imagine 65 mph on pavement being even a second thought as far as making a turn.

Must have been something on the road surface or very bad rubber or suspension.

Dolph   

Shitty vid, but this dude isn't going very fast.

Porsche 911 crash (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icELh69gSWk#normal)


...or this one.

Porsche 911 Accident 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1w6MPSvVL4#normal)

The big difference here is 911s have the engine in the rear and were for years always bad about the rear coming around under speed .

The 944 Porsche is a front engine car so no such problem exists like in the rear engined pre Porsche Stability Management 911s.

Dolph    :)

I didn't read all the comments, but seems to be pretty irresponsible driving and riding.  Don't see much cool about it...if anything, gets me a little angry. Isn't that what tracks are for? 

Finally, some common sense. Seriously.

You mean under too much speed. Or, suddenly letting up on the accelerator and shifting the weight to the front, causing the rear to slide.

Basically the older 911s before SCM ( Stability control Management ) understeered badly because as I said before w, the engine in the rear the ass end would hang out in the corners at higher rates of speed.


Dolph

What would get drivers of older German cars, not just Porsche, is trailing throttle oversteer.  Porsches were just more subject to this.  Panic, let off the throttle, even worse, add some brake and the outside rear wheel would toe out a little and around she goes.  A bad mid corner downshift could do the same thing.

944s are very easy cars to drive fast. Front engine, rear transmission. Rear engine cars you really need to be on top of your game to drive em fast.  Mid engine cars are great until you spin em, then they spin like a top.  I'm not a big fan of 944s. They drive good but you can definitely feel the weight outside of the axles. If I had a choice it would be mid engine all the way.

Yeah really.  [coffee]

cry about it

i had a friend years ago. he was rallying an RX7. he also had a 944. (mentioned the rx7 to show he knew how to drive)
He challenged me to a run between flagstaff and sedona az, anyone that's run this, will know the terrain... elevation change with tons of switchbacks.
unfortunately he had a broken tierod so couldnt run, so I offered to let him sit navigator on a run...
when we were down.. he said.. forget it... i would have won.
my car....

a first year miata

[evil]

light is right

On one of my first track days, a guy in Miata lapped me (in my 911) twice during a session. Sure, he had full racing slicks on, and was an experienced racer, but still... 

I miss my Miata now and then. Tons of fun.

 [laugh]

When I first read this thread, I thought "pretty cool video, good thing nobody & no vehicles got hurt, a nice piece of riding by the OP to avoid a crash, live & let live."

I'm in a bit of a less laissez-faire mood today, having just watched a 911 in LOOK AT ME! LOOK AT ME! yellow blow a downhill left turn badly this morning in my backyard twisties and end up about 2/3 over the double yellow, looking straight at me & my ST2 coming up the hill. Mr. Yellow was in front of two other cars that appeared to be with him -- third in line was a black RX8, not sure about the middle one.

I'd wager that he was driving way over his head because of peer pressure & the cars behind him, on a road that simply doesn't allow mistakes. If it was another car oncoming instead of a bike, a horse trailer, a semi (not legal on that road, but common), or if I'd been pushing MY pace a couple of tenths harder, the cops & EMTs would still be untangling the mess.

For reference, here's the beautiful road in question (Raux might recognize it from Northern AZ); I was headed uphill, in the direction of the bikes, the Porsche-led crew was headed downhill -- I'm guessing we intersected somewhere in the 4:30-4:50 mark in this video:

Hypermotard Leading FZ-1 On White Spars (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QyTMNtMLAcM#normal)

While this morning's the incident that's fresh in my head, that kind of stuff happens more regularly than not when I ride White Spar on the weekends -- fortunately, I live close & get to ride it mid-week. I'd say 75% of the stupid stuff that happens on this section of road is related to group dynamics -- doesn't matter if we're talking sports cars, sport bikes, Harleys, whatever -- people pushing their limits in groups tend to make really bad choices, and the consequences of those choices tend to affect a whole bunch more people than someone pushing on a track or when they're alone.

Rant off. And that WAS some nice riding by you, Shifty!

^^^ Those are great points. Oncoming traffic always conerns me, especially on weekends such as this one when Eureka Springs is inundated with sports cars travelling in packs. Also, you're completely right: pack driving on roads like this does amplify the chances of someone making stupid mistakes. It's easy to push harder into that next corner simply because the guy in front of you can, or the guy behind you is breathing down your neck. It can be easy to dismiss variables like tires, brakes, and suspension (let alone driving skill) and that's where things start to go wrong.

Two years ago we had an incident on Hwy 23 involving one of the "better" drivers in our group. He was driving a modified MkV GTI with upgraded brakes (pads, rotors). He had driven 23 several times quite briskly and was very comfortable pushing his cars' boundaries. However, when following a slightly faster group of cars while carrying two extra passengers one day, his car experienced sudden brake fade and he drove right off of a 180 downhill switchback. $18,000 in total damages to the GTI, luckily no one was hurt. Chasing the pack made him completely neglect the added weight in the car, or the fact that his brake lines and fluid were not upgraded.

 

Pack mentality involving fast cars and motorcycles is VERY dangerous.

I've seen it 1st hand.

Dolph     [evil]