I got water into the fuel system. The bike stopped running.
I drained the tank and carbs. Pulled the carbs off and gave them a good cleaning.
New spark plugs were installed and I have spark.
The carbs are back on and I'm getting fuel to the float bowls.
I've got compression and vacuum pulling air past the carbs into the engine.
A spray of starter fluid let's the engine turn right over. (which made me quite happy to hear since it hasn't ran in a month)
A peek inside the carbs with the throttle open shows me that there is no fuel being pumped past the needle and onto the cylinders.
I've got the carbs back apart and can find no obvious clogs, so what else could prevent fuel from getting out of the float bowls, past the needle, and into the engine?
is the fuel pump definitely working? did you change the filter? water in the filter can make crud move around and clog.
make sure you have good flow off the tank
if you do, then remove the carbs and get them sonically cleaned. or r&r with a new pair.
i bet it's the pump or the filter tho
Yes I definitely changed the fuel filter.
If the pump was bad, would the carbs receive any fuel. They are getting fuel to the float bowls.
Quote from: citizin on September 11, 2010, 11:53:41 AM
Yes I definitely changed the fuel filter.
If the pump was bad, would the carbs receive any fuel. They are getting fuel to the float bowls.
If you're getting fuel at crank over the pump is working, or there is enough fuel in the tank to gravity feed.
Either way it should start if you have fuel in the carbs.
Hi there.
This applies if you're getting fuel but only a dribble. Like enough fuel to fire but not enough to rev. It's hard to know how much fuel is getting to the carbs. It's hard to believe it's not another problem if the carbs are being fed properly. If you disconnect the hose to the carbs, turn over the motor, and the fuel pulses strongly out of the hose into a can, then disregard what I'm about to post. If the fuel supply is ok, do the slides lift when you try and rev it? If they don't you will have to recheck how you put the carbs back together, ie the little O rings are there, the carb top seals ok, the floats were put back correctly, etc.
What kind of fuel tap? Vacuum or manual? If its a vacuum tap, sometimes the rubber diaphragm type seals bugger up over time and may be affected by certain fuel additives. Same for the pump.
Also check your vacuum hoses to the pump and tap, and the fuel hose from the tank to the tap for kinks (it happens more than you'd think).
You could fill the tank right up and bypass the pump with a hose to check if the carbs get more fuel and it runs. If fuel flows ok and it runs it's the pump, if it doesn't its the tap or a tank blockage.
There are good, cheap aftermarket taps and pumps you can get thru the forum sponsors.
People get around a bad pump by bypassing it but you can't use the whole tanks worth of gas with gravity feed only. It gets you by until you source a new pump but you need to refill after using only half to two thirds of a tank.
dp - there is definitely fuel in the float bowls
koko - I have no idea which one of those I have. It's a 00 Monster 750 dark.
So let me get this straight ------
Even if the pump or tap is bad, I can still get fuel to the carbs via gravity feed?
Quote from: citizin on September 11, 2010, 01:57:18 PM
<snip>
So let me get this straight ------
Even if the pump or tap is bad, I can still get fuel to the carbs via gravity feed?
Fuel will feed until the fuel level is below the level of the carbs.
I think you still have a water problem.
It can hide in the system even though you have drained the tank and added fresh fuel.
koko - you edited your post while I was replying!
Yes the throttle plates open up properly. That was my first thought - that I had put something on the carbs incorrectly. But I've checked and rechecked and they are on properly.
But the trickle you talked about - I will try this tomorrow. I believe that you have pointed me in a better direction. The carbs are getting gas, but not enough to fire or run. I've cleaned them and checked everything. But if there is no pressure then the fuel wouldn't go anywhere, just sit in the carbs.
I've got no fuel tap except just a threaded fixture coming out of the tank and a hose attached to running to the fuel filter.
dp - if there is water hiding, then it's not anywhere between the gas tank and the carbs. I just pulled fresh gas out of the float bowls and no water was to be seen.
Let me ask what is a simple question that I just don't know the answer to....
What exactly causes the fuel in the float bowl to come up through the jets and into the main passageway of the carbs>engine?
Quote from: citizin on September 11, 2010, 02:16:45 PM
koko - you edited your post while I was replying!
Yes the throttle plates open up properly. That was my first thought - that I had put something on the carbs incorrectly. But I've checked and rechecked and they are on properly.
But the trickle you talked about - I will try this tomorrow. I believe that you have pointed me in a better direction. The carbs are getting gas, but not enough to fire or run. I've cleaned them and checked everything. But if there is no pressure then the fuel wouldn't go anywhere, just sit in the carbs.
I've got no fuel tap except just a threaded fixture coming out of the tank and a hose attached to running to the fuel filter.
dp - if there is water hiding, then it's not anywhere between the gas tank and the carbs. I just pulled fresh gas out of the float bowls and no water was to be seen.
Carbs don't work on fuel pressure.
They work by vacuum
If there is fuel in the bowls it should at least fire and idle.
Have you looked at the plugs since you replaced them?
Just put a new set in this morning when I sprayed with starter fluid.
They've been fired once. Let me be clear, the carbs are not spraying fuel from where the needle sits in the emulsion tube.
Quote from: citizin on September 11, 2010, 02:26:22 PM
Just put a new set in this morning when I sprayed with starter fluid.
They've been fired once. Let me be clear, the carbs are not spraying fuel from where the needle sits in the emulsion tube.
When you disassembled the carbs did you get the diaphragms for the slides and the little o-ring for the cover back in correctly?
The fuel the engine gets from starting enters through the pilot jet...not the emulsion tube.
Yes when I pulled the carbs off this afternoon, the diaphragm and o-ring were sitting properly. Where does the pilot jet input the fuel so that it can enter the engine?
And not to make things even more muddy - although the factory jets are installed, the needle was set at 2nd notch from the top (top meaning closest to the upper cover) and the idle mixture screws were five turns out. Neither of which is what my Haynes says is factory setting.
I feel (and probably sound ) like I'm running in circles and grasping at straws....
Quote from: citizin on September 11, 2010, 02:52:07 PM
Yes when I pulled the carbs off this afternoon, the diaphragm and o-ring were sitting properly. Where does the pilot jet input the fuel so that it can enter the engine?
And not to make things even more muddy - although the factory jets are installed, the needle was set at 2nd notch from the top (top meaning closest to the upper cover) and the idle mixture screws were five turns out. Neither of which is what my Haynes says is factory setting.
I feel (and probably sound ) like I'm running in circles and grasping at straws....
Try turning the screws in a little...about one turn.
...and humor a humorless guy and check the plugs.
I will screw them in one turn....
and I'll humor you right now....I'm gonna go check 'em.
They look like they did when I put them on this morning, nice and clean.
Try squirting a little fuel in the carbs...an oil can works well.
If it fires add some more to keep it running.
Maybe your pump is the problem.
I will have to do that tomorrow - it's getting dark here and the girlfriend has dinner on the stove.
So straight fuel down past the throttle? Would that not be the same as spraying starter fluid.
Quote from: citizin on September 11, 2010, 03:17:24 PM
I will have to do that tomorrow - it's getting dark here and the girlfriend has dinner on the stove.
So straight fuel down past the throttle? Would that not be the same as spraying starter fluid.
Fuel is safer for the engine.
Gotcha -
Thanks for the help dp, koko - sorry if I ask a lot of questions. I just want to be knowledgeable about my Ducati and how things work so maybe one day I won't have to always come on here and ask!
If you have a fairly full thank you can bypass the fuel pump to rule that out. It could be clogged from the water issue. Same with the vacuum fuel cut off. You may also have your floats set way to low or needles and seats could be stuck closed. And, as humorless keeps saying, new plugs don't hurt.
Oh, check that the fuel lines are not kinked or collapsed.
I'm going to try to pump bypass tomorrow. I'm going to get a friend to check the float levels.
None of the lines are kinked or collapsed, I think.
And I put new plugs on it today, again.
Let's say the needles are getting stuck - what would remedy that?
Quote from: citizin on September 11, 2010, 05:18:53 PM
<snip>
Let's say the needles are getting stuck - what would remedy that?
Cleaning...but you already did that.
Fuel Pump
I pulled the line coming from the pump to the carbs - I got a steady stream of gas when the engine was off and then the stream "pulsed" along with the engine as I cranked it.
Carb Test
I opened up the throttle slides so that the needle was lifted out of the emulsion tubes. I put it in gear and opened up the throttle (with it on a rear stand) and cranked the engine. Didn't notice any fuel coming from the emulsion tube.
Quote from: citizin on September 12, 2010, 06:25:50 AM
Fuel Pump
I pulled the line coming from the pump to the carbs - I got a steady stream of gas when the engine was off and then the stream "pulsed" along with the engine as I cranked it.
Carb Test
I opened up the throttle slides so that the needle was lifted out of the emulsion tubes. I put it in gear and opened up the throttle (with it on a rear stand) and cranked the engine. Didn't notice any fuel coming from the emulsion tube.
The fuel pump operation sounds fine...for starting at least.
There isn't necessarily proper vacuum from the engine at cranking to pull fuel through the emulsion tubes.
Did you try spraying/dripping some fuel in the mouth of the carb to see if it fires?
We've got the engine firing at full choke, but then it cuts off.
We've got no firing in gear....
Floats are off - not letting enough gas into the float bowls....
Quote from: citizin on September 12, 2010, 07:21:31 AM
We've got the engine firing at full choke, but then it cuts off.
We've got no firing in gear....
Floats are off - not letting enough gas into the float bowls....
Set the float level to 14mm.
I think I've got them set, but I'm slightly unsure and don't want to have to pull them off and try again. I checked the Ducati Suite site on how to do this, but it was unclear on some stuff and the pics are too small to see anything.
Setting them upside down on a level surface so the float bowl is now the top, you measure the distance from the flat metal rim of the open float bowl to the top of the rectangular float that is exposed. You measure the distance that said float travels "UP", meaning the fuel metering is open and letting fuel into the bowl.
???
Quote from: citizin on September 12, 2010, 09:16:55 AM
I think I've got them set, but I'm slightly unsure and don't want to have to pull them off and try again. I checked the Ducati Suite site on how to do this, but it was unclear on some stuff and the pics are too small to see anything.
Setting them upside down on a level surface so the float bowl is now the top, you measure the distance from the flat metal rim of the open float bowl to the top of the rectangular float that is exposed. You measure the distance that said float travels "UP", meaning the fuel metering is open and letting fuel into the bowl.
???
You have most of it right.
Measure the distance with the float just sitting on the needle by it's own weight. You don't move anything to measure it. That will mean the needle is closed at 14mm.
edit...
good photo here....http://www.factorypro.com/tech_tuning_procedures/tuning_float_height_adj_procedure.html (http://www.factorypro.com/tech_tuning_procedures/tuning_float_height_adj_procedure.html)
Quote from: humorless dp on September 12, 2010, 10:32:37 AM
Measure the distance with the float just sitting on the needle by it's own weight. You don't move anything to measure it. That will mean the needle is closed at 14mm.
dp = awesomeness
That is the best explanation in such a concise set of words.
You just helped me get my float levels set. I would buy you a beer right now.
[beer]
Quote from: citizin on September 12, 2010, 11:06:15 AM
dp = awesomeness
That is the best explanation in such a concise set of words.
You just helped me get my float levels set. I would buy you a beer right now.
[beer]
check around...
I drink vodka. :P
You are welcome. Keep us posted.
BTW...what were they set at?
well vodka it would be then...
they were at 16mm
Quote from: citizin on September 12, 2010, 11:11:19 AM
well vodka it would be then...
they were at 16mm
I don't think that's the issue, but I've been wrong before.
Are you sure your pilot jets are clear?
Check them before you button up the carbs.
Clear as vodka...
OK...so the floats are set...and all the jets are clear...
the pump is delivering enough fuel to fill the bowls...
The diaphragms are in good shape and the o-ring is in place...
it fires on ether and raw gas squirted into the bellmouths.
It ran on full choke but died when you released the choke.
The idle screws are set at 4 turns out.
It should be running.
No start or idle usually means a clogged pilot jet or vacuum leak. The pump works off the same vacuum the carbs work off and the pump is at least functioning.
I'm confused.
It didn't fully run on full choke - it would run for a sec, then die.
I put the carbs back on just now and got the engine to kick over and run for a sec, but then it gives a real rough and low idle that just sputters and then dies. I can back out the idle screws and it starts to sound better, but then it just dies again.
Are you using the choke/enrichener to start?
Yes, I have to. It's not getting any fuel in gear.
Quote from: citizin on September 12, 2010, 12:13:19 PM
Yes, I have to. It's not getting any fuel in gear.
What do you mean in gear?
Are you starting it and dropping it in gear and trying to ride off?
There is a screen where the fuel line connects to the carbs, check to see if it's got any crap in it.
Quote from: humorless dp on September 12, 2010, 12:15:55 PM
What do you mean in gear?
Are you starting it and dropping it in gear and trying to ride off?
No no, keeping it on the stand and putting it in first gear to switch to the main jets....
But good news is, it's running now. Got a spray bottle full of gasoline, put it in neutral with full choke and just sprayed gas through the carbs until it ran. I guess there was either some hidden water or clog that was preventing proper fuel movement.
Thanks a billion dp, koko, dan, howie, anyone else I missed. Quite a learning experience this was...
Quote from: citizin on September 12, 2010, 02:48:31 PM
No no, keeping it on the stand and putting it in first gear to switch to the main jets....
But good news is, it's running now. Got a spray bottle full of gasoline, put it in neutral with full choke and just sprayed gas through the carbs until it ran. I guess there was either some hidden water or clog that was preventing proper fuel movement.
Thanks a billion dp, koko, dan, howie, anyone else I missed. Quite a learning experience this was...
It was water. ;)
I told you to squirt gas in there. ;D
Glad to hear it's running. [thumbsup]
Yes you were right - Oh Mightee DP! [bow_down]
Quote from: citizin on September 12, 2010, 02:56:41 PM
Yes you were right - Oh Mightee DP! [bow_down]
I am not mighty...
I've just already been there. ;)
Either way...big thanks DP!
OMDP!
Hehehe [clap]
I've been following this thread with interest - it seemed to be water related, or my bet was on something not together right in the carbs.
Here's the thought - is it possible to flush the carbs with gas by opening the bowl drain screws and hitting the starter?
No because all you would really be doing is running the gas into the float bowls and right out the drain. It wouldn't be traveling through any of the jets.
Quote from: citizin on September 13, 2010, 02:03:48 PM
No because all you would really be doing is running the gas into the float bowls and right out the drain. It wouldn't be traveling through any of the jets.
Yup.
I think in hindsight I should have suggested some drygas or a fuel treatment for ethanol issues.
It would have solved your issue in 24 hours.
I've got some already added to the fuel to take care of any other problems that may be involving the fuel, but you were dead on about spraying gas down the carbs to get it going.
My main problem seemed to be getting the gas moving into the engine.
Quote from: citizin on September 13, 2010, 03:33:35 PM
<snip>
My main problem seemed to be getting the gas moving into the engine.
you mean getting something moving that would burn. ;)
[roll] [thumbsup]