Okay, I hate to ask this question because it is probably stupid, but I searched the archives and couldn't find any similar information.
My issue is that when I run the bike and get the oil warm and shut down the bike, the level is in the middle of the sight window...stays that way for at least an hour or more. Great. However, the next morning after the bike has sat and cooled, the oil level is well above the sight window. WTF? Is this indicative of a problem? Is there some sort of check valve for the oil cooler that is failing? Or do I have a blockage somewhere that isn't allowing the oil to drain back down?
You haven't said what bike, but I'd guess your vacuum petcock is filling the cases with gas.
If you have a bike w/ carbs...Don't run it until you get it fixed. The diluted oil won't protect your engine.
His sig line says a 02 900, so injected.
Quote from: yuu on September 15, 2010, 05:09:44 AM
His sig line says a 02 900, so injected.
I should look a little closer next time... [bang]
To the OP
Does the oil in the engine smell like gas at all?
Quote from: humorless dp on September 15, 2010, 05:12:12 AM
Does the oil in the engine smell like gas at all?
No, no gas. If I start and run the bike and warm it up, then shut down the oil level is fine again... until the next day.
The oil in the engine should drain back in less than an hour.
Most Monster coolers have the fittings on top so I wouldn't think it's the cooler draining although I guess as things cool some sort of siphon could occur. There is a check valve in the pump. Does your oil light go out immediately when you start?
You are checking the level with the bike level and upright...correct?
Quote from: humorless dp on September 15, 2010, 05:38:35 AM
The oil in the engine should drain back in less than an hour.
I haven't watched it closely to see how long it takes, but this statement
makes me hope makes it sound like it could be normal. When cold the level should/could be above the marks and/or window? I'll try warming it up tonight and check every 5-10 minutes thereafter.
Quote from: humorless dp on September 15, 2010, 05:38:35 AMMost Monster coolers have the fittings on top so I wouldn't think it's the cooler draining although I guess as things cool some sort of siphon could occur. There is a check valve in the pump. Does your oil light go out immediately when you start?
Yes, no problems with the oil light staying on.
Quote from: humorless dp on September 15, 2010, 05:38:35 AMYou are checking the level with the bike level and upright...correct?
Yes, the bike is parked on a center stand in my garage.
Thanks for the help so far!
Quote from: Teutonics on September 15, 2010, 06:04:16 AM
I haven't watched it closely to see how long it takes, but this statement makes me hope makes it sound like it could be normal. When cold the level should/could be above the marks and/or window? I'll try warming it up tonight and check every 5-10 minutes thereafter.
Yes, no problems with the oil light staying on.
Yes, the bike is parked on a center stand in my garage.
Thanks for the help so far!
Normally the cold level will be slightly lower.
How much oil do you put in the bike when you change it?
Quote from: humorless dp on September 15, 2010, 06:24:24 AM
How much oil do you put in the bike when you change it?
3.5ish quarts/liters. Not sure on the exact amount because I use the Rotella T6 synthetic in the gallon jug, and have some left in the bottle.
Oil change consists of warm the engine to get the oil hot, drain oil, and refill to below the low-level mark to account for expansion. Warm up engine and fill to recommended level. Everything is fine until the next day when it is over-full again. Start it up, warm it up, shut it down, and oil level is fine... until the next day.
My guess is siphon from the oil cooler, but is that normal? Is there a diagram of oil flow that I could reference to see where the check valve is in relation to the oil pump and oil cooler?
You're checking the oil level with the bike on it's wheels, right?
Quote from: Teutonics on September 15, 2010, 07:08:18 AM
3.5ish quarts/liters. Not sure on the exact amount because I use the Rotella T6 synthetic in the gallon jug, and have some left in the bottle.
Oil change consists of warm the engine to get the oil hot, drain oil, and refill to below the low-level mark to account for expansion. Warm up engine and fill to recommended level. Everything is fine until the next day when it is over-full again. Start it up, warm it up, shut it down, and oil level is fine... until the next day.
My guess is siphon from the oil cooler, but is that normal? Is there a diagram of oil flow that I could reference to see where the check valve is in relation to the oil pump and oil cooler?
My bike doesn't do it...
and I haven't seen any others do it.
I wouldn't call it normal.
There is a diagram of the oil circuit posted somewhere here in tech.
Are you checking the level with the bike verticle, both wheels on the ground then looking at the level the next morning with the bike on the center stand? The oil level will be slightly higher on the centerstand since the bike is no longer level.
Quote from: Teutonics on September 15, 2010, 07:08:18 AM
3.5ish quarts/liters. Not sure on the exact amount because I use the Rotella T6 synthetic in the gallon jug, and have some left in the bottle.
Oil change consists of warm the engine to get the oil hot, drain oil, and refill to below the low-level mark to account for expansion. [popcorn] Warm up engine and fill to recommended level. [popcorn] Everything is fine until the next day when it is over-full again. Start it up, warm it up, shut it down, and oil level is fine... until the next day.
My guess is siphon from the oil cooler, but is that normal? Is there a diagram of oil flow that I could reference to see where the check valve is in relation to the oil pump and oil cooler?
If you are refiling to level without letting the oil drain after you warmup, that could be the cause. Fill to level cold, warmup, and then let sit for a few minutes and check level. All with the bike on the centerstand.
Quote from: Speeddog on September 15, 2010, 07:10:42 AM
You're checking the oil level with the bike on it's wheels, right?
Not exactly, I have a center stand (not kickstand) on my bike.
Quote from: howie on September 15, 2010, 07:17:04 AM
Are you checking the level with the bike verticle, both wheels on the ground then looking at the level the next morning with the bike on the center stand? The oil level will be slightly higher on the centerstand since the bike is no longer level.
All checks are done on the center stand (not kickstand). The variance would be front to rear instead of side to side (very small, my back tire rubs the ground when on the CS), however the variable front/rear is constant so is not the cause of the change in level.
Quote from: 64duc on September 15, 2010, 07:50:11 AM
If you are refiling to level without letting the oil drain after you warmup, that could be the cause. Fill to level cold, warmup, and then let sit for a few minutes and check level. All with the bike on the centerstand.
Yes, this is what I do, although how long to let it sit is the question. I usually wait 10-15 minutes to refill, but wondering if I should be waiting overnight to refill to the proper level? I don't think so, because then the bike is cold.
It figures I would be the only one with this issue. My gut feeling is that it is the check valve letting the oil drain back from the cooler over an extended period of time.
The oil level will change with a variance in level front to rear.
Quote from: humorless dp on September 15, 2010, 08:24:56 AM
The oil level will change with a variance in level front to rear.
Yes, but it is a constant. The bike stays on the center stand, so is not the source of the issue.
Quote from: Teutonics on September 15, 2010, 08:29:35 AM
Yes, but it is a constant. The bike stays on the center stand, so is not the source of the issue.
I agree.
I figured you were checking on the center stand all the time, but I threw that in just in case. Yes the variance is small. Did you smell the crankcase for gas? You could have a leaking injector.
Here is some related wisdom from the late George Morrison:
battlecry:
Concerned about oil dilution. Checked the bike today and it looked like there was more oil than I thought I put in. So I siphoned out about 300cc of oil and have it set aside. I'd like to see if it is gas (rich mix) or I messed up the refill. Will the gas stratify out of the oil? Will it evaporate out? Any way to tell besides smelling it? Bike runs fine and plugs do not indicate a rich mixture.
Georgecls:
No, if gasoline is present it will not "settle out" or give any indication other than odor. There will be no "visible" indicator. You could have the engine oil analyized at a lab and the results will indicate positively if gasoline is or is not present in the oil. Cost of analysis is generally around $20; the oil analysis results will also provide levels of wear metals, additive treat levels, viscosity, etc.
And yes, if one does have an injector weeping badly, it will end up in the oil indicated as increased volume. The problem is that the excess gasoline washes down the cylinder wall, greatly increasing ring, piston and cylinder wall wear rates.
George Morrison, STLE CLS
battlecry:
Thanks for the reply, George. I had a thought that if I heat up the beaker gently with a light bulb for a few days I'd be able to tell by the reduced volume if it was fuel dilution. It probably is oil drain from the oil cooler but I'll keep an eye out for it.
Georgecls:
Once the fuel gets into chemical solution with engine oil, it is difficult to release from the oil.* It would be extremely rare to have any level of engine oil increase related to fuel dilution without the engine exhibiting some sort of corresponding symptom...* *As in big time roughness, inability ro idle, etc..* It would definitely not be a smooth running Ducati engine...* Small amounts of fuel dilution are normal; however, oil level changes would be undetectable..
George Morrison
Mine does exactly the same as yours when the weather is cold and it's filled to high level mark.Not so obvious when filled to low mark or midway. I have a centrestand.
I presume that the alloy cases shrink a bit when cold causing the oil level to rise.
Leaky injectors ? ? ? That's utter nonsense, once the ignition is switched off the pressure in the lines drops to zero.
Quote from: WTSDS on September 16, 2010, 03:16:47 AM
Mine does exactly the same as yours when the weather is cold and it's filled to high level mark.Not so obvious when filled to low mark or midway. I have a centrestand.
I presume that the alloy cases shrink a bit when cold causing the oil level to rise.
Leaky injectors ? ? ? That's utter nonsense, once the ignition is switched off the pressure in the lines drops to zero.
The thought that the cases shrink enough to raise the oil level seems as far fetched to me.
The spring in the pressure regulator keeps the fuel rail at 3 bar until it leaks down at the pump or at a leaky injector.
Be careful when working on your bike, WTSDS.
The OP claims there is no fuel smell from the cases.
So assuming a really, really badly leaking injector how much fuel would leak out before the pressure drops to zero after the pump stops, maybe a whole ml. ? Hardly enough to raise the oil level.
It is definitely not gas. The overfill goes away after warming up the engine and re-checking. The next day it shows over-full. Warm it up again and level shows normal on shut down.
Quote from: WTSDS on September 16, 2010, 03:38:28 AM
So assuming a really, really badly leaking injector how much fuel would leak out before the pressure drops to zero after the pump stops, maybe a whole ml. ? Hardly enough to raise the oil level.
fuel injectors can flow hundreds of ml/min...don't have a spec for the Duc specifically. The point is it's not as far fetched as you think.
good info on Duc flow rates here...http://www.robsdyno.com/injectors.htm (http://www.robsdyno.com/injectors.htm)
Quote from: Teutonics on September 16, 2010, 03:43:18 AM
It is definitely not gas. The overfill goes away after warming up the engine and re-checking. The next day it shows over-full. Warm it up again and level shows normal on shut down.
How long are you waiting after shut down to re-check?
I've heard condensation can build up to the point it will alter the oil level slightly. When you restart the engine are you letting it get warm enough to vaporize any water? I've never seen it happen and dismissed it as a text book engineer's paranoia but your situation seems strange
I don't know, but there is some oil in the crank case breather tank, which will return after "a while". If it's enough to mean anything - beyond me.