And read this. I don't want this to turn into anything that even remotely resembles politics, because that is not what this post is about. I know that several members on this forum either are, or were in the services and some of us have spent significant time in lands untold, doing untold things. A former boss of mine sent this to me and it rings so true that I had to share it. So please read and absorb what's written here, and take a moment to let it sink in. Thank you.
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http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/09/09/in-the-10th-year-of-war-a-harder-army-a-more-distant-america/ (http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/09/09/in-the-10th-year-of-war-a-harder-army-a-more-distant-america/)
<original post modified with the story being replaced by a link to the story>
No real problem with the post other than you cannot copy and paste copyrighted material.
A link and a blurb is all that's OK.
Can you modify your post please?
Good read. Lots of food for thought. [thumbsup]
Where's Julie? ;D
Quote from: rc51 on September 20, 2010, 03:18:36 PM
Where's Julie? ;D
Got the SC back from the shop, so the old name is back. [thumbsup]
Quote from: rc51 on September 20, 2010, 03:18:36 PM
Good read. Lots of food for thought. [thumbsup]
Where's Julie? ;D
+1 on both!
I am a vet. Here is another take on the issue:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/17/as-iraq-winds-down-us-arm_n_721821.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/17/as-iraq-winds-down-us-arm_n_721821.html)
I will not deny that the standards for admittance have slipped in the last few years, and a lot of the people that came in under those standards do not sync with the ethos of the professional warrior. Simply stated though, those that do "walk the walk" so to speak, do so to a different standard. It is getting quite difficult to smoothly integrate back into a society that many feel is based upon a rotting foundation after "going out" on multiple combat deployments.
I'm sure that has always been tough. No personal experience admittedly but I am not blind to the issues. Had some awesome talks with my elderly father in law who lived with us before he passed in November 2007. He was a decorated WWII vet who made the Normandy landing plus two more in Italy and Sicily. Bad shit. He wouldn't talk to my wife (his daughter) or sons about any of it but somehow saw fit to talk to me. I was honored by his willingness to talk to me of all people and not his kiddos. Must have been a nice distraction/distance from having to ever discuss it with his children. I was "safe" to talk to in his mind. No judgement, just awe and honor. He often spoke of trying to "fit in" after coming home and the difficulties he had. Nothing like seeing all of your friends killed on Normandy beach and not having your frineds back home know what that was like. Oh yeah... and looking forward to two more of those landings! [bang] Damn, just damn...
RIP Mark Adams
RIP Mr. Adams, and major respect goes out to your service and memory!
I was on those beaches one foggy morning back in 2004. Got there just as the sun was coming up, and the fog was rolling in across the break-water. It was REALLY eery, as the farmers just inland were starting up their tractors, and the fog masked the direction of the sound. Got goosebumps all over just imagining what it must have been like making your way onto the beach knowing good and well what was about to happen...
As I said... bad shit. My wife can't watch the beach scenes from Saving Private Ryan knowing her Dad went through that. He never got real deep. Just the guns he used, his friends that died and being pissed that he got strafed so many times by his own air cover! He didn't like pilots. No siree. Lost some good friends to friendly fire on those strafing runs and the hurt/pain/loss never left him. I'm sure the intel and communication back then was pretty iffy at best. Lots of mistakes. [bang]
I can't imagine what it's like to acclimate to a war zone (for months, let alone years), then try to rejoin "normal" life back home. It must be extremely difficult, and I can completely understand how many people would view normal life as utterly boring.
several folk at work came back and were completely unable to return to thier former lives
ended up being listed as 100% disabled
not from injury
but
from our complete lack of ability to understand and deal with them
and
from their complete lack of ability to understand and deal with us
the utter contempt that these guys had for us as civilians was shocking
even from the guys that were friends
as was the the severity that these guys were shunned by us due to not being able to comprehend anything that they were willing to share
it is beyond a shame
Everyone that comes back from a deployment is supposed to meet with a counselor (usually in a group setting) about getting back into the swing of things, particularly with your family. Some people have no issues getting back into their life pre-deployment.
A very informative article. It is spot on in its point that we civilians can't understand or grasp the reality of a soldier's life in war.
However, not all civilians shunned military life. At a point in about 2003 I was actively applying to get in. Just before submitting all my paperwork I tore my ACL on a ski trip. Air Force had no further interest in me at that point even though I was back to mountain bike racing 6 months later and had two aviation degrees. No medical waiver at the time for ACL reconstruction even in the Air Force.
Of course that doesn't change the fact that I can't relate to what someone's life has meant for the past 10 years. It does mean that when I say that I support our troops it needs to be more than a bumper magnet. I stand in awe each time I drive down 265 in Louisville and see all the signs welcoming specific groups of soldiers back to Fort Knox. I have to admit that I am relieved now to not share that burden. I no longer have any close friends being deployed. But I have noted significant changes in those that have come back. I'll use this article as a wake-up call to be on the lookout for more opportunities to actually help out vs. paying lip service of "support".
I myself have never served, I will admit, but I have had many many many friends and some family that have. I recogize and respect all that have served or are currently serving.
That being said, I think this is a recurring problem that we have had for years, when it comes to mental health of those who are cast into a situation that is sooooo different than when they are normally accustomed to and regardless of the period of time( whether it be 1 year or 10), they have a reasonable and understandable time of trouble in trying to revert back into a regular chain of progression/society/normality. This is because the life and the strife and stress and acclimation factors of the circumstances surrounding all aspects of that experience they have had to endure. I am probably creating a landmine somewhat with the comparison I am about to make, but it applies just the same. It applies because we do not have to capacity to fully engage and deal with the mental obstacles that come with these territories. The comparison that I am refferring to that, IMHO, is an exact parrrallel to this issue, is that of people whom have served serious prison time ( regardless of offense) and become institutionalized and have the exact same troubles transitioning back into society after having payed their debt. The worst part is, that fact that the mainstream populous generally doesn't want to admit that it is a problem that requires dealing with. Our soldiers whom come back from multiple tours, like what is referenced, are practically institutionalized in the same mental transition, but of a different way and circumstance. They have dealt with such diversly different and overly stressful changes, that it is not an easy reversion. I think it is quite frankly unfair to expect otherwise. We do it to ex-felons, we do/did it to Vets of different wars, and we do it to people of circumstance, like the homeless who are shellshocked (in a matter of speaking) and not exactly capable of shedding some of those developed by circumstance idosyncrosies. We, as a society-and somewhat ignorantly at that, expect them to overcome on their own. The help isn't supplied because it is publicly thought that it isn't of value or necessity. Our history is full of it, and I am quite frankly not exactly surprised that our soldiers coming home are suffering at the same hands as well also.
Quote from: Triple J on September 20, 2010, 06:15:44 PM
I can't imagine what it's like to acclimate to a war zone (for months, let alone years), then try to rejoin "normal" life back home. It must be extremely difficult, and I can completely understand how many people would view normal life as utterly boring.
It's not that you come home finding things boring. It's a lot deeper than that. It took a fair amount of time to "acclimate" back into things after my last trip out. More than anything I found that I had pretty much lost patience with (when seen through my eyes) the trivial concerns that most of my countrymen had. One day, shortly after returning, I witnessed one person make a complete jackass out of them self at a local coffee bar (because they had asked for two pumps of syrup damnit!!) and then another person raise hell at a waitress later that evening because they felt their dinner should have come out quicker. It was really frustrating, because as much as I wanted to walk up and tell these people how lucky they had it (the polite version of
SHUT THE make the beast with two backs UP WHY DON'T YOU), just for the ability to have these drinks/meals prepared for them, I knew they would never understand. Each time I "go out", and subsequently come back home, I find myself becoming more and more disappointed with what our society has become: too fat, dumb and happy with FAR to much a sense of self-entitlement.
We are becoming what ancient Rome rose to and then fell from.
Dolph
Quote from: DoubleEagle on September 21, 2010, 08:00:15 PM
We are becoming what ancient Rome rose to and then fell from.
Dolph
+1
would it be a far cry for to expect the citizens of our nation to "serve" in some capacity or other for to be considered a full citizen, maybe somewhat like what Sweden and Israel do for example. I am sure there are other nations that do it, but can't name them off the top of my head right now. I am not expecting anything like what Starship Troopers was getting at, but something to instill apon our citizens exactly how lucky we are, as Ben so eloquently put it.
Quote from: DRKWNG on September 21, 2010, 12:29:57 PM
It's not that you come home finding things boring. It's a lot deeper than that. It took a fair amount of time to "acclimate" back into things after my last trip out. More than anything I found that I had pretty much lost patience with (when seen through my eyes) the trivial concerns that most of my countrymen had. One day, shortly after returning, I witnessed one person make a complete jackass out of them self at a local coffee bar (because they had asked for two pumps of syrup damnit!!) and then another person raise hell at a waitress later that evening because they felt their dinner should have come out quicker. It was really frustrating, because as much as I wanted to walk up and tell these people how lucky they had it (the polite version of SHUT THE make the beast with two backs UP WHY DON'T YOU), just for the ability to have these drinks/meals prepared for them, I knew they would never understand. Each time I "go out", and subsequently come back home, I find myself becoming more and more disappointed with what our society has become: too fat, dumb and happy with FAR to much a sense of self-entitlement.
Why I don't talk much about 9/11...
how do you describe the psychological and emotional mechanics of irrevocable change in your personal life-perspective when
you watch hundreds of people jump or get pushed out of a skyscraper
and the rest get atomized?
or describe the sound of the airplanes' impact echoing in the streets?
or the sound of two skyscrapers collapsing on themselves?
or describe the agony of fading hope in the tear-streaked faces of the families
jamming flyers at you as you cross at the police barricade in the following days?
flyers with the smiling faces of their missing loved ones
The people I worked with that day and the weeks following, those who are still around, well we are alone together
trying to internally digest the perpetually indigestible...we don't review those days at all or speak of them
I totally identify with the sense of impatience/disgust when I see people tantrum or drown in the petty piss-puddle details of daily life
you want to slap them to their senses...it isn't their fault
they will never see or know what you have seen or known
I am not sure if my anger stems from their lack of understanding as to what is truly important in life
or if I am enraged and jealous
of the relative innocence they still have
probably both
Quote from: zooom on September 22, 2010, 02:07:50 AM
would it be a far cry for to expect the citizens of our nation to "serve" in some capacity or other for to be considered a full citizen, maybe somewhat like what Sweden and Israel do for example. I am sure there are other nations that do it, but can't name them off the top of my head right now. I am not expecting anything like what Starship Troopers was getting at, but something to instill apon our citizens exactly how lucky we are, as Ben so eloquently put it.
I don't think a mandatory 2 year service would be a bad thing...for both men and women. Seems to me it would give everyone some perspective, and it may also teach those that need it responsibility. I doubt it will ever happen though.
My understanding is France is another country that requires this.
Quote from: Triple J on September 22, 2010, 05:52:31 AM
I don't think a mandatory 2 year service would be a bad thing...for both men and women. Seems to me it would give everyone some perspective, and it may also teach those that need it responsibility. I doubt it will ever happen though.
My understanding is France is another country that requires this.
Several Asian country's have this as well.
This conversation is coming dangerously close to politics...
Quote from: duccarlos on September 22, 2010, 07:46:38 AM
This conversation is coming dangerously close to politics...
hence why I did NOT reply to triple J with the numerous reasons why it wouldn't go through in our society....
but that being said...I think public service doesn't mean politics in the sense we are treading around it...
I served from 1991 until 1999 and I can't fully relate to what these people have experienced.
I served and have PTSD The damage done to my brain is huge. A car back fires I freak ..... my heart beat increases, I get jumpy sometimes even hitting the deck.I am nervous a lot around strange noises. I dont sleep. I am awake........... alert a lot. I notice things that dont belong in areas, I notice smells. I notice a lack of women and their kids on a street. PTSD is a real problem for a lot of us. July 4th is the day from hell as soon as the sun goes down. I been there done that. lived it ,touched it,breathed it, smelled it, and as much as I try cannot forget it. I cannot forget that really bad day when it all went wrong for me...........That is a recurring theme for me at night , as that is when it happened all those years ago............Night.
Not asking for sympathies from anyone, just asking that maybe you can help out someone in your area when they return home. Mental anguish can happen a few short weeks after trauma or several years after. Its very real. If you have a family member serving please talk to them when they get home. If they seem withdrawn, quiet, afraid, have trouble re adjusting to life, those are super huge flags. Get them help ASAP as they may be on the road to their own personal hell. Its not pretty and no amount of alcohol or drugs will ever replace those feelings-ever.Get your loved ones help ASAP . Please.
I am sorry for your woes. I truly wish it wasn't so. I can say "I understand" but I will never truly be able to do so. It's not the same, but it's like trying to connect with a rape victim. I will never have any idea of their personal horror. I can say "I'm sorry and I understand" until I am blue in the face and in reality it doesn't mean shit. I guess I am enlightened in that sense. My thoughts just keep going back to my deceased father in law and the talks we had. For warriors there is no change, nothing is any different today than it was 65 years ago and beyond. My heart goes out to all of you who have served in combat and suffered. You are the heroes who walk among us. That will never change either. [thumbsup] Peace to you all.
This is a great thread. [clap]
bump for veterans day
I read this when it was posted and didn't have anything meaningful to add
now all I want to add to the dialogue is: Thank You!
Great article.
"I believe there is a tremendous amount of guilt in civilian society for not having participated in this war,''
I understand this.
the real problem is that the two sides, those that the two side of "those who serve" and those "who do not" have a hard time seeing it from the other perspective because like others say, "once you have served and fought, you are no longer the same after"
the problem is the civilians think "they should just go back to normal" and get on with their lives and don't want to hear that it will be very difficult or be burdened with guilt or the fixing of the issues.
the ones that served and are changed, really can't get the civilians to understand 100% how they feel and changed, afterall nobody can really tell someone what is going on 100% of the time accurately to another person, its just too hard. like the situation in the coffee shop someone mentioned.
so there will be this miscommunication between the two groups.
Its truly sad, but hopefully each can "live with" the other at best case scenario.
Unfortunately, most of the time those that serve are always given "respect" by civilians, but at the same time they are somewhat forgotten about soon after the pleasentries are exchanged.
Thanks go out to Veterans that have served in any capacity. You will probably never know the true thanks people think or feel for your work and dedication, but know that all still respect you for the job you do.
I remember reading this back when it was originally posted. The portion that bothered me most:
"Army Capt. Stefan Hutnik, a company commander in Afghanistan, recalls being home from a combat tour and being told by his wife, as they were headed out to a family dinner, please don't talk about the Army or the war.
"But,'' he said sadly, "I don't have anything else to talk about.'' "
Not wanting to sound inflammatory, but what aspect of that bothers you? Depending on what unit he is/was in, he could have easily been on his second (or third) 15-18 month tour down there. Spending that much time in an environment like that pretty much consumes you.
Quote from: sbrguy on November 10, 2010, 10:11:01 PM
Unfortunately, most of the time those that serve are always given "respect" by civilians, but at the same time they are somewhat forgotten about soon after the pleasentries are exchanged.
So what can those of us that haven't served do? How can I let these men/women know that I appreciate what they do almost every single day. I have stopped people on the metro and thanked them but I also know that isn't enough.
Any suggestions?
Quote from: DRKWNG on November 11, 2010, 04:40:42 AM
Not wanting to sound inflammatory, but what aspect of that bothers you?
The fact that his wife didn't want him talking about it. How could he not?
Quote from: DRKWNG on November 11, 2010, 05:45:57 AM
Buy me a beer? ;D
My pleasure! I'd even cook you dinner sometime! ;D
Quote from: Speedbag on November 11, 2010, 05:46:57 AM
The fact that his wife didn't want him talking about it. How could he not?
Gotcha. Thought you were going the other way with it, sorry.
It's true though, and one of the really sad parts about the entire situation. Not even the closest people in a service member's life can even begin to relate to what they have seen and been through, and that ultimately drives a wedge into their relationships...
Quote from: DRKWNG on November 11, 2010, 05:49:16 AM
It's true though, and one of the really sad parts about the entire situation. Not even the closest people in a service member's life can even begin to relate to what they have seen and been through, and that ultimately drives a wedge into their relationships...
I can remember my ex telling me that his father who had been in the Marines, would not talk about being in Japan. Ever.