Ducati Monster Forum

Well, all you plastic tankers... expect even more expansion in your future

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/12/AR2010101206905.html (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/12/AR2010101206905.html)

I'm going to buy Caswell stock.

Thems are fightin words  >:(  >:( >:(

Hur? I'm missing something...

I don't think the cars he works on like it any more than our bikes do...

ethanol that is.

Though it was about Caswell stock.

Shed a little light on Caswell for me please? It's not the metal plating folks is it?

Yeah...

they also make an epoxy based coating that purportedly sticks to plastic and eliminates plastic tank deformation.

There's a bunch of info in the stickied tank thread.

Got it. Haven't been keeping on that thread since my tank isn't plastic... but I do like to be in the know. Perhaps a little back reading.

On a related note - have the new tanks (696, 1100 etc)  been expanding?

You do have some reading to do.... :P

http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=43401.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=43401.0)

I need more coffee apparently - as I did read that earlier today. Hmmm, yay memory

buy some VP100 for when you store the bike over the winter.....don't want to leave ethanol on it...

http://www.vpracingfuels.com/page469685.html (http://www.vpracingfuels.com/page469685.html)

???

VP 100 is oxygenated...

with ethanol.

shit....that stuff didn't used to...damnit...guess it's time to go back to getting good ole fashioned CAM2 to do the job...

It just blows my mind.

Folks need to start lobbying their state houses to pass laws providing for ethanol-free option at the pump.

I am fine with "alternative" fuels, but provide choice.  I would happily spend 10-15% more for pure gas.

There are times when I really love having a steel tank!!

especially relevent to PA readers, and sheetz customers:

Due to the Renewable Fuels Standard being implemented by our Federal 
Government through the Environmental Protection Agency, it has become 
more and more uneconomic to offer pure conventional gasoline.  This 
fall, the pipeline which supplies much of our state's fuel supply will 
only be shipping gasoline blendstock (as opposed to conventional 
gasoline).  This means "ethanol free gas" will no longer be an option 
for anyone supplied off of that pipeline.  This type of gasoline 
requires ethanol to be blended into it prior to sale to the consumer.   
  On August 19th, a refinery north of you that supplies much of 
northwest PA announced that they will only be producing E10 as well.

So in summary: many areas of the country will be unable to offer 
ethanol free gas going forward.  I would be curious to know if your 
small town store will be able to continue their offering into the 
fall...  We've found that even in the areas where ethanol free gas is 
possible, it is not economic to offer for sale.

I'm sorry, but for the foreseeable future, we can only offer you E10 gasoline.

Info on the RFS can be found here:
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/fuels/renewablefuels/index.htm (http://www.epa.gov/otaq/fuels/renewablefuels/index.htm)

There are a number of groups currently lobbying to have this standard 
expanded to 15% or higher...

Regards,
Karl Diethrick
Scheduler
Sheetz Petroleum Supply
W: 814-941-5537
C: 814-931-1703
F: 814-239-1333
kdiethrick@sheetz.com<mailto:kdiethrick@sheetz.com>
Yahoo ID: karld1

that was from a month or two ago....

great...
looks like that $2500 aluminum tank is closer in my future than i thought...
not to mention my new car will run like shit i suppose.

moron lobbyists.

not if they have stock in plastics manufacturing and R&D....

I wrote my Senators who are responsible for this mess (Iowa being a corn state and all).

**************************

Re:  EPA 15% ethanol

I am concerned that the new proposal of 15% ethanol will have an overall negative impact on the environment.   I know first hand of many incompatibilities with ethanol gas and plastic gas tanks.  My experience is with a Ducati motorcycle and a Nissan car both having tank deformation caused by ethanol gas.  They need new replacement tanks.  I appreciate alternative energy research and progress, but please make sure there are choices for consumers who want to use fuels that were blended the way the engine engineers intended to prevent premature problems.  I am afraid there will not be choices, and these new fuels will inevitably get mixed into systems not designed for them.


************************

mitt

Corn prices are on the rise... now is not the time to mandate this...
Not only will food supplies be strained, but the cost of the fuel will rise accordingly. add the costs of the problems this is causing the vehicles.. it's just  [bang]

http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/food/2008-02-11-food-prices_N.htm (http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/food/2008-02-11-food-prices_N.htm)

"•Government mandates for biofuels. In a bid to reduce oil dependence, many countries are requiring additional use of biofuels, such as ethanol and biodiesel. That, in turn, competes with food destined for the table — and increases the prices of what consumers eat.

Partly because of the U.S. energy bill requiring increased use of corn-based ethanol, farmers have planted less soybeans and wheat. Winter wheat plantings rose 3.6% this year, even with high prices, vs. an expected 8%, according to Merrill Lynch.

"We've not really had anything like the situation we've had today," says Bruce Babcock, head of Iowa State University's Center for Agricultural and Rural Development. "The reason why this won't be over as quickly as other price shocks … is that biofuels mandates are increasing at the same time that countries are being signaled to grow more."
"

Well the EPA went ahead and approved E15 for 2007 and newer vehicles, no real surprise there. What will make a big difference is when they release their recommendation on 2001-2006 vehicles, late November. If they give the green light on those, then I see a good chance that retailers might start offering E15, if they do not then I think many will stay with E10.

It's not like that corn is farmed on hybrid machines. Diesel (more than likely not biodiesel) harvests corn, hauls it to the processor and trucks it to the gas station. This isn't about "green" technology, it's about the old-fashioned green.

What isn't in the real world?

diesel tractors, diesel combines, diesel pickers, etc..

who was it that posted the whole process of converting corn to ethanol and showed it wasted far more energy, created far more air pollution, than it saved?

ethanol is a great idea!  if it magically comes from my ass and doesn't make the beast with two backs up engines not made for it and is free and doesn't pollute etcetc etc

IF ONLY!

You hit the nail on the head.  It sucks when I have a customer with a brand new $100+k car and it doesn't run right because of crap gas.  Then we come to our beloved Ducatis that go through tanks every year or two.  Now it looks like it will get worse.

When I was still dealing with cars I used to refer to E10 problems as "alcohol poisoning".  Um...doesn't distilling use fuel?

um YEAH... 

but we can use ethanol for the fuel for distillation and it becomes a perpetual motion machine!!

<blockquote>diesel tractors, diesel combines, diesel pickers, etc..

who was it that posted the whole process of converting corn to ethanol and showed it wasted far more energy, created far more air pollution, than it saved?

ethanol is a great idea!  if it magically comes from my ass and doesn't make the beast with two backs up engines not made for it and is free and doesn't pollute etcetc etc

IF ONLY!
</blockquote>
Those studies are decades old.  Modern ethanol processes are net energy producers.  How much energy varies by process and feedstock, corn being one of the least efficient.  Sugar cane on the other hand is fantastic.  There are promising processes being developed in producing cellulosic ethanol (using the entire plant not just the corn kernel for instance) and ethanol from algae that could change the ethanol game completely and reduce production costs and boost efficiency by large amounts. 
Corn ethanol wouldn't be as popular as it is if it weren't for big agribusiness like Archer Daniels Midland and Monsanto pushing for subsidies.  So yeah its all about the money, and (surprise surprise) not really about the environment. 
I guess the American thing to do would be to go into business making aftermarket fuel system components that can handle ethanol and make this problem make us rich.

have a friend who managed an ethanol plant in KS.  you wouldn't believe the problems and costs.  funny thing is they couldn't transport the stuff to refineries because they needed a liquor license/permit.... [clap]

even if all of that is true, it still remains that ethanol is a crappy fuel source for internal combustion engines (ICE).  among liquid fuels, it has nearly the lowest energy per cc..

at a time when the gov is considering increasing MPG requirements for cars, switching to more ethanol is a bad idea.

and never mind the fact that so far, introducing ethanol/E10/gasohol has just destroyed engines and gas tanks in the USA. 

I guess someone wanted to get rid of all the old cars and bikes -- now they did it.

exactly the real money now is in developing aftermarket add ons and parts to counteract the ethanol, do that for a cheaper price or something like an "in line fuel filter" type of thing or something that would be an easy fix and you my friend have just become a billiionare.

One thing that >blows< my mind is the ethanol industry has been trying to get diesel to be polluted/enriched with ethanol as well.  Yes, it can be done and yes, it works for the most part.

However, given ethanol's hydrophilic nature AND the fact that all alcohols are solvents, putting it in your diesel engine would be idiocy.  Diesel injectors on any vehicle will simply die if there is too much water moisture in the fuel and part of the advantage of diesel is that the fuel is a lubricant, not a solvent (part of why diesel engines last a million years and oil changes are 2-5x the duration of gasoline engines). 

I am fine with 100% ethanol being sold as a fuel, I have been to brasil and they have cars running it which are doing just fine.  I can't see why we can't just sell ethanol-only cars alongside gasoline cars and let the consumer decide.

Seems to me it would be a great opportunity for the car companies, given the small modifications needed on a gasoline engine.

Much of the lubricity of diesel fuel has been lost due to the removal of most of the sulphur.

On older diesel engines with rotary style pumps an additive is recommended to increase the lubricating properties of the fuel to prior levels.

The EPA spends a lot of time to make sure fuel vapor does not escape from fuel systems, you would think that raw gas leaking out on the ground and into lakes would be a concern for them.  If they mandate ethanol then free markets and freedom of choice seem like hollow words.  Sen. Jim Inhofe is working on a bill to exempt Oklahoma from a Federal ethanol mandate.  I think it goes like - oil is produced in Oklahoma, gas is refined in Oklahoma, there is no interstate commerce involved so the Feds shouldn't have any say in the matter.  I hope he is successful.  I've read of new-ish cars developing fuel leaks from warped fittings - and like our tanks (originally) it is said to not be an ethanol problem.  I can see a lot of Sta-bil being burned in my vehicles in the future.  I wonder what a case of that stuff costs -

I hate to tell you this, but even aluminum fuel tanks are showing problems long run with ethanol exposure.  But it will take many many years for the problems to show. 

Almost all of the old Ferrari / Alfa and vintage racecars with aluminum fuel tanks at the shop are showing etching due to the new fuels.  Ditto for some vintage motorcycles with aluminum tanks with fuel stored in them.

I can almost see the day upcoming we will have to treat "gasoline" like we do alcohol or methanol fuel -- drain the tanks when the vehicle isn't in use to prevent corrosion problems to tank, fuel lines and other fuel based systems. 

Also those with carbies -- you don't want to see what this new gasoline does to the small parts inside the carb that weren't designed for these chemicals.  New fuelies don't have as bad a problem due to newer manufacturing materials used within.

Yes, this is a real issue, too. I know the Yamaha outboard on my old sailboat has had frequent carb fouling problems and the mechanic feels is directly attributable to the ethanol in the fuel. I fear for my '97 M900's carbs.

what a racket.

Vote early and vote often.






 [bang]

Oh, and another thing...............Thank you, Frosty, for my awesome, shiny, POR-15 coated, steel tank.




 [beer]
 [drink]
 [clap]
 [bow_down]
 [moto]

You're welcome...

maybe we'll get lucky and the ethanol won't eat the rest of the fuel system. ;)

Some of the lubricative properties are gone, but diesel is naturally a light lube, not a solvent.  I've been following fleet owners' issues with diesel engines and very few have had problems with ULSD.

The big problem has been with biodiesel blends above 5% due to the higher solvent content of biodiesel.

That's true about diesel.

Most fleet owners run newer rigs with modern injection systems that aren't affected by the reduced lubricity of low sulphur fuel.

My old tractor has the kind of system that is.

The new bio-diesel just adds to the nightmare.

It will eventually become an issue with home heating oil IMO as those systems use rotary style pumps. I've already had problems with freeze ups at home.

Why the hell are you running road diesel then?  You can still buy off-road dyed stuff for that tractor and your home use.  I saw pumps near Luray this weekend with off-road diesel for $2.39/gallon!!!!  sheesh, i filled up my TDI, it ran awesome all the way home...

Simple availability...and the fact I run the tractor to occasional mowing/tilling jobs.

My tractor has a glass sediment bowl that makes it easy to see the dye color. It isn't worth the fine, and the local constabulary has nothing better to do than break balls.

Don't get caught with that stuff in your tank on the road. ;)

i don't have a glass sediment bowl and the exhaust poops out black soot no matter what i put in it.. i ran a little bit of kerosene last winter, like 1:20, it ran like a top.

I don't think kero is illegal.

They're probably screwing with that too. [laugh]

Remember when vw's solution to winter start up was 10% gasoline?

I know a guy that has run 10% kero in every car he's ever owned, cat or not, and has never had an issue with anything. He swears by it.

so if we mix our own gas will the ATF or FBI come after us for bootlegin the fuel we need?  ;D

There's a fairly large alcohol plant about fifty miles from me. Smells nice. Sure wish it was making booze instead of industrial/fuel alcohol.


Probably the EPA, but yes. :P

(*checks the boiling points of ethanol and gasoline*)

Wonder if you could run a small still/refinery in a shed, and boil the alcohol out of your gas?

It'd be a huge fire hazard, and very illegal, but hey... [cheeky]

You can make your own fuel at home, you just have to make sure you are complying with state and federal laws (only ethanol implicates federal laws).

I know in Maryland you have to pay the state tax on all biodiesel you make.  A Baltimore station interviewed a guy who made his own bio-D and he was talking about how much he made -- apparently, SDAT went after him and charged him back taxes on the fuel!

But I don't know why you'd want to make ethanol anyhow unless you have an alky burner bike or car.  It really is a crappy fuel.

If you take Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel straight from the refining unit and rub it between your fingers it now feels more like gasoline than the old diesel you know. In fact so much of the lubricating properties are now refined out of ULSD that refiners have to add lubricity improvers to bring them back up to spec.

the marketing has begun:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/racing/wires/10/16/3010.ap.car.nascar.e15.fuel.2nd.ld.writethru.0664/ (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/racing/wires/10/16/3010.ap.car.nascar.e15.fuel.2nd.ld.writethru.0664/)

God, what a load of bullshit.  I find it funny they are talking about moisture issues.

WELL YEAH

just to pull an important passage

"Bob Owens, senior vice president of Sunoco, said development was a tricky process of overcoming reactions that occur when the ethanol and hydrocarbon are mixed and come into moisture from humidity or rain. A second issue was developing a strict chain of custody from mixture to the gas cans at the race track. The cans must be altered to eliminate any possibility of moisture contaminating the fuel.

"We didn't just take Sunoco race fuel and dump 15 percent ethanol on top of it,'' Owens said. "We did a significant amount of testing, and research of our own prior to getting it to the teams for their testing to ensure that we had the proper blend.

"Worst case: seamless transition. The best case, we were not surprised to hear of a little bit of horsepower gain.''

NASCAR vice president of competition Robin Pemberton said some teams already have tested the new fuel. It's too soon to determine how much of a horsepower gain teams noticed, but the fuel mileage effects were minimal, Pemberton said."

So I get from this. The can't store it without moisture being introduced. They get worse gas mileage. There is a bit more power.

Short answer: There's no reason other than propaganda to make the change. Also, I can't say whether this change has improved anything, but I can say that the second mansion I bought with the kickback money is amazing.

Excellent summary

that was my first thought as well.  [thumbsup]

Given that they are having a hard time blending enough ethanol, I am surprised that they didn't just switch to E85 or E100.

NASCAR's primary business is marketing.  Sunoco can't sell E100 to anyone because no one runs it in their cars.  They're only going to co-brand with someone who has a product because that's how they get sponsorship -- consumers.

Also, E100 has other issues (legal) such as the fact that it is drinkable -- 100% alcohol.  Part of the reason they keep a 15% gasoline component (E85) is to keep the mixture poisonous so bums don't go buy a gallon of E100 and suck it down.

Imagine $2.50/gallon for 200 Proof PGA.

Didn't seem to stop Indy Car racing making the switch to Ethanol 3 years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IndyCar_Series#Ethanol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IndyCar_Series#Ethanol)

The mixture was actually 98% ethanol and 2% gasoline, provided by Lifeline Foods of Saint Joseph, Missouri. The additives satisfied the U.S. government's demand that the alcohol be unfit for human consumption, and adding visible color in case of a fire.

Yes I know denatured ethanol contains 1.9% or more  of non drinkable additives. Still didn't stop Indy cars from running essentially pure ethanol. OK so lets call it E98 instead of E100, to those of us in the fuel industry it's just called fuel grade ethanol.
Nascar could still run E85 if they wanted to promote a fuel that is already commercially available. To me it would make more sense to promote E85 which can be readily used in Flexfuel vehicles, rather than E15 which may or may not be compatible with most vehicles

Indycars were using pure methanol for the last 40 years -- 1961? -- the switch isn't that big of a deal for them.  They aren't racing cars that are ostensibly (but falsely) based on production cars.  And yes, NASCAR doesn't race cars that are remotely production homologs, but that's what they say anyhow.

I agree that Indycar's switch from Methanol to Ethanol might not have been a big a leap but it was done. Nascar could easily make the switch to E85 or fuel grade ethanol, as Sunoco owns an ethanol plant. Either grade could easily be supplied and they could still get the commercial tie in, and do the whole "green" or made in the USA promotions.

Yeah, I can see that. I think it is mainly because of the new EPA regs and trying to show it is a viable fuel.  E85 could have been done as well, but there is probably SOME reason.

Who couldn't see this happening:
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE69E4BF20101015 (http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE69E4BF20101015)

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/top-stocks/blog.aspx?post=00000065-0000-0000-2fb7-1b0000000000 (http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/top-stocks/blog.aspx?post=00000065-0000-0000-2fb7-1b0000000000)

So ethanol is mandated and the corn crop shrinks dramatically.

I have seen news reports here in OZ of food prices dramatically rising in some developing countries because farmers were getting a better price for their crops from fuel companies. It was reported that the shortage of food put otherwise surviving communities in danger of famine.
The news reports raised the spectre of third world grain being used to fuel first world vehicles, with serious consequences for struggling communities.

We too are seeing the proliferation of E10. I hope we aren't contributing to global poverty down here. I understand our sugar farmers are starting to diversify so I hope it's only our local sugar cane being used. OZ had massive sugar cane plantations and since sugar is going out of fashion in food it is an opportunity for the farmers in our Northern states. Some have said that we have similar potential to Brazil to go alcohol fuel. They better make it undrinkable. :D

I think my new FCRs should be able to handle moonshine fuel, but I'm worried my fuel pump won't. I expect the diaphragms to dissolve if I regularly use E10. That is only an assumption I have made from reading about fuel pump failures in the US. In my mind I have linked the use of E10 fuels with some of the problems you guys in the States report. That may or may not be accurate on my part.

Famine, another reason why moonshine fuels are bad IMO.

IMO Ethanol was a short-sighted political solution for our energy woes.
It allows politicians to say they are doing something about dependency on oil, that they are helping farmers earn more money and, depending on emissions, say they are doing something for the environment.

In reality, it's creating food shortages and raising prices, will push the small farmer out as soon as the corporate farmers can get the government to create more subsidies for it, will not lower our oil consumption, has created a lot of mechanical problems for vehicle owners and it's still burning something, so there are emissions of some sort.

There are so many problems that will come from pushing E15, not the least of which will be as NASCAR  put it, storage issues. There is no long term testing on what it does to the fuel systems of vehicles not designed for it. So far we know of the tank expansion.. but what are the other concerns?

Sometimes, I wish the politicians would freaking listen to people both the engineers and the common man.

part of the problem is that they have listened to engineers and "common" men, many of whom are blinded by politics.

what engineer would sign off on a fuel product that is going to be put in ALL sorts of vehicles and not test it on all different kinds of storage tanks, fuel lines, seals, pumps, etc.
this stuff is pretty much poison to a fuel system IMO. tanks swelling, rubber deteriorating, etc.

someone getting paid off by the corn industry?  duh!   ;D

First station here in Iowa to carry the E15 AND E30!!!


http://www.kcrg.com/news/local/Vinton-station-dispensing-E15-through-new-blender-pump-105518523.html (http://www.kcrg.com/news/local/Vinton-station-dispensing-E15-through-new-blender-pump-105518523.html)

mitt

what the hell runs E30??

goddam Iowa cornholeers

If they can set up blender pumps to dispense % on the fly, then allow people to buy G100 (E0) gasoline!!

You guys in the corn producing states are totally F@(ked.  They are going to force as much ethanol down your tanks as they can - I heard the ethanol producers are trying to get some kind of immunity to lawsuits for damage to engines and fuel systems.  Do you think they will get it?

I guess all the flex fuel vehicles that can't find E85 [bang]

Back when not too many states were mandated to run oxygenated fuel (MBT back then) I filled my car G100 (E0)  More midrange power and better fuel economy was the result.  The difference would be more dramatic with E10. 

I am starting to think all these different blends should have different shape fuel nozzles, so E15 doesn't go into a year 2000 car.  The majority of people will NOT know the difference or read the label closely (I don't blame them). 

Fuel suppliers should be forced to use the old square peg in round hole trick.  I know diesel pumps are physically larger diameter, so it can't go into a gas tank, but that doesn't really work vice versa though.


mitt

The diesel pumps around here use different size nozzles depending on pump flow rate.

You can put diesel in a car, or gas in a diesel.

I think if people don't know what their vehicle runs on then they should have the trouble and expense related.