Good readin' - MotorTrend takes out the Volt and puts it through its paces: link here (http://blogs.motortrend.com/6719595/green/127-mpg-this-volt-story-must-be-told/index.html)
That's great news! [thumbsup]
I thought it was going to be a case of:
(http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/6000sux.jpg)
Impressive
Too bad they don't tell you how many times they charge the battery, nor what the mileage is during charge sustaining (CS) mode.
A little different story: http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/10/motor-trend-reveals-the-secret-to-getting-127-mpg-in-chevy-volt/ (http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/10/motor-trend-reveals-the-secret-to-getting-127-mpg-in-chevy-volt/)
So how do they correlate battery use with MPG?
Quote from: Speedbag on October 14, 2010, 03:50:55 PM
So how do they correlate battery use with MPG?
The epa has a formula. Not sure how much science/truth is behind it though.
mitt
Quote from: mitt on October 14, 2010, 04:42:53 PM
The epa has a formula. Not sure how much science/truth is behind it though.
mitt
They haven't released it yet, have they?
and? It's still a freaking $40,000 car. There are two people who will buy one: A) those who have money to throw away i.e. household incomes over $150k B) total dumbassess who failed 6th grade math.
At least the Nissan Leaf is approaching sensibility at $33k.
Go buy a Camaro at $22k and one would be hard pressed to spend $18k worth of gas over ten years. Now $11k worth of gas is definitely feasible and just breaks parity cost to own with the Leaf.
Quote from: Drjones on October 14, 2010, 05:39:07 PM
and? It's still a freaking $40,000 car. There are two people who will buy one: A) those who have money to throw away i.e. household incomes over $150k B) total dumbassess who failed 6th grade math.
At least the Nissan Leaf is approaching sensibility at $33k.
Go buy a Camaro at $22k and one would be hard pressed to spend $18k worth of gas over ten years. Now $11k worth of gas is definitely feasible and just breaks parity cost to own with the Leaf.
You forgot to factor in the $2K for the high voltage charger ($490 plus installation).
Not to mention the car is the size of a Corolla.
You could wait until 2012 and get a Plug-In Prius.
and if you plug it into your house? light bill goes up how much? yea where are the savings?
Quote from: cokey on October 14, 2010, 07:12:33 PM
and if you plug it into your house? light bill goes up how much? yea where are the savings?
that can vary as well.
depends on when you charge the car (many utilities have discounts for "off-peak" usage - i.e., nighttime).
some utilities have tiered rates based on usage levels.
will also depend on how often you charge it up!
true.. only thing i don't understand is though, most of these batteries these green cars use, make more polution in their creation then my car without a cat does in 20 years..
Plug the car in at work and stick it to the man! Better yet, mount a wind turbine to the roof and run the gen to the battery array. Perpetual motion solved.
Quote from: redxblack on October 14, 2010, 08:55:54 PM
Better yet, mount a wind turbine to the roof and run the gen to the battery array. Perpetual motion solved.
That sounds crazy enough to work!
Yeah, they did not necessarily fudge the numbers, but the didn't disclose everything up front either. I guess it is a hard thing to measure using the conventional MPG model.
But, this is how cost breaks down. Assuming gas is about $2.70/gallon and electricity is $.10/kwh:
Total cost per mile for the 300 miles of their test = $.036/mile. That is equivalent to about a 75MPG ICE car.
In electric only mode, it costs about $.02/mile to run - in dollars/mile, that is about the same as a car getting 135 MPG. By way of comparison, the Prius gets about 50MPG combined, which works out to about $.054/mile.
Quote from: Drjones on October 14, 2010, 05:39:07 PM
At least the Nissan Leaf is approaching sensibility at $33k.
After the tax credit, the Volt will be $33.5k. No word on tax credits if any for the Leaf.
Quote from: cokey on October 14, 2010, 07:12:33 PM
and if you plug it into your house? light bill goes up how much? yea where are the savings?
It is a 8kwh battery, and electricity is about $.10/kwh depending on where you are, so that's $.80/charge. Assuming you charge and drive 40 miles every day that's another $24/mo. Potentially, depending on your driving habits, that is all you pay in fuel.
One thing I find interesting, none of these car Companies want to Discuss battery life (as in years of life)
Will they last 2 years, 5 years, 10 years? and how much of a job is it to replace it? can the battery be
recycled? and the biggest question.. How much is said battery?
I sent an Email to Toyota Australia and to the Local Dealer asking the Question about Battery replacement
in the new Hybrid Camry sold here in Australia, 3 weeks later I get a letter thanking me for my query and a
nice glossy brochure and the contact details of my local dealer so I can go for a test drive.
When the Dealer contacted me I asked the same question, was promised a return call with the answer to my
Query, 2 months later and no response.
Surely someone knows the answer to this simple question?
I asked the same thing with the battery in the Cayenne Hybrid. I was told the battery is designed to last the life of the car. They don't tell us the life expectancy of the car though. 200k? 300k? In the cayenne the battery is easy enough to replace but its not something you do yourself. The cost of the battery is over $8000US. Yes it is recyclable.
Dunno if this answers the question, but hybrid components (including the battery) are warrantied to 100k - looking at the Prius forums, there are owners there with an excess of 300k miles with the original battery.
http://www.toyota.com/prius-hybrid/warranty.html (http://www.toyota.com/prius-hybrid/warranty.html)
I think the most meaningful measurement when it comes to batteries is the amount of charge cycles they can complete before they weaken or die, but that doesn't really get you to a year or mile estimate. If you want one of those, you probably won't get one from Toyota, but then you won't get one on an ICE car either? I get what you are asking there, but I think in the case of any engine, the answer will be "it depends".
Toyota has a recycling program - evidently their goal is to get each one of the batteried back.
I subscribe to Home Power - a great magazine for anyone interested in Alt Energy. It had an article about someone repairing their older prius battery pack. Not for the novice mechanic, but definitely doable. He tested every cell individually and 90% of the pack was still in great shape, but 10% of the cells took a dump. He replaced those 10%, and basically got a refurbed $3000 pack for like $150 since he DIY.
mitt
Quote from: SpankyDuc on October 14, 2010, 10:02:26 PM
One thing I find interesting, none of these car Companies want to Discuss battery life (as in years of life)
Will they last 2 years, 5 years, 10 years? and how much of a job is it to replace it? can the battery be
recycled? and the biggest question.. How much is said battery?
I sent an Email to Toyota Australia and to the Local Dealer asking the Question about Battery replacement
in the new Hybrid Camry sold here in Australia, 3 weeks later I get a letter thanking me for my query and a
nice glossy brochure and the contact details of my local dealer so I can go for a test drive.
When the Dealer contacted me I asked the same question, was promised a return call with the answer to my
Query, 2 months later and no response.
Surely someone knows the answer to this simple question?
Here in the states, the Toyota Hybrid Synergy Drive components (including the Nickel Metal Hydride batteries) are covered under warranty for 8yrs/100K miles (10yrs/150k in Kalifornia). Even with that amount of coverage, our replacement rate is extremely low. As mitt mentioned, they are made of a number of cells that can be individually replaced. Yes, we recover each battery and it is recycled.
The Volt, however, uses a Lithium Ion battery pack. I don't have any info on it's warranty.
Another thing that isn't widely talked about is the level of charge the manufacturers will use for the hybrid batteries.
Some deplete the hybrid battery lower than others and others may charge it higher.
This definitely has an positive impact on fuel economy, but more importantly, can have a negative effect on battery life.
Or.....how long it will be until the electric companies start raising prices essentially making the cost for electric the same as for fuel.....ooooor how much more pollution will be made by electric companies while trying to supply our demands for "green" energy.
:-\
While I hopeful that it works and changes the market (I'd buy one), I just hope the same doesn't happen to the Volt as the EV1.
(http://i.treehugger.com/files/th_images/crushed-ev1-01.jpg)
Quote from: Monster Dave on October 15, 2010, 09:10:09 AM
Or.....how long it will be until the electric companies start raising prices essentially making the cost for electric the same as for fuel.....ooooor how much more pollution will be made by electric companies while trying to supply our demands for "green" energy.
I feel like the EV shill. I'm not really. I also feel like the only person here that owns a calculator :)
Energy prices would have to more than double for a plug-in EV to be as expensive to run as gas. That assumes a scenario where electricity prices shoot up, and gasoline stays the same.
No matter how you slice it, power supplied by the grid will produce at least half as much CO2 than cars per mile traveled.
Quote from: il d00d on October 14, 2010, 09:43:50 PM
After the tax credit, the Volt will be $33.5k. No word on tax credits if any for the Leaf.
That doesn't help the argument. It just shows how pathetic GM is that it needs to steal 16% of the car's value in public money to make it competitive.
Quote from: il d00d on October 15, 2010, 09:16:23 AM
I feel like the EV shill. I'm not really. I also feel like the only person here that owns a calculator :)
Energy prices would have to more than double for a plug-in EV to be as expensive to run as gas. That assumes a scenario where electricity prices shoot up, and gasoline stays the same.
No matter how you slice it, power supplied by the grid will produce at least half as much CO2 than cars per mile traveled.
You used a price of .10/kwh for your comparisons.
My September bill comes to just over .19/kwh after fees, taxes, and whatever else they charge me for.
I won't be going electric any time soon. ;)
Quote from: humorless dp on October 15, 2010, 09:26:56 AM
You used a price of .10/kwh for your comparisons.
My September bill comes to just over .19/kwh after fees, taxes, and whatever else they charge me for.
See, I agree - it's all the nickel and diming that goes one that will ultimately make it cost prohibitive for people once it hits the main stream. I wouldn't be surprised in the least to see a whole new laundry list of charges added to accommodate the use.
The long term goal of electric vehicles isn't that they'll be cheaper for everyone, it's that they are more environmentally friendly overall. Driving has always been, and always will be, expensive.
As with pretty much any new technology, the market is fairly limited due to high cost at first.
Quote from: Triple J on October 15, 2010, 09:38:14 AM
The long term goal of electric vehicles isn't that they'll be cheaper for everyone, it's that they are more environmentally friendly overall.
Good Point. [thumbsup]
Quote from: Drjones on October 15, 2010, 09:25:51 AM
That doesn't help the argument. It just shows how pathetic GM is that it needs to steal 16% of the car's value in public money to make it competitive.
Your comment is as impartial as it is unargumentative.
Quote from: humorless dp on October 15, 2010, 09:26:56 AM
You used a price of .10/kwh for your comparisons.
My September bill comes to just over .19/kwh after fees, taxes, and whatever else they charge me for.
You're in the New England area? Looks like the average is about $.17/kwh. You need a new provider. How much do you pay for a gallon of gas, roughly?
If we split the difference and go with $.18/kwh
(Volt) EV cost/mile = $.036
... which is 75MPG effective cost (@$2.70/gallon)
Quote from: Monster Dave on October 15, 2010, 09:30:01 AM
See, I agree - it's all the nickel and diming that goes one that will ultimately make it cost prohibitive for people once it hits the main stream. I wouldn't be surprised in the least to see a whole new laundry list of charges added to accommodate the use.
I don't disagree with you in sentiment - the technology needs to be vetted, and it is unclear what effect, if any it will have on our grid, prices, etc. But, it does not personally satisfy my curiosity to come up with a lot of hypothetical reasons EVs would fail, and assume they would based on that. So, what charges could they come up with?
Quote from: il d00d on October 15, 2010, 09:16:23 AM
I feel like the EV shill. I'm not really. I also feel like the only person here that owns a calculator :)
Energy prices would have to more than double for a plug-in EV to be as expensive to run as gas. That assumes a scenario where electricity prices shoot up, and gasoline stays the same.
No matter how you slice it, power supplied by the grid will produce at least half as much CO2 than cars per mile traveled.
No electricity prices wouldn't have to double plain and simply because electricity prices affects the cost of EVERYTHING. When people start plugging in their EV's their gas cost will go down, but ultimately their home utility bill goes up, cost of food goes up, cost of goods go up, cost of services go up, etc. Not immediately; maybe not even two years later, but there will be an equilibrium line that gets crossed eventually.
CO2? Who gives a shit; its a sham. All this green malarky is all about $$$$$greeeen$$$$$
Quote from: Drjones on October 15, 2010, 09:52:38 AM
No electricity prices wouldn't have to double plain and simply because electricity prices affects the cost of EVERYTHING. When people start plugging in their EV's their gas cost will go down, but ultimately their home utility bill goes up, cost of food goes up, cost of goods go up, cost of services go up, etc. Not immediately; maybe not even two years later, but there will be an equilibrium line that gets crossed eventually.
CO2? Who gives a shit; its a sham. All this green malarky is all about $$$$$greeeen$$$$$
Thanks! Great talking to you! [thumbsup]
A gentle reminder: Please, no politics.
The point about energy usage is pretty moot.
Charging your car works out to roughly the same overall power consumption as a big-ass plasma TV, but when everyone ran out and bought those nobody was terribly worried about how much that was going to tax the grid.
Plus, this is off-peak power, which is unlikely to effect prices much.
BTW: I've been looking into electric bicycles for my 10 mile commute - A DIY kit is insanely cheap both to build and operate. I guess there's a reason they're the fastest growing vehicle around the world...
Quote from: Drunken Monkey on October 15, 2010, 11:09:03 AM
BTW: I've been looking into electric bicycles for my 10 mile commute - A DIY kit is insanely cheap both to build and operate. I guess there's a reason they're the fastest growing vehicle around the world...
10 miles!! OH COME ON.....just pedal!!!
Quote from: il d00d on October 15, 2010, 09:51:36 AM
<snip>
You're in the New England area? Looks like the average is about $.17/kwh. You need a new provider. How much do you pay for a gallon of gas, roughly?
If we split the difference and go with $.18/kwh
(Volt) EV cost/mile = $.036
... which is 75MPG effective cost (@$2.70/gallon)
<snip>
I have the privilege of being a member of a Coop.
Several years ago when we were able to search out different providers not a single one wanted to sell to the customers of the coop because they were going to charge the providers outrageous line use fees effectively eliminating any cost savings. Our rates are among the highest in the nation.
The concept of choice of providers is a sham both in electric utilities and cable providers in our area anyway
The price of gas went up this week to $2.799 from $2.599
Can you get me a better deal? ;D
But there are other factors to consider.
Keep in mind the Volt only has the 30-40 mile range in EV mode. Then it drops to 30ish MPG in CS mode.
The Leaf is EV only and has a 100 mile range (and yes, it qualifies for the $7,500 as well).
You then can add in stuff like size of the vehicle, practicality, and so on.
But realize this.
With CAFE standards increasing as they are, manufacturers are going to have to build Hybrids, Plug-in Hybrids, EVs, and so on to meet them. You'll like start seeing smaller, more efficient vehicles on the roads soon too.
Quote from: Drunken Monkey on October 15, 2010, 11:09:03 AM
Charging your car works out to roughly the same overall power consumption as a big-ass plasma TV,
Sorry - have to call Bull Shit here. That is just not true from the systems I have seen. Please provide some data to back it up.
mitt
Quote from: Randimus Maximus on October 15, 2010, 11:55:53 AM
<snip>
With CAFE standards increasing as they are, manufacturers are going to have to build Hybrids, Plug-in Hybrids, EVs, and so on to meet them. You'll like start seeing smaller, more efficient vehicles on the roads soon too.
Why don't they bring fuel efficient euro sized diesels?
The Hybrid Cayenne I'm learning about this week is not a plug in. It can run on electric only up to 30 mph. Above that the gasoline engine starts and is coupled with the electric motor to charge the battery and drive the car. Its not a perfect system but should return at least 28mpg if driven gently. These are decent numbers for a medium sized SUV. Compared to the gasoline Cayenne S with similar performance numbers this is an increase of 5 - 8 mpg. I believe the base prices are very similar if not less for the Hybrid.
I only see this technology getting more efficient as time goes on.
Quote from: humorless dp on October 15, 2010, 11:35:23 AM
Can you get me a better deal? ;D
No, but I can taunt you. I am looking at electricity prices here in Texas as low as $.08/kwh ;D
Quote from: mitt on October 15, 2010, 12:06:31 PM
Sorry - have to call Bull Shit here. That is just not true from the systems I have seen. Please provide some data to back it up.
Well, not quite. But I think the point was that it is a relatively trivial amount of power being consumed. If you charge every day, that's about 300kwh/mo, which is about the same as an electric water heater.
Quote from: humorless dp on October 15, 2010, 12:10:21 PM
Why don't they bring fuel efficient euro sized diesels?
I would looove to see an electric motor paired up with a diesel. Especially this one:
http://www.ecomotors.com/technology (http://www.ecomotors.com/technology)
Quote from: il d00d on October 15, 2010, 12:43:41 PM
No, but I can taunt you. I am looking at electricity prices here in Texas as low as $.08/kwh ;D
<snip>
That isn't nice.
[Makes little mark in book next to il dood's name. [evil]] [laugh]
There's a reason our state motto is "Live, Freeze, then Die" ;)
Science Friday, a radio show on NPR, did a Leaf story last week. Video here:
http://www.sciencefriday.com/videos/watch/10330 (http://www.sciencefriday.com/videos/watch/10330)
Quote from: il d00d on October 15, 2010, 12:43:41 PM
Well, not quite. But I think the point was that it is a relatively trivial amount of power being consumed. If you charge every day, that's about 300kwh/mo, which is about the same as an electric water heater.
95% of your electricity bill is from one or more of these 4 appliances - electric water heater, electric oven, electric dryer, and air conditioner. I would not call comparing a new nightly charge routine to one of these as a compliment - it will increase your bill significantly.
The tesla charging system requirements are what I have studied. It requires a lot of kwh to charge. The fastest charger requires a 90A 240V circuit for your house - that is insane. The largest circuit in most houses is a 30A 240V for one or more of the above named energy hogs.
mitt
Quote from: humorless dp on October 15, 2010, 11:35:23 AM
The price of gas went up this week to $2.799 from $2.599
Just as the leaf peepers started coming up. Hmmm?
Quote from: humorless dp on October 15, 2010, 12:10:21 PM
Why don't they bring fuel efficient euro sized diesels?
They don't necessarily need to be small. The UK Mazda 6 diesel version gets 54 mpg. The BMW 335 diesel get over 36 mpg with over 400 ft-lbs of torque.
What is the prius getting? 45 mpg? Who wants to drive that thing? Not to mention having to deal with a motor and an engine.
Quote from: humorless dp on October 15, 2010, 12:10:21 PM
Why don't they bring fuel efficient euro sized diesels?
Certainly you remember the diesels sold here in the '80s. Lots of other 'Mericans do too.
Quote from: il d00d on October 15, 2010, 12:43:41 PM
I would looove to see an electric motor paired up with a diesel. Especially this one:
http://www.ecomotors.com/technology (http://www.ecomotors.com/technology)
Actually, the reason you don't see that is because the two technologies don't work well together.
Diesels = low end torque, with relatively low hp and low rpms.
Electric motors = torque, with relatively low hp, but with a broader range of rpms.
Quote from: Porsche Monkey on October 15, 2010, 12:41:48 PM
The Hybrid Cayenne I'm learning about this week is not a plug in. It can run on electric only up to 30 mph. Above that the gasoline engine starts and is coupled with the electric motor to charge the battery and drive the car. Its not a perfect system but should return at least 28mpg if driven gently. These are decent numbers for a medium sized SUV. Compared to the gasoline Cayenne S with similar performance numbers this is an increase of 5 - 8 mpg. I believe the base prices are very similar if not less for the Hybrid.
I only see this technology getting more efficient as time goes on.
+1 Look at the Toyota systems. Each subsequent generation of the Prius has gotten larger and more powerful yet with better fuel economy.
Quote from: Randimus Maximus on October 15, 2010, 01:58:31 PM
Certainly you remember the diesels sold here in the '80s. Lots of other 'Mericans do too.
<snip>
As far as the big 3 have their heads stuffed up their asses and in the sand...
that was almost 30 years ago. Many 'Mericans wouldn't look at a Japanese car then, and you'd rarely see them on the road in Detroit. Been by there lately?
I'm not suggesting they try to use the garbage GM design again. I'm talking a real purpose built efficient diesel.
I think there's a market for them now.
Quote from: mitt on October 15, 2010, 01:44:08 PM
95% of your electricity bill is from one or more of these 4 appliances - electric water heater, electric oven, electric dryer, and air conditioner. I would not call comparing a new nightly charge routine to one of these as a compliment - it will increase your bill significantly.
The tesla charging system requirements are what I have studied. It requires a lot of kwh to charge. The fastest charger requires a 90A 240V circuit for your house - that is insane. The largest circuit in most houses is a 30A 240V for one or more of the above named energy hogs.
mitt
Fair enough. What was the charging efficiency of the Tesla system? Let's say it is 70% for the Volt's battery or 11.5 Kwh/charge. A full charge every night, 30 days a month would add on $35 to my bill, or $62 to DP's. "Significant" is relative, but I don't think people put this much thought into it when they put in a freezer, hot tub, or flood lights.
In terms of net cost, you could go up to 1200 miles on those charges, but let's call it 1000 - to go that same distance in my truck which gets on a good tank 22MPG, it would cost me $122. Even if I got 50MPG, it would result in net savings of about $10 to pay for electric and not for gasoline.
Quote from: humorless dp on October 15, 2010, 02:10:24 PM
As far as the big 3 have their heads stuffed up their asses and in the sand...
that was almost 30 years ago. Many 'Mericans wouldn't look at a Japanese car then, and you'd rarely see them on the road in Detroit. Been by there lately?
I'm not suggesting they try to use the garbage GM design again. I'm talking a real purpose built efficient diesel.
I think there's a market for them now.
I agree that there's a market.
There are a lot of other factors, many of which can't be discussed on here.
However, there is a diesel refining capacity issue nationwide (that's why diesel is typically more expensive than gasoline).
Quote from: Randimus Maximus on October 15, 2010, 02:20:34 PM
I agree that there's a market.
There are a lot of other factors, many of which can't be discussed on here.
However, there is a diesel refining capacity issue nationwide (that's why diesel is typically more expensive than gasoline).
No shit.... [laugh]
The reason there is a refining capacity issue is that
someone decided we were going to use gasoline.
If there was a more of a market for diesel the supply would be there. That same
someone will want to cash in. ;)
Forget it....that's it.....I've had enough..... [bang]
...all of you guys can keep debating this....but I can't.....
....tonight I'm going to burn off a few gallons of jet fuel to make myself feel better....
(http://www.ronpatrickstuff.com/images/AB12_15_05copy.jpg)
[cheeky]
...but on the off shot that I feel guilty about polluting....I may break out the Vespa....
(http://www.ronpatrickstuff.com/images/SCOOTE3PScopy.jpg)
[evil]
Central to the argument of cost of recharge is....
the fact that an 8 kWh battery takes more than 8kWh to recharge.
I'm skeptical of a 70% recharge efficiency for a *complete* recharge.
Also, 11.5 kWh is about 15 HP-hours.
For a slippery car, that's *maybe* one hour on the freeway at 65mph.
Quote from: Speeddog on October 15, 2010, 02:45:10 PM
Also, 11.5 kWh is about 15 HP-hours.
For a slippery car, that's *maybe* one hour on the freeway at 65mph.
GM says "up to 40 miles" ;)
Quote from: Speeddog on October 15, 2010, 02:45:10 PM
Central to the argument of cost of recharge is....
the fact that an 8 kWh battery takes more than 8kWh to recharge.
I'm skeptical of a 70% recharge efficiency for a *complete* recharge.
Also, 11.5 kWh is about 15 HP-hours.
For a slippery car, that's *maybe* one hour on the freeway at 65mph.
The Prius battery is designed never to go below about 40% charge for efficiency and battery life, I am guessing the Volt battery which is 16kwh operates similarly. Are you skeptical that it can charge to the extent of its plug-in capacity at 70% efficiency or at all?
It's odd, through out the world diesel cost less then gasoline but not in the US. Hmmm, I wonder why?
I wonder is diesel prices weren't altered would diesel be more palatable in the US?
Quote from: The Architect on October 15, 2010, 03:27:37 PM
It's odd, through out the world diesel cost less then gasoline but not in the US. Hmmm, I wonder why?
I wonder is diesel prices weren't altered would diesel be more palatable in the US?
even at the current diesel prices I'm still saving $5 a day compared to the previous car, granted the TDI is a more expensive car so it really just evens out basically.
EVs would need to get a lot better range before I could consider one and I would probably run into a battery replacement with the mileage I do. As for something like a Prius, :P my car is a lot more fun and with my commute being predominately highway I'm probably getting a better daily average fuel economy number with the diesel versus a current hybrid.
Quote from: il d00d on October 15, 2010, 02:55:55 PM
The Prius battery is designed never to go below about 40% charge for efficiency and battery life, I am guessing the Volt battery which is 16kwh operates similarly. Are you skeptical that it can charge to the extent of its plug-in capacity at 70% efficiency or at all?
I'm skeptical of a 70% efficiency on a *full* charge, IE from 40% charge to 100% charge.
It's been quite a while since I was working with some top-shelf battery guys.
At that time, they said it was quick and efficient to get a battery back up to 75% charge, but the last 25% was slow and inefficient.
Quote from: il d00d on October 15, 2010, 02:55:55 PM
The Prius battery is designed never to go below about 40% charge for efficiency and battery life, I am guessing the Volt battery which is 16kwh operates similarly. Are you skeptical that it can charge to the extent of its plug-in capacity at 70% efficiency or at all?
Quote from: Speeddog on October 15, 2010, 04:06:36 PM
I'm skeptical of a 70% efficiency on a *full* charge, IE from 40% charge to 100% charge.
It's been quite a while since I was working with some top-shelf battery guys.
At that time, they said it was quick and efficient to get a battery back up to 75% charge, but the last 25% was slow and inefficient.
psssst...a Prius battery is never charged to 100%. We stop somewhere in the 70-80% range.
How many days of the years is the outside temp 65* to 75*.
Some of us use the heater over half the year, others the A/C.
What does that do for battery life??
With an I.C.E. (other than aircooled bugs, they don't have heat [laugh]) coolant provides "free" heat.
Quote from: lethe on October 15, 2010, 03:36:30 PM
even at the current diesel prices I'm still saving $5 a day compared to the previous car, granted the TDI is a more expensive car so it really just evens out basically.
EVs would need to get a lot better range before I could consider one and I would probably run into a battery replacement with the mileage I do. As for something like a Prius, :P my car is a lot more fun and with my commute being predominately highway I'm probably getting a better daily average fuel economy number with the diesel versus a current hybrid.
I've wondered for years why diesels as a whole don't have the same cachet here as in Europe.
To me they make more sense than hybrids.....
Con Ed is screwing us NYC folk at about $.38 a kilowatt with delivery and taxes. Looking at what Road and track did with the Volt it seems like not much of a "real world" test to me, but more of an ideal commuter scenario. A half hour 70 MPH expressway sprint would certainly reduce fuel economy quite a bit.
Quote from: sno_duc on October 15, 2010, 06:19:13 PM
How many days of the years is the outside temp 65* to 75*.
Some of us use the heater over half the year, others the A/C.
What does that do for battery life??
That is a very important point. My coworkers hybrid camry takes a shit when the them falls below 50F. It has to run the engine all the time just to keep engine temps up and heater temps comfortable.
While we are at it, all the energy savings from CFL bulbs VS filament light bulbs should only be figured for summer months. In the cooler temps, that energy loss due to i2R heating is being recycled into helping heat my house, so I don't consider it a loss.
mitt
Quote from: mitt on October 15, 2010, 09:33:23 PM
That is a very important point. My coworkers hybrid camry takes a shit when the them falls below 50F. It has to run the engine all the time just to keep engine temps up and heater temps comfortable.
While we are at it, all the energy savings from CFL bulbs VS filament light bulbs should only be figured for summer months. In the cooler temps, that energy loss due to i2R heating is being recycled into helping heat my house, so I don't consider it a loss.
mitt
Dear EPA, we the American car buyers would like you to do real world mileage testing.
Total fuel burn for the following road trips.
1) Phoenix, AZ to Dallas, TX in July/August.
2) Great Falls, MT to Minneapolis, MN via Fargo, ND on December 22nd.(shortest day of the year.....headlights)
signed cynical
Quote from: sno_duc on October 15, 2010, 10:12:55 PM
Dear EPA, we the American car buyers would like you to do real world mileage testing.
Total fuel burn for the following road trips.
1) Phoenix, AZ to Dallas, TX in July/August.
2) Great Falls, MT to Minneapolis, MN via Fargo, ND on December 22nd.(shortest day of the year.....headlights)
signed cynical
they can throw these things my way to test, I'm doing something like 20-30 miles within New York City , 170 highway miles, and 50 miles of decently twisty roads daily. With the hours I work, it's mostly dark and temperatures range from well over 100 in the summer to under 0 in the winter. Snow and rain don't keep me home and I don't go easy on the car. I can kill the weak examples in a year. [evil]
I'll jump in.
I'd love to see a cost effective hybrid vehicle.
Last week I bought a good condition E300 turbo diesel Benz. 1998, 150k miles, $4000.
Car is huge, and gets between 30-35mpg.
I can buy a LOT of fuel for the $25000 I saved, have more usuable capacity, and argueably safety as well.
By the time the savings become apparent, the hybrid will be wore slap-out. I commute 20 miles each way, 5 times a week. If I could find a scooter or similar for CHEAP, that got 75mpg, I would ride everyday that I could.
Quote from: lethe on October 16, 2010, 05:19:12 AM
they can throw these things my way to test, I'm doing something like 20-30 miles within New York City , 170 highway miles, and 50 miles of decently twisty roads daily. With the hours I work, it's mostly dark and temperatures range from well over 100 in the summer to under 0 in the winter. Snow and rain don't keep me home and I don't go easy on the car. I can kill the weak examples in a year. [evil]
That's not a daily drive..............that's a forced march. :o
bet you would not get 127mph [cheeky]
Quote from: lethe on October 16, 2010, 05:19:12 AM
they can throw these things my way to test, I'm doing something like 20-30 miles within New York City , 170 highway miles, and 50 miles of decently twisty roads daily. With the hours I work, it's mostly dark and temperatures range from well over 100 in the summer to under 0 in the winter. Snow and rain don't keep me home and I don't go easy on the car. I can kill the weak examples in a year. [evil]
I would like to see that too. I would like to see a variety of real world testing of hybrids so people can select what is best for them.
Extreme commuting (Lethe)
Heavy traffic urban commuting
Suburban loop
Taxi
Etc.
There is going to be a much bigger variation in fuel mileage from user to user in hybrid cars than conventional cars. Plug ins complicate the issue more. Some commuters will benefit greatly from hybrid technology, as will the rest of us. Others will benefit more from a fuel efficient conventional car. They have small diesels running around in the rest of the world that are capable of 50 - 60 MPG real life economy.
Quote from: howie on October 16, 2010, 07:15:31 AM
They have small diesels running around in the rest of the world that are capable of 50 - 60 MPG real life economy.
Ding, ding, ding - we have a winner!
It is beyond comprehension that small diesels aren't more prevalent in the US....
Quote from: Speedbag on October 18, 2010, 09:11:03 AM
It is beyond comprehension that small diesels aren't more prevalent in the US....
Auto lobbyist, big 3, hint hint hint ;D
mitt
I haven't driven a recent small diesel, but the diesel Rabbit I drove briefly a *long* time ago was horrifically slow.
Quote from: Speeddog on October 18, 2010, 09:54:17 AM
I haven't driven a recent small diesel, but the diesel Rabbit I drove briefly a *long* time ago was horrifically slow.
I had a diesel jetta for a few months while in France, it was a hell of a car - very quick and torquey.
mitt
Quote from: mitt on October 18, 2010, 09:50:07 AM
Auto lobbyist, big 3, hint hint hint ;D
mitt
[puke]
Quote from: mitt on October 18, 2010, 10:10:40 AM
I had a diesel jetta for a few months while in France, it was a hell of a car - very quick and torquey.
mitt
Last year we drove a few small diesels while in Italy. They have come a long way! All the infrastructure is in place in the US. It's an easy transition.
Along with the great questions posted here on the real-world experiences of hybrids and all-electrics ... one question I have yet to see answered:
If I run out of charge in an all electric, how fast can I fill it up? Or at least for any meaningful charge that I know will drive me x miles? Will I have to bring along a copy of War & Peace AND ponder the meaning of life beyond that? [laugh]
As long as filling it up with gas is faster than recharging, anything electric is academic at this point.
Quote from: gojira on October 18, 2010, 01:29:40 PM
Along with the great questions posted here on the real-world experiences of hybrids and all-electrics ... one question I have yet to see answered:
If I run out of charge in an all electric, how fast can I fill it up? Or at least for any meaningful charge that I know will drive me x miles? Will I have to bring along a copy of War & Peace AND ponder the meaning of life beyond that? [laugh]
As long as filling it up with gas is faster than recharging, anything electric is academic at this point.
I don't have what the theoretical speed limit is on charging, but the practical times being touted are hours not minutes. I am not sure what that hour gets you for miles either.
The tesla site has some good information on their FULL CHARGE charging options from the basic 120V extension cords in a wall outlet (12 hours if I remember right) to a dedicated 90A 240V circuit in your garage (2 hours I think).
mitt
Yahoo just had a story about "electric vehicle range anxiety". A new disorder caused by people not sure if they will make it home on X charge. I would certainly have it, since I rarely let my gas cars get below 1/2 tank in case of emergency or disaster.
mitt
Then we get back to the temperature vs battery life thing.
30% charge will get you home on a 75* day, at -25* .......maybe it will or maybe you walk.
Googled battery capacity vs temperature and found this.
http://www.mpoweruk.com/performance.htm (http://www.mpoweruk.com/performance.htm)
Many interesting points. [thumbsup]
Sunday NY Times has a Volt artical.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/17/automobiles/17VOLT.html?_r=1&hpw (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/17/automobiles/17VOLT.html?_r=1&hpw)
Quote from: Speeddog on October 18, 2010, 09:54:17 AM
I haven't driven a recent small diesel, but the diesel Rabbit I drove briefly a *long* time ago was horrifically slow.
go test drive one now, stock my Golf is 140hp and 236 lb/ft, I probably won't do much to it but they do supposedly respond really well to mods.
For electrics will we be rewinding motors and adding capacitors to mod?
Quote from: lethe on October 18, 2010, 04:54:53 PM
For electrics will we be rewinding motors and adding capacitors to mod?
I seriously doubt it. Car makers are will not add extra hardware margin for free. I imagine a lot of gains will come from reprogramming the software - changing how the power is delivered. With electronic motors and batteries, the power deliver could be close to instantaneous, and I imagine most electric cars today actually delay the delivery to take out harshness and extend battery life.
mitt
Yes you have to regulate the power output especially during take off since its instant. Lots of burnouts if you don't. Well I did alot of RC racing so you can get hotter motors better cables. Better tires will grip better so you can tweak out the "traction control" to give you more of a launch.
Quote from: Latinbalar on October 18, 2010, 05:58:27 PM
Yes you have to regulate the power output especially during take off since its instant. Lots of burnouts if you don't. Well I did alot of RC racing so you can get hotter motors better cables. Better tires will grip better so you can tweak out the "traction control" to give you more of a launch.
I raced RC cars too (RC10), and now work in the mechtronic engineering world. Unfortunately I think a lot of the RC performance parts I dropped serious money on were more hype than science. Much like Ducati ;D
mitt
In the "Porsche Part of the day thread", the last one looked a lot like a 3 Ø electric motor, if so then there is a freq drive (inverter) between it and the battery pack. So the modding will be to change the outputs to a higher amp versions and rewinding the motor to take more amps. I times E = horsepower.... can't change the E so More I [evil] ;D
Quote from: sno_duc on October 18, 2010, 07:02:58 PM
In the "Porsche Part of the day thread", the last one looked a lot like a 3 Ø electric motor, if so then there is a freq drive (inverter) between it and the battery pack. So the modding will be to change the outputs to a higher amp versions and rewinding the motor to take more amps. I times E = horsepower.... can't change the E so More I [evil] ;D
Elctromechanical power is also a function of number of windings and spacing of windings, so there is balance between sizing the wire diameter and length. The finer the diameter, the more windings, but the higher resistance and less current. The larger the wire diameter, the fewer windings, but less resistance and more current. You keep iterating until you find the best compromise.
mitt
Exactly, modding will be up-sizing the wire to lower the resistance and allow higher amps, and just like modding I.C.E.s you trade off life and fuel mileage. Goes like h*ll but the battery is only good for 15 miles and only lasts a year or two.
Cheap / Fast / Reliable ..... pick any two.
Give me some super-conducting wire that works at liquid nitrogen temps....... [evil] [evil]
Quote from: sno_duc on October 18, 2010, 07:02:58 PM
In the "Porsche Part of the day thread", the last one looked a lot like a 3 Ø electric motor, if so then there is a freq drive (inverter) between it and the battery pack. So the modding will be to change the outputs to a higher amp versions and rewinding the motor to take more amps. I times E = horsepower.... can't change the E so More I [evil] ;D
I don't know how big the motor is but yes it is frequency driven and yes there is an inverter. Voltage stays constant, frequency changes. You probably know more about it than I do. [thumbsup]
What is the voltage on that?
I'm taking a S.W.A.Q. between 200 and 300 volts, porsche monkey would know.
swaq= scientific wild a$$ quess
I've worked on (both maintaining and running) a lot of CNC VMCs, they use a freq drive on the spindle. In order to perform sub 5 second tool changes, the motor brakes the spindle via the freq drive. Dumps the energy into a bank of big resistors.
Most freq drives (inverters) convert ac into dc, charging a bank of caps, then pulse width modulate it back into 3Ø ac. For this you can subsitute step 1 and 2 with the battery pack.
Quote from: sno_duc on October 18, 2010, 08:06:40 PM
I'm taking a S.W.A.Q. between 200 and 300 volts, porsche monkey would know.
~~SNIP~~
Wonder how many would-be modders know what happens when you get your fingers on 300 VDC.
:-X
In the world of hybrids, if there are large orange wires going to, it handle with extreme caution.
Nominal voltage is 288 DC but can get to over 300.
Quote from: Porsche Monkey on October 19, 2010, 10:23:32 AM
Nominal voltage is 288 DC but can get to over 300.
Weak as circus lemonade.
Prius has up to 650 VDC. ;D
Quote from: Randimus Maximus on October 19, 2010, 05:59:45 PM
Weak as circus lemonade.
Prius has up to 650 VDC. ;D
hmmm, hybrid Porsche with only a 300 volt motor assisting or a Prius with a big 650, such a tough decision if I were to be offered one or the other. [laugh]
FYI a not-so-kind article on the Volt: Volt Fraud At Government Motors (http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=550957)
Quote from: gojira on October 21, 2010, 06:44:36 AM
FYI a not-so-kind article on the Volt: Volt Fraud At Government Motors (http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=550957)
I find it ironic that the article has about as many facts backing it up as the the stories it is slamming for being misleading. Pot this is kettle.
mitt
Speaking of Diesels, I'm planning on getting one of these. It seats up to 7, has all wheel drive, stability control program which works beautifuly, you can get a tow package, and with the 7 speed transmission and 400 it shouldn't be slow either.
(http://www.mercedesautosinfo.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/Mercedes-Benz-R-Class-3.jpg)
The R320 Bluetec achieves 18/24 mpg which isn't so bad for a big pig like this. I'm just not going to worry about the mileage.
Displacement: 182 cu in, 2987 cc
Power (SAE net): 210 bhp @ 3400 rpm
Torque (SAE net): 400 lb-ft @ 1600 rpm
TRANSMISSION: 7-speed automatic with manumatic shifting
DIMENSIONS:
Wheelbase: 126.6 in Length: 203.1 in
Width: 77.1 in Height: 65.4 in
Curb weight: 5412 lb
C/D TEST RESULTS:
Zero to 60 mph: 8.5 sec
Zero to 100 mph: 25.9 sec
Street start, 5â€"60 mph: 9.2 sec
Standing ¼-mile: 16.5 sec @ 83 mph
Top speed (drag limited): 130 mph
Braking, 70â€"0 mph: 177 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.80 g
Quote from: mitt on October 18, 2010, 01:52:25 PM
Yahoo just had a story about "electric vehicle range anxiety". A new disorder caused by people not sure if they will make it home on X charge. I would certainly have it, since I rarely let my gas cars get below 1/2 tank in case of emergency or disaster.
mitt
I knew that sounded familiar, there's a Jalopnik article on how GM is trying to patent the term "range anxiety" so they can start shitting on pure EVs:
http://jalopnik.com/5626306/how-gm-will-use-fear-to-sell-you-a-chevy-volt (http://jalopnik.com/5626306/how-gm-will-use-fear-to-sell-you-a-chevy-volt)
More 'less than good' news on the Volt:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/10/volt-misses-another-goal-battery-to-discharge-deeper-than-planned/ (http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010/10/volt-misses-another-goal-battery-to-discharge-deeper-than-planned/)
(http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRVSDptbejfC-WqhXGsPRyxScf9BN3pXRitU6bTpg4T_ebWIEU&t=1&usg=__meo0D5XzPqxY0U8lv6zC2L52Lio=)
Maybe GM needs to install another source of power to make up for the inefficiency. [thumbsup]
So I heard yesterday that a major concern with these electric cars is how quiet they are and that automobile manufacturer are looking into ways to make them more audible with chirping sounds and the like.
So pretty soon we'll have the rice burners, the cherry bombs, the Harley's clogging, the Ducati clacking, and EV cars chirping all together. Road noise is becoming operatic.
And the hits keep coming:
http://www.autoblog.com/2010/10/28/carb-gives-the-chevy-volt-ulev-ii-status-misses-sulev-ii-by-a-h/ (http://www.autoblog.com/2010/10/28/carb-gives-the-chevy-volt-ulev-ii-status-misses-sulev-ii-by-a-h/)
And I do want to add a disclaimer.
I don't hate the concept of the Volt, even though I work for a competitor. I find emerging technologies interesting. We've said for some time that this type of technology "isn't quite ready yet", and have been lambasted for it. Unfortunately, GM's hype on the vehicle (and the original concept that was previewed a while back) isn't quite matching up to reality as it prepares to go to market.