Ducati Monster Forum

I'm actually looking for the stock ducati graphic (2005 S4R) depicting the measurement of the angle between the ground and the pegs. I swear I've seen this in one of the manuals before, but can't find it now. Anyone know where to find what I'm thinking of? Or am I just imagining things again??! [drink]

Maximum lean is 90 degrees.

I wouldn't recommend it though.

In stock form,  the pegs fold up.  I can tell you from experience on my S2R1000 the max lean angle is when the peg is folded up against your foot.  If you get better rear sets with higher pegs the lean angle increases.   I don't know what degree that is but bottom line is you can lean a monster over until the hard parts start to lift the rear wheel off the ground.  

Having said that, you'll go through the corner faster if you get off the bike and use less lean angle.  

(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r197/vw151/monster%20track%20day/tattoo-2-151.jpg)

(http://i144.photobucket.com/albums/r197/vw151/monster%20track%20day/tattoo-2-065.jpg)

Those 2 pics I have some pretty good lean angle.  That is in the keyhole at Mid-OH.  I think if they would have taken pics of me going through the carousel you would have seen some serious lean angle though.  I literally almost lifted the rear wheel off the ground with the peg that day.  I decided to work on my body position after that. 

Whatever that is when I ride it [clap]

Ducati S2R1000 crash (http://www.vimeo.com/14435292)

if you go to 0:50 you get a nice graph of lean angle vs rear tire. its a skewed graph since the edge of the track is raised.

It also shows the lean angle at 90degrees and the amount of traction available.

(http://kuixihe.com/gallery/main.php?g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=1590&g2_serialNumber=1)

i dont recommend exceeding 90 degrees.

^Great display of the graph!  I was thinking there was going to be some real data collection going on.  haha.  Glad you were ok.

I've tried this & ....... survive ;D

I believe 45 degrees is the maximum lean angle for max traction.

Dolph      :)

ok thanks guys... but it turns out it's not necessary anymore :p

believe it or not, this was actually intended to be part of a courtroom defense against allegations of 'excessive speeding' and 'riding with undue care & attention'.  [leo]  [thumbsdown]

don't get me wrong, I definitely WAS speeding to some extent and freely admit to that - just not *excessively* speeding, as the cop has guesstimated the speeds involved (no radar).
Now, I've actually gone and measured the corner radius in question, and using some simple(?!) physics for calculating the required lean angle at a given speed through a corner with a known radius, I've determined that at the speeds I've been accused of, the required lean angle would be 72 degrees!

As it turns out, it's been published by Michelin tire co. that the MAX available lean for maintaining traction with their pilot power 2CT's is 51.2 degrees! (pretty close to where He-Man there falls off his chart!)

So either I'm quite the miraculous rossi-wannabe, or the officer was overly generous in his 'speed by sight' calculations.... hmmmm.... wonder which one it is? :P [evil] [laugh] [clap]

I just hope I get a judge who understands physics!

I did this yesterday (on my 620). It is the max.  The bike would not go any further.

you guys need to find a more crowned road surface. You can go more than 90 if you REALLY try!


and using math and science to beat a guesstimate ticket is awesome.  [thumbsup]

Let us know what the judge rules in court. 

hoping for a judge that understands basic physics and for the  [leo] to admit that their "guestimation of speed" was overly generous [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh]

That is the funniest line on the DMF EVER!!! [clap]

Good luck hope all goes well

+1

[laugh]

Following this just so i can see the outcome of the case!!

if we're lucky, everybody will behave and the thread won't get locked.

[leo] [leo]

Let's all be on our best behavior! [evil] [evil]

chances are.. the occifer doesn't even remember the color of the bike, or much of anything about the situation.  The only ones that seem to show up in court are the ones that write tickets regularly(why they dont remember crap) and your more serious cases like DUIs.

If you plead guilty to one charge, you still have to pay outrageous court fees.

In my experience, you won't really have time to defend yourself either (thats what lawyers are for).

Haha..

Explaining how a physical happening can't possibly be w, Math and Psysics sounds like a novel defense....and would merit serious thought to try and rebut it !

Dolph        :)

Idk, from my ample experience dealing with traffic court, the judge will not have the time or interest to try and understand what you are saying.

Typically the officer and I would work out a deal just before entering the courtroom and spend 1-2 minutes in front of the judge. If that didn't go well, I would get a minute to plead my case and then (usually) I would be given reduced charge and an ass reaming by the judge for being an idiot.

Thankfully I have grown out of this stage......or maybe I'm better at not getting caught now  [evil]

maybe if youre in a place with not enough cops on duty.

ive been to court 3 times. 1x visor ticket 1x plate is hidden, 1x no right hand mirror

cop showed up for all 3 (though the visor and mirror was a single cop in 1 shot).

anything involving points, u should hire a lawyer and just let him take care of it. everything else u can fight if u think u can win, but usually if u are clear in the wrong, u can get the price reduced. and even then it isnt reduced much because the minimum is usually only a few bucks off the fine anyway.

in nyc, there is a $80 mandatory surcharge fee + the actual $35 ticket fee (or something to those numbers). thats $115 total. The computer wont take a fine lower than $25, so u only save $10 bucks..... even if the judge says to put the fine at $1, the computer just wont accept it. so is it worth it? not at all. thats just in my area.

But it's true
 8)
& I'm very well behave

What country/state are you in?

WTF is a visor ticket?

Only having 1 mirror ticket?

AFAIK in PA you are only required to have the left hand mirror. When mine was knocked off by a random person in a parking lot, it passed inspection because it was the right mirror and the left was intact.

I think the different tire manufactures actually publish "max lean angles" for their tires. 

In NY if you don't have DOT approved eye protection, you are illegally operating your motorcycle.  It's akin to driving without a seatbelt in fines.
--Visor must be DOWN at all times legally, unless you have DOT approved shades

In NY, however, you only need a left mirror..that's an odd ticket.  And if you show to court with a photo of 1 mirror, it usually washes off.

Traffic violations are state and every state is different, there may even be differences between cities and counties.  There is no plea bargaining in NYC, you are either guilty or not guilty.  As He Man said, the hearing officer can reduce the fine, but not significantly.  If the officer is on traffic detail the odds are he/she will show up since there will be several other tickets, making the day worth while.  If not, you will get a letter with a new date.  Oh, in the case of a ticket like He Man got for the mirror it is a good idea to bring the statute with you.

On the other hand, I got pulled for speeding upstate, about 30 over.  The officer was nice enough to write me for a speed that would keep me within plea bargaining territory and told me to show up and plead not guilty.  When I appeared there were no police present.  I plead not guilty and was offered a fine for parking on the sidewalk.  No points, no insurance raise, I paid.  Since I was obviously wrong this was a good deal.

Howie, that is an awesome deal.

I got pulled over last week in the cage going 38 in a 15. I was leaving campus at 3am on a sunday night after studying for 12 hours straight...

Managed to talk down the officer to a parking ticket $50 is a LOT better than the 3-4 points I would have gotten.



As far as the OP goes, you can challenge (usually successfully) that the officer did not have an accurate reading on your speed, and his "guestimate" is not sufficient enough for you to be proven guilty. His relative distance from you, time of day, etc could alter his perception of your speed. If you are dealing with a serious fine/suspension/life ruining insurance premiums I would fight it.

here's the only problem with this defense. at this point you will have the required information to be able to accurate tell them how fast you were going, and if that is over the limit...

but you also aren't factoring in body positioning, etc. if you lean off the bike you can change the required lean angle for a certain speed.

ALSO if you are travelling at slower speeds you can actually push the bike down and shift your weight high to appear to be going faster than you are. ie when you are doing an evasive manuever.

I'm in Vancouver, BC (Canada eh!)

Around here, the law accepts an officer's visual estimation of speed as valid - if you want to see how questionable this is, check out our local news clip on the matter:PEAK-A-BOO! (http://watch.ctv.ca/news/latest/speed-by-sight/#clip352687)

As of September 20th 2010, we have a new law as well that makes vehicle impound _mandatory_ for excessive speeding charges.
An officer can now impound your bike based on this 'opinion' of how fast you appeared to be traveling. 7 days impound the 1st time, 30 days the 2nd, and 60 or more on the 3rd time!

oh I was DEFINITELY speeding. I'm arguing that it was NOT 'excessive' (40 kph over). I'll take a regular speeding ticket any day, less fine, less points.
As for the physics, yes, there's a LOT of important variables that affect the equation.... I'm just hoping to ballpark it close enough to plausible, and show the judge that I've done some homework on this ... though with the new laws (see previous post) there has been a lot of public outcry and 'excessive speed' is a hot topic right now. There's been a definite increase in riders attempting to evade police in the news lately too.

Yea, physics or not.... I'm prettymuch f@cked.

Should have ran... [evil]

yup, this thread isn't gonna make it to the op's court date.

Oh ye of little faith, judges (and members of this forum) can surprise you.

one can only hope.  ;D

When's the court date again?

OP could just lock the thread until he has an outcome to report....

why do you have to say all these smart things???

I wouldn't worry about accuracy, the point is to disprove by a wide margin the officer's guestimate.  I would be more concerned about the judge believing the physics calculations.  I would suggest notorized written, or even better, live testimony by an expert witness.

+1

never a bad idea to add credibility to your defense

I had a physics prof when I was an undergrad that would (for a fee) appear as an expert in speeding cases. He'd do a trick where he'd spin a spoon on a table, get people to guess how fast it is spinning and then clock it with a radar gun. The speed was usually about 1/4 what people would guess. I forgot the science part he was trying to explain with that lesson, so the effectiveness as a teacher may be less than as an expert in such a case.


Visual guesstimates are legal in Ohio now as well.

This sounds hilarious. I'm picturing a guy in a lab coat with a huge grey beard spinning a spoon like a maniac screaming "HOW FAST IS IT SPINNING"