Ducati Monster Forum

Here's the article:

http://techcrunch.com/2010/10/19/brammo-enertia-plus-ev-motorcycle/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Techcrunch+%28TechCrunch%29 (http://techcrunch.com/2010/10/19/brammo-enertia-plus-ev-motorcycle/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Techcrunch+%28TechCrunch%29)


Post why this is the best/worst thing ever to happen to motorcycling below.

sac

I plan to keep on riding my noising gas burning MCs until I'm too old to ride.  But, ya know, that won't be too
much longer (in geological time).  We have to face it that the gas powered era will come to an end some day. 
If we don't choose to change due to environmental concerns, then someday we will run out of gas.  Someday in
the future, if there are to be MCs, they will be powered by something other than gas engines. 

As for now, I see a possible niche for an electric bike.  A gas-free way to commute to work.  Short runs around town. 
Other versions of electric bikes perform well and may be fine for recreational riding too.  I think this is a good thing. 

But for me, I'll ride my Duc until they pry my cold dead fingers from my handlebars or we drain the last drop of oil from
the Arctic Wildlife Refuge (or S. Arabia which ever comes last).   [drink] [drink]

I'm open to them when they become cost effective, with better range, weight ,and performance.

I think cruising through the twisties on one of these things might be like flying in a glider. I imagine getting in that rhythm leaning this way, then that way, feeling the road and feeling the landscape slip by. The rumble of the L-twin adds is sweet, but there might be something to the silence, until you splat into the side of the SUV that didn't hear you coming.

I'd like to know the conditions under which they got that 80 mile range.

Is that 80 mph for one hour?
40mph for 2?
10mph for 8?

6 kW-hr battery is about 8 HP-hr.

6 hours to recharge?  I'll keep my fossil fuel and enjoy the rumble.

i would consider an eletric bike if it had the right styling, could go a decent distance at a decent speed.  i would love the quiet ride, but agree it helps to have a loud motorcycle so people know you're there. 

Good question.  Brammo does not answer that on their website:
http://www.brammo.com/enertia-plus-specifications/ (http://www.brammo.com/enertia-plus-specifications/)
But if you click onto Latest News on their site that claim is made over and over again without any other details.  All we really know is consumption is not at 80 MPH since they claim it only goes 63. Cycle World did travel 31 miles between charges twice on the original enertia with 6% charge left on one rum and 20 % left on the other.  Since the Enertia Plus claims double  the original  I think 80 might be possible under ideal conditions. http://www.cycleworld.com/motorcycle_roadtest/single_bike_tests_articles/archive/test_2010_brammo_enertia (http://www.cycleworld.com/motorcycle_roadtest/single_bike_tests_articles/archive/test_2010_brammo_enertia)  Someone on the Brammer forum claims 11.1 KW at 63.  I would still be concerned about the "Best Buy" Geeks doing my warranty work.

No, this will not replace your "real bike" but if your pockets are deep enough you might want to add it to your fleet as a "commuter".

http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=42647.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=42647.0)

Yeah, I didn't have the heart to say it.  ;D

The positive is that it may spur more moto ridership and thus awareness.


EV "bikes" are still just scooters and expensive toys, but at least they're within $$ reach of a whole lot more people than the current crop of EV cars.  They're still ass expensive compared to an equivalent petrol powered moto.

I don't know about "best or worst," but maybe different. Depending on marketing we could see a lot more people get into motorcycling. I can't remember how times I've heard non-riders say, "I'd kill myself on a motorcycle." I think they're intimidated by the physical size of a motorbike. The smaller EV bikes might be the ticket for them. Me? I like almost all bikes and I like em kinda loud, hot and dino burning.

Let's try this again, and I will stack the deck in the petro bike's favor - $.15/kwh and $2.50/gallon
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=42328.msg758635#msg758635 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=42328.msg758635#msg758635)

Ducati Monster 796 (non-ABS) = $9,995
Empulse 10.0, 10 kwh batttery pack = 100 mile range for $13995 (-$2500 tax credit = $11495)


Brammo Empulse (all models)
10kWH/mile - let's say $.15/kWH = $.015/mile
$150 in fuel costs per 10k miles - let's call it $195 assuming 70% charge efficiency
Cost to ride 10k miles = $11690

Ducati monster 796
~40MPG - let's say $2.50/Gallon = $.06ish/mile
$600 in fuel costs per 10k miles
Valve adjustment = $500
Oil changes = $150
Cost to ride 10k miles = $11245

...a difference of $445

il d00d  I love your math.  Ya must be an engineer.  Best way to fight myth and wild ass speculation is with real data. 

BUT.  I am not trading my monster for an electric.  Not just now, anyway.  But ya may not have to pry my dead fingers
off my monster to get me to try one.

 [roll]

The key word here is EQUIVALENT as in one can ride a 796 on a 'short' 150 mile Sunday morning ride at an average speed of 70 mph and get back home in under three hours.  100 miles is nothing. 100 miles is just getting to the good roads around here.  100 miles is getting to the club meeting across town and hoping you're not pushing the bike home.  The brammo isn't anywhere in the same league as a 796 or even a Ninja 250, so quit with your straw man argument while you're still behind il dood.  The 796 also doesn't have to steal public money to make it competitive either.

You've once again missed a good opportunity to add to the conversation.  Feel free to add your own calculations or insights about riding habits, EV or petrol bikes, et cetera.  Anything but another polemical on why you think EVs suck with minimal elaboration and, if we are using fancy logical fallacy terms, ad hominems aimed at anyone that disagrees with you.

So, thanks again.  It has been enriching.  [thumbsup]

Likewise!   [thumbsup]  ;)

So, lets add some reality to the subject and compare apples and well let's just dream the other is an apple for sake of argument.


The other aka Empulse 10

MSRP - $13,995
Tax - $874.69
Public Theft - ($1399.50)
OTD Price - $13,470.19

Warranty - 1 yr
Range - 100 mi
Refuel Time - 240 min
Top Speed - 100 mph
0-60 accel - 3 sec

Major Maint Period - 8000 mi ? based on the Enertia manual
Major Maint Cost - ??? Convienently unpublished.  Maintenance free.  Uh huh. I have some prime swamp land to sell you, but let's just pencil in $0 anyway.
Fuel cost per 24,000 miles using 100% recharging efficiency! - $360.00

Total to own - $13,830.19



Now the actual apple aka Kawasaki ER-6n

MSRP - $6699
Tax - $418.69
Public Theft - $0
OTD Price - $7117.69

Warranty - 1 yr
Range - 162 mi
Refuel Time - 10 min
Top Speed - 130 mph
0-60 accel - 4.4 sec

Major Maint Period - 24,000 mi
Major Maint Cost - $1000 ? Probably high, but I wouldn't want to stack the deck in the ER-6n's favor. you know for being accused of being biased.
Minor Maint Period - 6000 mi (oil changes)
Minor Maint Cost - $66

Fuel Cost per 24,00 mil using avg 45 mpg - $1333.33

Total to Own - $9715.02

So reality says - You're in the hole to the tune of $4115.02 on you're Brammo Empulse.  As stated, They're still ass expensive compared to an equivalent petrol powered moto.

Now back to youre regularly scheduled lala land programming.

Now if you want to buy an Empulse or Enertia 'just because' then have fun  [moto], but don't try to justify the current generation of EV's on a cost basis as they're simply not comparable.

Public Theft....... [clap]

Let's gingerly sidestep the matter of a material comparison of the bikes you chose, likewise the definition of comparable, like it is a landmine that doesn't actually explode when tripped, but instead unleashes waves of very loud, strong opinions in cocentric circles and gives you a headache.

You're telling me that a bike that is much less expensive than another, even factoring in theft (riposte!) actually costs less than the other one.  The more expensive one.  Even if you were to ride it a lot.

Who am I to argue with that?

 [roll]  We're not exclusively talking about cost here; might as well try to tell everyone the Brammo is a better buy than a Bimota then.  We're talking about comparable usage, performance AND cost.  Sure a Bimota is ass expensive even compared to the Brammo, but then the Bimota has a usable range greater than put putting around a major metropolitan area.


So what are people supposed to actually do with their EV bikes il dood?  Inquriing minds just have to know.  What happens when they want to ride futher than the edge of Houston?  Keep in mind this is reality where people have limited time on their hands; say a weekend to get to the Hill Country for a ride then back in Houston by Sunday? Hmmmmmmmmm?  We're waiting.

you're supposed to have other transportation.  this, like many bikes, has a specific purpose.  that's why you should own multiple bikes (and of course a car). 

 

ZAKLY!!

It seems that new technology is always expensive and if it catches on the price comes down over time.  I expect the same with electric bikes.  The technology should improve in time too.  Electrical energy storage is a big problem and gains are
way behind what was expected.  Once we solve the energy storage problem electric bikes and cars will be much more practical.  I'm sensing resistance to change by some here but that's only natural even though it is foolish.  Think of this, we rode horses for maybe 5000 years.  When cars came there were those who put them down as expensive, difficult to maintain.  Hell, if your horse ran out of fuel it could eat grass on the side of the road.  Gas engines, as power for transportation have only been around 100 years + or - a few.  In the history of humans that isn't much.  Change will come even if old farts like me refuse to give up their noisy, smelly, vibrating, symbols of manhood.   

So, you're saying that when when you have been riding the electric bike for a certain distance, and it no longer has any electricity in it, you need to put more in?  Ah, well, then I am glad to


concede


the



point. 

You do indeed need to excited electrons to come from the battery again, in order to propel the vehicle.  Resolved.



Wait.... what?  We're not?  Or you're not? 

I have been absolutely dead consistent in my argument - the electric bike stacks up well, cost wise.  Which it does.  When you use numbers.  This has been the entire scope of my argument.  Your counter-argument is that they cost more because they don't go very far. That is, dollars go magically floating out of your pocket when the battery runs low. Or just because.  Or because their list price is twice as much as a "comparable bike."  And, here goes the land mine, you have failed to define "comparable" in any meaningful way, shape or form.

On that last point, I don't care, not only because you can't be dragged kicking and screaming into a quasi-civil conversation about it, but also because I realize I have been in the absolutely absurd position of having to prove that basic math is not performed with opinion.  There is no OMG button on my calculator, and I don't know how to solve for WTF so we're not ever going to be arguing about the same thing.

This stopped being fun a long time ago, so to avoid the risk of encouraging more creative arithmetic and point confusion here's my concession:

Based on my calculations, the Brammo Empuse costs infinity dollars, is infinity times more expensive than comparable bikes, which is every one in production today and ever.  No one, under any circumstances, would ever want to ride them any distance, not only because their range is zero miles, but also because they also make your balls fall off.  The Brammo Empulse will try to sleep with your wife, will run over your dog when you're not looking, and will drink all your liquor.

The Empulse is not perfect, but it's a huge step in the right direction.

A few years ago, Brammo came out with the Enertia.  It could do just barely over 60mph (which is, like a Ninja 250, almost dangerously slow), and only went 42 miles.

It cost around $14k-$15k, not including "public theft" (I like EVs for commuting, but I have to agree on the wrongness of subsidies).

Now, Brammo releases the Enertia Plus, with twice the range, for $8995.

That's progress.

They've also created the Empulse, which is a helluva lot faster than the original Enertia, goes farther, and was cheaper than the original Enertia.  Let's face it, the Enertia also looks like an embarrassingly wimpy department-store toy.  On the other hand, the Empulse is something that I would not be ashamed to show up on.  

Now as far as getting gubmint intervention out of the markets (subsidies), some early adopters will need to fork over some cash to drive continued progress on electric drivetrain development.  If enough people create demand for the Empulse, it will eventually drive this technology into the realm of competitiveness.  That's the way the market works.  We are slowly starting to see natural market demand for EVs rise.  Why?  Some are eco-conscious, others (like me) have a huge independent streak and just want to flip the bird to Big Oil.  No matter the origin, we are starting to see some market demand.

----------

Some commentary on earlier mathematical posts... the competition for the Empulse isn't some POS Kawasaki.  The Monster 796 is closer to the target demographic.

Additionally... I dunno about where you all live, but here in Hood River, Oregon gas prices start at $3.19/gallon ($3.39/gallon for 91-octane), and they're on the rise again.

Electricity here is primarily created from zero-emission hydroelectric, and it's a lot cheaper than $0.15/kWh.  I paid the local PUD more like $0.10/kWh on my last bill.

The house my wife and I will be moving to next year will have a 4kW grid-tied solar installation, so the zero-emission juice will be even cheaper.  Contract signed, deposit placed, foundation being poured now.

Also, you are only looking at the first 10k or 24k miles.  My commute is 23 miles each way.  52 weeks a year, 5 days a week, minus 7 holidays... that's 11638 miles of commuting.  It'll take me a whopping 2 years to hit your 24k miles, and this kind of commuting is the ideal role for the EV.  Drive to work, park, drive home, maybe run an errand or two, park & charge overnight.  Repeat.

Anyway... I'm just sayin' the monetary imbalance is not the 4 grand stated earlier, and with each additional year the EV looks better still.

On top of the reduced monetary imbalance, there is something intangible about flipping Big Oil the bird and plugging your vehicle into your own source of electricity.  Screw the man, I'll get myself back and forth to work on energy I harvested from the sun at home.

For road trips?  We can continue to use IC engines.  There are biofuel options that can be used for distance driving, and those become a lot more viable (we need less feedstock) if we eliminate IC fuel consumption for commuting.

Now, I love Ducatis and I love engine noises.  I'm hoping we put enough effort into developing Butanol (which can be run straight in most gas vehicles) that we can preserve IC engines as a hobby/enthusiast outlet.  But when it comes to commuting, give me a clean, simple, reliable, home-chargeable option for the daily grind.

Of course... if you really want to go cheap, you need to live within walking distance of work.  Then your commute is not only free, it's healthy, and the whole point of an EV becomes moot (the reality is they're not much good for anything other than local errand-running).

Just my $0.02...

It says 80 miles range, top speed of over 60mph.

For the Enertia Plus, they give this breakdown...

(http://www.brammo.com/images/know_your_range_eplus.jpg)

http://www.brammo.com/enertia-plus/ (http://www.brammo.com/enertia-plus/)
(toward the bottom of the page)

The faster you go and/or the more stop-and-go, the worse your range.  Steady-state moderate speeds are best.  I'm not sure how they define "Urban commuting".

Cool, that's at least a bit of realism there.

I'm 32 miles by freeway from my shop... would have to plug it in during the day.

But I'm not going to be buying one in any case.

 [popcorn]

The Brammo is nice and good, but check this thing out:

http://www.motoczysz.com/main.php?area=news_view&art_id=119&p_id=332&return_path=home (http://www.motoczysz.com/main.php?area=news_view&art_id=119&p_id=332&return_path=home)
(http://www.motoczysz.com/images/photos/bonneville.jpg)

Here's a talk on their Isle of Man racer from 2009:

Motoczysz E1pc Electric MotorcycleTTXGP Isle of Man (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUPscwmfQPQ#normal)

 [drool]

That Motoczysz E1 is a badass motorcycle.  Wonder how far his battery pack/control system/motor would go in a regular street environment?

Then again, anything Michael Czysz develops will cost you more than your average firstborn is worth, so I don't know why I bother asking.  [roll]

Yeah but....I have an above average firstborn.



Hrmmmm.

actually the way i interpret it is...

sustained moderate/high speed reduces range. stop and go increases range... wonder if they are using regenerative braking?

I don't think Brammo is (yet), but this racer is:

http://www.roadracerx.com/features/backmarker/backmarker-chip-yates-is-a-man-on-zero-emissions-mission-part-2-of-my-interview-with-the-creator-of-%E2%80%9Cthe-worlds-most-technically-advanced-electric-superbike%E2%80%9D-2/ (http://www.roadracerx.com/features/backmarker/backmarker-chip-yates-is-a-man-on-zero-emissions-mission-part-2-of-my-interview-with-the-creator-of-%E2%80%9Cthe-worlds-most-technically-advanced-electric-superbike%E2%80%9D-2/)

He claims that the front-wheel system he's developed means the difference between 194 hp in hand (starting from 200 with the batteries fully topped) at the end of a 12 lap Laguna Seca race, vs. 69 ponies without.

I read a track-test review of the MotoCzysz E1pc (in MotorCyclist magazine; it doesn't appear to be online) that says the numbers are roughly comparable to an overweight 600cc sportbike... but goes on to say that comparison misses the point - the power that is available at any speed is completely unlike anything produced by any internal combustion engine - instead of a torque "curve," the dyno shows basically a massive rectangle of torque.

I'm no early adopter (though I would be if I could afford it) and I distinctly remember wondering why I'd ever want to carry a big old brick cell phone that had lousy reception, bad battery life, was hella expensive and was a poor substitute for the pay phones that were on every street corner. I'm glad somebody else did.

Electric superbikes are coming, and they're going to be one hell of a lot of fun.

All I have to say is peak torque available from zero rpm equals serious fun. I am going to wait on the electric sport bike, but as soon as the Zero motors supermoto becomes widely available...sign me up. There is no better urban assault vehicle than a silent torque monster supermoto!