Ducati Monster Forum

Kitchen Sink => No Moto Content => Topic started by: supertjeduc on October 23, 2010, 10:46:56 AM

Title: Big boys small toys
Post by: supertjeduc on October 23, 2010, 10:46:56 AM
Bought myself a new car , know you in the States like them big
But i like them small
Don't think you can buy them in the US but that wil change

(http://pics.auto-commerce.nl/ac0093/foto/128766203504.JPG)

It's a Abarth 500
Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: Slide Panda on October 23, 2010, 11:14:10 AM
Boys on top gear like the Abath [thumbsup]

Not everyone in the states wants big. I'd so rock a Lotus or an Atom
Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: IZ on October 23, 2010, 12:08:55 PM
Pretty cool.  I think a have a couple pics of those when I was in EUR?  

Yuu is right.  We're seeing a lot more smaller vehicles on the road these days. 

I've been checking out the Nissan Juke all week.  We're going for a test drive today.

White/black rims looks good but gun metal with bronze rims.  [thumbsup]  Maybe even the Senna color scheme..gunmetal with black rims/red stripe.

(https://farm5.static.flickr.com/4126/4972030235_373c72d11c.jpg)

http://www.wheelsnext.com/preview-wheels-on-my-car/D7742AC7-3048-98A1-6E98DD6842179D12.html  (http://www.wheelsnext.com/preview-wheels-on-my-car/D7742AC7-3048-98A1-6E98DD6842179D12.html)


Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: erkishhorde on October 23, 2010, 12:41:48 PM
My biggest complaint about the smaller cars is that I can't understand the safety. It doesn't look like there is any room for crush zones to allow energy absorption. I've seen crash tests for the smart car so I understand that they can make a rock solid car but what happens to the people inside the car when it gets plowed by hummer. It's like a helmet: too hard is not good for the squishies inside.

That does look pretty slick though. I'd rock it if you could justify my safety concerns.
Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: supertjeduc on October 23, 2010, 01:13:07 PM
Quote from: erkishhorde on October 23, 2010, 12:41:48 PM
My biggest complaint about the smaller cars is that I can't understand the safety. It doesn't look like there is any room for crush zones to allow energy absorption. I've seen crash tests for the smart car so I understand that they can make a rock solid car but what happens to the people inside the car when it gets plowed by hummer. It's like a helmet: too hard is not good for the squishies inside.

That does look pretty slick though. I'd rock it if you could justify my safety concerns.

It has 5 stars for safety from EuroNCAP
And mine has more airbags
http://www.euroncap.com/tests/Fiat_500_2007/298.aspx (http://www.euroncap.com/tests/Fiat_500_2007/298.aspx)
Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: Turf on October 23, 2010, 01:13:11 PM
Quote from: erkishhorde on October 23, 2010, 12:41:48 PM
My biggest complaint about the smaller cars is that I can't understand the safety. It doesn't look like there is any room for crush zones to allow energy absorption. I've seen crash tests for the smart car so I understand that they can make a rock solid car but what happens to the people inside the car when it gets plowed by hummer. It's like a helmet: too hard is not good for the squishies inside.

That does look pretty slick though. I'd rock it if you could justify my safety concerns.

you ride a motorcycle

safety is so overrated
Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: IZ on October 23, 2010, 01:17:45 PM
Quote from: Paper5tr3et7 on October 23, 2010, 01:13:11 PM
you ride a motorcycle

safety is so overrated

my first thought.
Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: erkishhorde on October 23, 2010, 02:53:48 PM
Quote from: Paper5tr3et7 on October 23, 2010, 01:13:11 PM
you ride a motorcycle

safety is so overrated

Mmm... maybe but if I'm going to sacrifice the open air feel for a cage, I'd rather it be a safe cage.
Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: erkishhorde on October 23, 2010, 02:55:32 PM
Quote from: supertjeduc on October 23, 2010, 01:13:07 PM
It has 5 stars for safety from EuroNCAP
And mine has more airbags
http://www.euroncap.com/tests/Fiat_500_2007/298.aspx (http://www.euroncap.com/tests/Fiat_500_2007/298.aspx)

Holy crap, in the frontal crash video, the passenger side air bag breaks the windshield when it deploys.
Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: ducpainter on October 23, 2010, 03:00:11 PM
Quote from: erkishhorde on October 23, 2010, 02:55:32 PM
Holy crap, in the frontal crash video, the passenger side air bag breaks the windshield when it deploys.
That isn't uncommon.

Often times airbags will 'break' the occupant.
Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: derby on October 23, 2010, 03:06:34 PM
Quote from: erkishhorde on October 23, 2010, 02:55:32 PM
Holy crap, in the frontal crash video, the passenger side air bag breaks the windshield when it deploys.

Quote from: humorless dp on October 23, 2010, 03:00:11 PM
That isn't uncommon.

Often times airbags will 'break' the occupant.

yup... they're supposed to keep you alive, not keep you out of pain.

broken noses and black eyes are not uncommon.
Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: ute on October 23, 2010, 03:19:04 PM
Wow that is one nice ride

is it as good as they say ...on the PT forums they are all pumped about the "Abarth"   Haven't seen any in the Chrysler dealerships yet . This has to be one of the first's
Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: ducpainter on October 23, 2010, 03:25:10 PM
Quote from: derby on October 23, 2010, 03:06:34 PM
yup... they're supposed to keep you alive, not keep you out of pain.

broken noses and black eyes are not uncommon.
When I did auto body work we had customers that were much more seriously injured than that.

Chemical burns were common from the propellants, and one lady had several broken bones.

It was several years ago and I believe some advances have been made, but people need to realize that when a violent explosion takes place inches from you there will be repercussions.

Cars aren't built for the primary purpose of crashing anyway. ;D
Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: stopintime on October 23, 2010, 03:44:07 PM
About the NCAP stars - a small five star car is still more unsafe than a larger five star car. The stars are awarded as a result of the effort and which level is obtainable for the car in question, not as an absolute safety result.
Not that I care - if I'm willing to risk my life on a bike, I'm not going to count stars [roll]

The 500 Abarth is super cool [thumbsup] pretty safe too.

An alternative for cool minis....

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l394/stopintime/aston_martin_cygnet_01.jpg)

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/12/aston-martin-cygnet/ (http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/12/aston-martin-cygnet/)
Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: J5 on October 23, 2010, 04:07:12 PM
Quote from: stopintime on October 23, 2010, 03:44:07 PM
About the NCAP stars - a small five star car is still more unsafe than a larger five star car. The stars are awarded as a result of the effort and which level is obtainable for the car in question, not as an absolute safety result.
Not that I care - if I'm willing to risk my life on a bike, I'm not going to count stars [roll]

5 stars is 5 stars

this rating is achieved using crash test dummies that ar full of sensors that check impact points

thats not to say a 5 star rated big car isnt safer

the problem lies in what the min requirement rating is , and that the fact that there is now many cars reaching the highest level

so what happens next , the min rating will increase
Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: Speedbag on October 23, 2010, 04:09:16 PM
Quote from: humorless dp on October 23, 2010, 03:25:10 PM
When I did auto body work we had customers that were much more seriously injured than that.

Chemical burns were common from the propellants, and one lady had several broken bones.

It was several years ago and I believe some advances have been made, but people need to realize that when a violent explosion takes place inches from you there will be repercussions.

Cars aren't built for the primary purpose of crashing anyway. ;D

+1

My Mom lost the tip of a finger via the steering wheel airbag trying to correct their path in the crash that claimed my Dad, who had slumped over at the wheel.
Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: LMT on October 23, 2010, 04:20:27 PM
People sit to close to the steering wheel. Smaller people.  The arms, extended straight out, should just break at the wrist, at the wheel.

I saw lots of people damage from airbags due to the driver being to close.
Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: stopintime on October 23, 2010, 04:48:04 PM
Quote from: J5 on October 23, 2010, 04:07:12 PM
5 stars is 5 stars

this rating is achieved using crash test dummies that ar full of sensors that check impact points

thats not to say a 5 star rated big car isnt safer

the problem lies in what the min requirement rating is , and that the fact that there is now many cars reaching the highest level

so what happens next , the min rating will increase

While we're already off topic - you're not entirely correct. The frontal crash is measured against an object of similar mass, which only seldom is the case if you're in a small car hitting another car. The other small/large-depending tests are rated against a fixed mass, that's correct.
Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: GAAN on October 23, 2010, 04:56:23 PM
Several years ago

a saw a BMW 3 series that hit a Chrysler 300M head on

Crumple zones, Airbags, Seatbelt Pretensioners, High Tensile side impact beams, ABS,

All the safety devices were in place and used

Everybody died anyway

3 in the BMW

2 in the 300M

Safety ratings and high tech gadgets don't work near as well as simply slowing down




Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: supertjeduc on October 23, 2010, 05:20:25 PM
It's about 30 years ago when had my last car crash
It wasn't my foult then
And i don't care for safety only for fun
This abarth is al about fun , different tuners already can get about
250 hp out of this small engine
And thats what i like
Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: sbrguy on October 23, 2010, 05:44:03 PM
Quote from: erkishhorde on October 23, 2010, 12:41:48 PM
My biggest complaint about the smaller cars is that I can't understand the safety. It doesn't look like there is any room for crush zones to allow energy absorption. I've seen crash tests for the smart car so I understand that they can make a rock solid car but what happens to the people inside the car when it gets plowed by hummer. It's like a helmet: too hard is not good for the squishies inside.

I'd rock it if you could justify my safety concerns.

yeap but you have to remember you always make tradeoffs.

you buy a hummer ok , well it eats gas like crazy and is expensive, or you buy a smller car and save.  so which one do you buy?

it depends on the person's wants and needs, obviously if you are planning for worste case all the time you would have to drive a tank and nothing else, but it wouldn't be very practical or such so there are tradeoffs.

Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: Howie on October 23, 2010, 09:07:17 PM
Many of the air bag related injuries in the US were due to mandated air bags that were too big and too powerful. Pretensioning seat belts, in many cases didn't hit the seen yet.  In recent years the size and power have been reduced, and sometimes is dependent on the severity of the crash.  As Mary also pointed out, seating position plays an important part too.  Wrist injuries can be reduced by driving with your hands at the 20 to 8 position instead of a quarter to 3 or 10 to 2.  Also, get yourself back in the seat far enough so your arms are almost straight.  Most important, wear your seat belt.

Oh, in addition to what mother says, if people understood wonderful (said sarcastically) devices like stability control and radar braking will not necessarily save their dumb asses and a five star crash rating is not guaranteed to save you from serious injury i think you would see both less accidents, death and injury.
Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: erkishhorde on October 23, 2010, 09:47:35 PM
Lol, looks like we've drifted into a safety debate. I'm interested in the rating. Is a small car rated differently than a larger car in Europe or America? I don't really know anything about any of the the safety ratings. I'd prefer to have 1 larger scale that goes from 1 to 10 and group small and large vehicles together rather than have 2 separate ratings because in reality, you're not only gonna crash into things of the same size. If it is different scales, a high rating is misleading on the lower scale when you don't know the reference point to the other scale.
Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: Howie on October 23, 2010, 09:56:04 PM
Quote from: erkishhorde on October 23, 2010, 09:47:35 PM
Lol, looks like we've drifted into a safety debate. I'm interested in the rating. Is a small car rated differently than a larger car in Europe or America? I don't really know anything about any of the the safety ratings. I'd prefer to have 1 larger scale that goes from 1 to 10 and group small and large vehicles together rather than have 2 separate ratings because in reality, you're not only gonna crash into things of the same size. If it is different scales, a high rating is misleading on the lower scale when you don't know the reference point to the other scale.

I have no idea about present European ratings, but in the US all are rated the same way. 
Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: erkishhorde on October 23, 2010, 11:09:03 PM
Quote from: howie on October 23, 2010, 09:07:17 PM
Many of the air bag related injuries in the US were due to mandated air bags that were too big and too powerful. Pretensioning seat belts, in many cases didn't hit the seen yet.  In recent years the size and power have been reduced, and sometimes is dependent on the severity of the crash.  As Mary also pointed out, seating position plays an important part too.  Wrist injuries can be reduced by driving with your hands at the 20 to 8 position instead of a quarter to 3 or 10 to 2.  Also, get yourself back in the seat far enough so your arms are almost straight.  Most important, wear your seat belt.

I wanna see crash injury results from those idiots that put their feet on the dash or out the window.
Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: J5 on October 23, 2010, 11:55:12 PM
Quote from: stopintime on October 23, 2010, 04:48:04 PM
While we're already off topic - you're not entirely correct. The frontal crash is measured against an object of similar mass, which only seldom is the case if you're in a small car hitting another car. The other small/large-depending tests are rated against a fixed mass, that's correct.

this website expains all the Euro Ncap tests

http://www.euroncap.com/testprocedures.aspx (http://www.euroncap.com/testprocedures.aspx)

no mention of different tests for different cars
Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: J5 on October 23, 2010, 11:56:49 PM
Quote from: Mother on October 23, 2010, 04:56:23 PM
Several years ago

a saw a BMW 3 series that hit a Chrysler 300M head on

Crumple zones, Airbags, Seatbelt Pretensioners, High Tensile side impact beams, ABS,

All the safety devices were in place and used

Everybody died anyway

3 in the BMW

2 in the 300M

Safety ratings and high tech gadgets don't work near as well as simply slowing down






how true, i remember watching top gear with a smart that went into a concrete barrier at 60 mph , it survied ok , drivers door could still be opened, but the statement was made that the occupants prob wouldnt survive from the sudden stop
Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: stopintime on October 24, 2010, 12:43:33 AM
Quote from: J5 on October 23, 2010, 11:55:12 PM
this website expains all the Euro Ncap tests

http://www.euroncap.com/testprocedures.aspx (http://www.euroncap.com/testprocedures.aspx)

no mention of different tests for different cars

From the website "frontal impact":

It simulates one car having a frontal impact with another car of similar mass.
Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: J5 on October 24, 2010, 12:56:46 AM
Quote from: stopintime on October 24, 2010, 12:43:33 AM
From the website "frontal impact":

It simulates one car having a frontal impact with another car of similar mass.


true but i feel thats just a discrepancy of the text as the diagram shows specific measurements of the object that the car hits

and in true standard testing form you dont have different crashes for different cars to meet a fixed standard , all vehicles must perform the exact same tests to meet a fixed standard

(http://www.euroncap.com/files/front_impact_how---970309d2-bc10-4632-91c9-78b6923c7620.gif)
Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: stopintime on October 24, 2010, 01:25:08 AM
If a small car hits a larger car, the small car will not only stop - it will be pushed backwards. Hitting a fixed object is like hitting a car of similar mass (speed, hit, stop). Hitting a larger car adds a reverse factor (speed, hit, stop, reverse). It's a difference - how much it matters is debatable.

.... and the Abarth is still very cool [thumbsup]
Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: hadesducati848 on October 24, 2010, 01:46:22 AM
my GF just got this about 2 months ago

(http://i454.photobucket.com/albums/qq261/hades300zx/CWC_Brabus.jpg)

and i was really surprised about the safety ratings. i figure its got to be safer then her riding her monster to and from work every in the rain
and with really bad traffic.



smart Car Roof Strength Test - Tridon safety cell proves itself again (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSaffWbNmV8#normal)


Hummer versus Smart (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNE8nojig9w&feature=watch_response#normal)


Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: hadesducati848 on October 24, 2010, 01:51:57 AM
smart car crash (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ju6t-yyoU8s&feature=player_embedded#normal)
Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: hadesducati848 on October 24, 2010, 02:03:25 AM
Crash Test: 2008 Smart Car ForTwo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mz-s1sIoLhU&NR=1#normal)

thats the last of the smart car crash test vids that i had
not sure how much better the abarth would do, but small is cool
Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: badgalbetty on October 24, 2010, 04:36:43 AM
ooooh frightening. The smart car does well but as the one man said the car seems to do better than the occupants. I cannot imagine the massive internal injuries one would suffer.
Mother had the best advice , just slow down. Please.
I have 20 years of driving a semi no tickets no accidents. My rig with triple trailers would be 105,000 lbs and 106 feet long. Whatever I hit at 55mph would be done.I drive like an old lady slow , carefully and ...........oh wait! I am an old lady........ [laugh]
Just take it easy now the wet season is upon us please boys and girls......... [thumbsup]
Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: Speedbag on October 24, 2010, 06:07:58 AM
Quote from: erkishhorde on October 23, 2010, 11:09:03 PM
I wanna see crash injury results from those idiots that put their feet on the dash or out the window.

Feet on the dash? Don't do it - heard a story from a highway trooper that had come upon what appeared to be a very minor collision. A girl in the passenger seat was sitting with her feet on the dash. When the bags went off, so did one of her feet....
Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: abby normal on October 24, 2010, 08:47:20 AM
Quote from: badgalbetty on October 24, 2010, 04:36:43 AM
ooooh frightening. The smart car does well but as the one man said the car seems to do better than the occupants. I cannot imagine the massive internal injuries one would suffer.
Mother had the best advice , just slow down. Please.
I have 20 years of driving a semi no tickets no accidents. My rig with triple trailers would be 105,000 lbs and 106 feet long. Whatever I hit at 55mph would be done.I drive like an old lady slow , carefully and ...........oh wait! I am an old lady........ [laugh]
Just take it easy now the wet season is upon us please boys and girls......... [thumbsup]

Triple trailers?  Holy crap, where was that?  The outback?  I've seen those things rolling ...
Looks like they kinda wiggle constantly.  Re: small cars.  If everyone made the decision go small and efficient, there wouldn't be a problem.  I've heard numerous people say,
"if I'm in an accident, I want the bigger car so I'll be ok".  As long as that kind of self centered attitude exists, voluntary reductions in fossil fuel usage in the US will not occur.
We need to collectively recognize that the other half of "united we stand" is "divided we
Fall"
Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: GAAN on October 24, 2010, 12:30:53 PM
they run triples in the U.S.

Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: supertjeduc on October 31, 2010, 11:19:02 AM
I got it
(http://supertjeduc.zenfolio.com/img/s9/v14/p505118754-4.jpg)

(http://supertjeduc.zenfolio.com/img/s10/v17/p231980339-4.jpg)

(http://supertjeduc.zenfolio.com/img/s9/v13/p507102277-4.jpg)
Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: stopintime on October 31, 2010, 11:25:26 AM
Cool  8)

Is the front bumper piece larger than on the normal version? Larger radiator?
How do you compare the suspension with the normal version?
(it has some medium reviews and I wonder if the Abarth is better)
Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: supertjeduc on October 31, 2010, 12:01:47 PM
Quote from: stopintime on October 31, 2010, 11:25:26 AM
Cool  8)

Is the front bumper piece larger than on the normal version? Larger radiator?
How do you compare the suspension with the normal version?
(it has some medium reviews and I wonder if the Abarth is better)

Yes the bumper piece is bigger (turbo and intercooler)
Suspension is good

If those guys like it it's good enough for me  ;D
Top Gear Fiat 500 Abarth SS (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UpAFi9nIJVQ#normal)
Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: erkishhorde on October 31, 2010, 01:20:17 PM
Quote from: hadesducati848 on October 24, 2010, 01:51:57 AM
smart car crash (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ju6t-yyoU8s&feature=player_embedded#normal)

This vid and the one you posted after it are the ones I was thinking of. Even though the small cars can get "good" ratings, it doesn't mean it's as safe as something larger since the ratings are scaled by car size.



Slick looking car supertjeduc!
Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: Howie on October 31, 2010, 02:55:21 PM
Well, let's see.  They crashed two small cars at almost double the speed NCAP tests them at with no crash of larger cars to compare.  They also crashed them  without crash test dummies with impact sensors.  Not much of a test.  If you look at some of the tests on older large cars on NCAP's sight you will see some of them did not fare so well.  http://www.euroncap.com/results.aspx (http://www.euroncap.com/results.aspx)
Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: GAAN on October 31, 2010, 06:38:21 PM
When the prius and the insight came out

I took several extrication courses specific to new vehicles

The "safest" vehicle was the new VW Beetle

as far as cab intrusion from impact and rollover

the issue with the ability of the vehicle to resist intrusion was energy transfer

the occupants suffered far less injury from initial impact

but

the injuries sustained from secondary impact (organs vs. body) were significantly higher
Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: Turf on October 31, 2010, 07:48:51 PM
Quote from: Mother on October 31, 2010, 06:38:21 PM
When the prius and the insight came out

I took several extrication courses specific to new vehicles

The "safest" vehicle was the new VW Beetle


because no one would be caught dead in one
Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: supertjeduc on November 01, 2010, 01:25:53 AM
I just read that the people killed in traffic accidents in the US is four times higher then overhere in the Netherland
There are a lot of small cars overhere so they must be safe enough
So maybe those big cars ain't as safe as you all think
Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: GAAN on November 01, 2010, 02:35:11 AM
im going to guess that demographic and socioeconomic factors play a larger part in that number than the safety of larger cars vs smaller cars

in my experience I have never witnessed an MVC where the lug nut factor did not effect the outcome
Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: zooom on November 01, 2010, 06:54:36 AM
Quote from: badgalbetty on October 24, 2010, 04:36:43 AM
oh wait! I am an old lady........ 

no you aren't...you aren't old at all!
Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: Popeye the Sailor on November 01, 2010, 08:17:38 AM
Quote from: Mother on November 01, 2010, 02:35:11 AM
im going to guess that demographic and socioeconomic factors play a larger part in that number than the safety of larger cars vs smaller cars

in my experience I have never witnessed an MVC where the lug nut factor did not effect the outcome

I keep a handful of lugnuts in the sidecases of the BMW for safety.
Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: erkishhorde on November 01, 2010, 02:10:32 PM
Quote from: supertjeduc on November 01, 2010, 01:25:53 AM
I just read that the people killed in traffic accidents in the US is four times higher then overhere in the Netherland
There are a lot of small cars overhere so they must be safe enough
So maybe those big cars ain't as safe as you all think

Hehe, I think the drivers in the US are some of the worst in the world. No data to back that up though.
Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: Turf on November 01, 2010, 03:06:48 PM
Quote from: erkishhorde on November 01, 2010, 02:10:32 PM
Hehe, I think the drivers in the US are some of the worst in the world. No data to back that up though.

I'd have to agree, the states are generically the worst...out of the states i'd have to say texas, people just casually drive on the line on the make the beast with two backsing interstate, turnsignal use is laughable and it would seem like you throw the car into park and jump out and where ever it stops you call it parked.
Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: Le Pirate on November 02, 2010, 09:25:51 AM
love the 500  [thumbsup]


I'm a big fan of small cars. I keep hoping to one day own a VW polo in the US (specifically: Polo GTI).


is it safe...safe enough for me. It's like I tell my friends, family, inlaws (and all other Texans who love big trucks, and only big trucks): I buy my cars to drive, not to crash.
Title: Re: Big boys small toys
Post by: Speedbag on November 02, 2010, 02:22:22 PM
I have to laugh when I see the title of this thread.

That is all.