Orange County Choppers' HQ faces foreclosure
http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20101118/BIZ/11180319/-1/SITEMAP (http://www.recordonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20101118/BIZ/11180319/-1/SITEMAP)
Maybe they could make the place a giant indoor "Flea Market" for bolt-on motorcycle parts
Gee, didn't see that coming. [roll]
How the hell did they think that the market for such custom bikes would continue on forever? ???
I would have kept slaving in the original building and made it work, raking in the dough while I could.....
If they get foreclosed on and end up lookin' for a new place, are they gonna move the show from Discovery to HGTV?
lol
Piss-poor cash management and decision making, not surprising coming from the meat-heads behind OCC.
as stated in the article, this has nothing to do with his ability to pay and everything to do with him trying to get a loan modification. in that respect he's doing what most other people in the country have done/are trying to do.
Idiot. Why in the hell did they need a $15 million dollar building? GE is just as dumb in this thinking a luxury item would prevail when disposable income falls.
Quote from: justinrhenry on November 30, 2010, 05:31:50 PM
has nothing to do with his ability to pay and everything to do with him trying to get a loan modification.
Can you get a loan modification if you're fully able to pay?
Maybe he's trying to free up some $$ to pay Jr his 20%...
Quote from: muskrat on November 30, 2010, 06:28:45 PM
GE is just as dumb in this thinking a luxury item would prevail when disposable income falls.
You might be surprised at how some of the "toy" companies have done during the recession:
PII
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=polaris+industries (http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=polaris+industries)
(http://www4d.wolframalpha.com/Calculate/MSP/MSP334019d8g1g47ch6fdf7000049aeaebf4d79if7i?MSPStoreType=image/gif&s=56&w=496&h=250)
My disdain for GE Financing will skew my opinion on this highly important matter.
This is a great situation.
OCC: GE, we need to borrow a lot of money.
GE: Sounds like a good business plan. Here's your cash.
Real estate market goes to crap.
OCC: The the building isn't worth what it was so adjust our loan.
GE: What?
Instead of making mortgage payment OCC should spend the payment money on lobbyist. They may be able to get a bail out for chopper manufacturers.
Quote from: mitt on November 30, 2010, 07:28:27 PM
You might be surprised at how some of the "toy" companies have done during the recession:
PII
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=polaris+industries (http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=polaris+industries)
(http://www4d.wolframalpha.com/Calculate/MSP/MSP334019d8g1g47ch6fdf7000049aeaebf4d79if7i?MSPStoreType=image/gif&s=56&w=496&h=250)
there are many that have done well of course but OCC is not an affordable brand for most. Either way, I would have done what was suggested above. Live in the old shop and bank roll.
Maybe Paul Jr. Designs are puttin' the whoopin' on them and they don't want to admit it. I know, I know, sounds good though.
Quote from: The Architect on November 30, 2010, 07:45:25 PM
My disdain for GE Financing will skew my opinion on this highly important matter.
This is a great situation.
OCC: GE, we need to borrow a lot of money.
GE: Sounds like a good business plan. Here's your cash.
Real estate market goes to crap.
OCC: The the building isn't worth what it was so adjust our loan.
GE: What?
Instead of making mortgage payment OCC should spend the payment money on lobbyist. They may be able to get a bail out for chopper manufacturers.
Could be, since I'm sure GE doesn't want to be stuck holding this huge property with a negative equity value in the area of about 5 million. Could be they just want to bail. When my Uncle passed away my Aunt was left with a huge payment book on a huge boat he bought. Resale value was thousands less than the loan. The boat was in his corporate name. After speaking to the accountant she let the bank have it. Could be OCC is belly up and the Tietels are bailing. Fact is we can only speculate.
Crux of the problem seems to me to be a poor decision on OCC side.
They want a loan modification. Which at this time is pretty normal, interest rates are way down. Cool that makes sense to me.
Problem is when they started trying to strong arm the lender by not paying. Yeah... not going to work. Strong arm tactics won't work when you've got no strength. So assuming they have the money to have paid that missed then it's just a case stupid decision making.... not to mention building a hugely expensive building that, I'm sure, cost way more than what the business needed...
I dunno. I just don't get it anyways. From day one I've never understood the draw that they seem to have over people. None of their stuff is so fantastic or original that I could fathom the cost. There's plenty of other custom bike makers out there with more interesting products IMO
Quote from: Sad Panda on December 01, 2010, 05:37:52 AM
They want a loan modification. Which at this time is pretty normal, interest rates are way down. Cool that makes sense to me.
I would not fault them at all for trying to adjust the interest rate. Good for them. But adjusting the interest rate is different than trying to changing the value of the loan (from what I remember reading.) I don't care what the building is worth, you borrowed $12.5 mil.
And yes the owners can easily walk away from the building and the loan. That's the risk the lender took. Risk vs. Reward.
(if only it was like the old days where people couldn't hide behind the name of a corporation.) Side note: In an odd way you have to give them credit for not just closing up shop and walking away. Or is this just a stall tactic?
Quote from: The Architect on December 01, 2010, 07:34:19 AM
I would not fault them at all for trying to adjust the interest rate. Good for them. But adjusting the interest rate is different than trying to changing the value of the loan (from what I remember reading.) I don't care what the building is worth, you borrowed $12.5 mil.
Yeah - I wasn't so clear on that bit. I hope they are not trying to ask the lender to write off $4 Mill of lost value in the building. That's daft if that's what they are trying.
look at it this way.
they are just doing what every business, person, everywhere is trying to do.
get something for nothing. they don't want to pay over the value of the building, simple as that. now we say that they did something wrong too bad.
but then again why do companies get to write off losses? shouldn't they just keep doing business and not have any sort of tax breaks or such for losses, why don't we then say again, too bad to the companies?
same thing everyone wants to not pay what they have to pay originially if the value goes down. its always about something for nothing, no person and no company is above doing that. Show me a successfull company i'll show you a company that will try the same tactics of wanting something for nothing.
Polaris is a completely different animal with a diverse product line that extends into defense vehicles and golf carts. They make more than un-rideable white trash "art".
Quote from: mitt on November 30, 2010, 07:28:27 PM
You might be surprised at how some of the "toy" companies have done during the recession:
PII
http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=polaris+industries (http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=polaris+industries)
(http://www4d.wolframalpha.com/Calculate/MSP/MSP334019d8g1g47ch6fdf7000049aeaebf4d79if7i?MSPStoreType=image/gif&s=56&w=496&h=250)
Quote from: gregrnel on December 01, 2010, 08:25:37 AM
Polaris is a completely different animal with a diverse product line that extends into defense vehicles and golf carts. They make more than un-rideable white trash "art".
lol
What dumbass bank is lending a trendy brand that kind of money anyway? "Uhh, we made 5 million in t-shirt and hat sales last year, which we excpect to maintain for every year for the rest of time." That would be like basing Sisqo's future earnings on the sucess of The Thong Song.
Quote from: Fergus on November 30, 2010, 06:55:35 PM
Can you get a loan modification if you're fully able to pay?
absolutely.
Time to call the bank regarding my mortgage. [evil]
Quote from: Speedbag on December 01, 2010, 03:53:27 PM
Time to call the bank regarding my mortgage. [evil]
pretty much what homeowners have been doing for the last few years...
Except mine is worth way more than I owe.
(which might be a problem)
OCC would not be nearly as big as they are without the TV show and their Fans. I have seen posts where Paul Sr. is a tool to the Fans at events. Now that the show is gone, OCC will not be as popular.
i thought the show was back on? jr vs. sr?
I think they pulled it after 5 episodes.
I'm going to default on my checking account to see if I can remodify my deposits. [evil]
This default business to force a modification is crap. A risk is a risk is a risk.
From what I know you have to be late on your mortgage to do a loan modification. There is also a government program that certain people qualify for that will help them get a modification as well, although I heard that it's very tough to get approval (obviously for residential homes).
Getting a modification means is they lower your rate on what you owe so your payments go down, it doesn't lower the amount you owe.
As for residential mortgages, if you lost your job and got another one that pays you 1/2 as much, a loan modification isn't crap, it may save you from becoming homeless. This is what millions of people are going through right now. A lot of these people owned their homes for years before all this mortgage crap went down but still lost their businesses, savings and ultimately their homes. A lot of innocent bystanders, such a shame that stupidity and uncontrollable greed has really screwed us all.
Sorry
/Rant
Quote from: lilmonster on December 01, 2010, 04:34:58 PM
I think they pulled it after 5 episodes.
I guess somebody just can't handle fame and fortune. While they are at it, please get that Kate Plus 8 lady off the air, too. The Wife still watches it from time to time and Kate is driving me up the wall.
Quote from: Goat_Herder on December 02, 2010, 09:15:04 AM
While they are at it, please get that Kate Plus 8 lady off the air, too.
+1
And pretty much everything on E! :P
Quote from: Speedbag on December 02, 2010, 01:28:06 PM
+1
And pretty much everything on E! Bravo :P
Bravo link (http://video.adultswim.com/robot-chicken/ass-pirates-of-the-caribbean.html)
Quote from: 2 Wheel Wanderer on December 02, 2010, 01:40:40 AM
From what I know you have to be late on your mortgage to do a loan modification. There is also a government program that certain people qualify for that will help them get a modification as well, although I heard that it's very tough to get approval (obviously for residential homes).
Getting a modification means is they lower your rate on what you owe so your payments go down, it doesn't lower the amount you owe.
As for residential mortgages, if you lost your job and got another one that pays you 1/2 as much, a loan modification isn't crap, it may save you from becoming homeless. This is what millions of people are going through right now. A lot of these people owned their homes for years before all this mortgage crap went down but still lost their businesses, savings and ultimately their homes. A lot of innocent bystanders, such a shame that stupidity and uncontrollable greed has really screwed us all.
Sorry
/Rant
Point of clarification: You don't become homeless, you are forced out of an asset you couldn't afford and rent instead.
And if you have a mortgage you don't own your home, you're renting money from the bank. No one put a gun to anyone's head and said they had to refi their home, they had to spend $500k on a 2 bedroom home in California or Southern Florida, etc.
Anyways, back onto topic ...
Cheers,
Adam
Quote from: DrDesmosedici on December 02, 2010, 01:46:11 PM
Point of clarification: You don't become homeless, you are forced out of an asset you couldn't afford and rent instead.
And if you have a mortgage you don't own your home, you're renting money from the bank. No one put a gun to anyone's head and said they had to refi their home, they had to spend $500k on a 2 bedroom home in California or Southern Florida, etc.
Anyways, back onto topic ...
Cheers,
Adam
[thumbsup] [thumbsup]
(http://images.sodahead.com/polls/000587479/polls_toothless_4428_157762_answer_5_xlarge.jpeg)
[coffee]
Quote from: DrDesmosedici on December 02, 2010, 01:46:11 PM
Point of clarification: You don't become homeless, you are forced out of an asset you couldn't afford and rent instead.
And if you have a mortgage you don't own your home, you're renting money from the bank. No one put a gun to anyone's head and said they had to refi their home, they had to spend $500k on a 2 bedroom home in California or Southern Florida, etc.
Anyways, back onto topic ...
Cheers,
Adam
The homeless thing was a over the top expression but I'm sure it's happened.
And if you have a mortgage you don't own your home, you're renting money from the bank. Sorry Fail..
If the bank really owned your home they would have to pay the taxes and insurance.
No one put a gun to anyone's head and said they had to refi their home, they had to spend $500k on a 2 bedroom home in California or Southern Florida,etc.
True, no one did but no one told them they would lose their jobs a few years later and wouldn't be able to afford their home anymore. This story is all too familiar.
Edit: FYI, I could give a crap about OCC, their bikes are lame. I was just explaining what a loan modification does then on a bit of a rant.
Quote from: 2 Wheel Wanderer on December 02, 2010, 05:09:22 PM
And if you have a mortgage you don't own your home, you're renting money from the bank. Sorry Fail..
If the bank really owned your home they would have to pay the taxes and insurance.
Interesting point of view. Answer me this:
1.) When you're paying a note on a car, do you pay the insurance and registration?
2.) If you have a mortgage, do you have the title for your home in your possession?
Insurance is compulsory in certain mortgages to protect the asset (read: the collateral backing up the note). They could care less about it once you've paid it off. You're also paying taxes for the use of the property, just like you would with a financed vehicle.
You can say "fail" all you want, but a mortgage is nothing more than renting money from a bank. Until the debt is paid, you don't own anything except equity in the home. Acting like people are "homeowners" when they put down 3.5%, or have interest-only loans, or any of the rest is completely false. Foreclosure is the bank seizing an collateral asset because a borrower couldn't afford their financial obligations.
Period.
Cheers,
Adam
Cloner commented the other night that this thread wasn't really about motos.
He was right.
Quote from: humorless dp on December 02, 2010, 05:53:28 PM
Cloner commented the other night that this thread wasn't really about motos.
He was right.
+1 ...
(http://nicedeb.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/simma_down_now_invitation-p1613321856029535302l537_400.jpg)
(http://rationalwiki.org/w/images/7/71/Internet_argument.jpg)
Quote from: ducatiz on December 02, 2010, 07:24:37 PM
(http://rationalwiki.org/w/images/7/71/Internet_argument.jpg)
[laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [beer]
Cheers,
Adam
Not arguing, just stating my opinion.
Why is it that when someone says something that you don't agree with it's an "INTERNET ARGUMENT" or they need to "SIMMER DOWN".
You guys make me laugh! [laugh] [roll]
who was arguing?
No idea, I just love that pic.
Quote from: DrDesmosedici on December 02, 2010, 05:49:00 PM
Interesting point of view. Answer me this:
1.) When you're paying a note on a car, do you pay the insurance and registration?
2.) If you have a mortgage, do you have the title for your home in your possession?
Insurance is compulsory in certain mortgages to protect the asset (read: the collateral backing up the note). They could care less about it once you've paid it off. You're also paying taxes for the use of the property, just like you would with a financed vehicle.
You can say "fail" all you want, but a mortgage is nothing more than renting money from a bank. Until the debt is paid, you don't own anything except equity in the home. Acting like people are "homeowners" when they put down 3.5%, or have interest-only loans, or any of the rest is completely false. Foreclosure is the bank seizing an collateral asset because a borrower couldn't afford their financial obligations.
Period.
Cheers,
Adam
The truth ^^.
For some it may indeed be the awful stark truth. But the truth nonetheless. Welcome to planet
reality (pun intended). Debt is not an asset.
For a while now I've really been questioning how wonderful an "investment" owning a home really is.
You pay the loan principal, plus a shitload of interest, insurance well above and beyond that of a renter, upkeep and maintenance, taxes, and so on.
Then, at the end of the day, you might get to enjoy it for a few years at a slightly reduced ding per month (post-loan, but still covering all the rest) before you die and whomever you left it to reaps the benefits.
:P
Yup. You dont own the home, it owns you. Even if the bank no longer does.
Quote from: Speedbag on December 03, 2010, 06:45:27 AM
For a while now I've really been questioning how wonderful an "investment" owning a home really is.
You pay the loan principal, plus a shitload of interest, insurance well above and beyond that of a renter, upkeep and maintenance, taxes, and so on.
Then, at the end of the day, you might get to enjoy it for a few years at a slightly reduced ding per month (post-loan, but still covering all the rest) before you die and whomever you left it to reaps the benefits.
:P
At today's property values, even though they are in the toilet from our perspective, it isn't a bad inheritance...
from my perspective at least.
My son may feel differently when I'm gone.
Quote from: Speedbag on December 03, 2010, 06:45:27 AM
For a while now I've really been questioning how wonderful an "investment" owning a home really is.
You pay the loan principal, plus a shitload of interest, insurance well above and beyond that of a renter, upkeep and maintenance, taxes, and so on.
Then, at the end of the day, you might get to enjoy it for a few years at a slightly reduced ding per month (post-loan, but still covering all the rest) before you die and whomever you left it to reaps the benefits.
:P
Rent: Pay monthly premium (rent per sq ft is almost always higher than buying), get maintenance, place to live. Move out, get nothing.
Buy: Pay monthly, pay your own maintenance, get up to 35% of your interest as a tax deduction, get place to live. Move out, get something.
Put it this way. Either way, you have to have a place to live. When you rent, you are paying a premium to have someone take care of your home, appliances, yard etc.
But when you buy and then sell the home, if you get ZERO profit, you walk away with only having paid the interest to live there and that is reduced by the amount of your deduction.
Of course, this assumes the cost of renting and buying is in parity. You should expect to pay a 10-20% premium per sq ft for renting over buying the SAME property. If you get a deal either way, it changes the calculus.
Generally though, renting is a bust. You get an abused property, most property managers do the minimum amount of maintenance legally necessary, no choice as to the look of the outside of the house, and no choice as to the state of the interior. With a rental, you're going to get whatever was on sale at Home Depot for the kitchen and bathroom and God-knows-what in your carpet.
I've owned three residences and all of them I renovated to my tastes.
When you add everything up, in most states and especially here in WI with fairly steep real estate taxes, home ownership is a break even business. This assumes average market conditions of a 1% or 2% annual increase in property value, not in a bubble or slump.
Quote from: ducatiz on December 03, 2010, 07:19:05 AM
Rent: Pay monthly premium (rent per sq ft is almost always higher than buying), get maintenance, place to live. Move out, get nothing.
Buy: Pay monthly, pay your own maintenance, get up to 35% of your interest as a tax deduction, get place to live. Move out, get something.
Put it this way. Either way, you have to have a place to live. When you rent, you are paying a premium to have someone take care of your home, appliances, yard etc.
But when you buy and then sell the home, if you get ZERO profit, you walk away with only having paid the interest to live there and that is reduced by the amount of your deduction.
Of course, this assumes the cost of renting and buying is in parity. You should expect to pay a 10-20% premium per sq ft for renting over buying the SAME property. If you get a deal either way, it changes the calculus.
Generally though, renting is a bust. You get an abused property, most property managers do the minimum amount of maintenance legally necessary, no choice as to the look of the outside of the house, and no choice as to the state of the interior. With a rental, you're going to get whatever was on sale at Home Depot for the kitchen and bathroom and God-knows-what in your carpet.
I've owned three residences and all of them I renovated to my tastes.
I've rented several places in school and while waiting on my job. After buying a home, and even being upside down on what I owe/what it's worth, and all the corners the builders cut, blah blah blah....
I wouldn't go back to renting unless it was absolutely necessary for the survival of my family.
Period.
So there ;D
Quote from: gregrnel on December 03, 2010, 07:48:57 AM
When you add everything up, in most states and especially here in WI with fairly steep real estate taxes, home ownership is a break even business. This assumes average market conditions of a 1% or 2% annual increase in property value, not in a bubble or slump.
it depends on how you want to live.
If you rent, you take what you get: don't like the carpet color? too bad. wood floors worn out? too bad. Old refrigerator? too bad. etc etc.
We re-did our kitchen.. custom zebrawood cabinets, quartz countertop, 18" square marble flooring, ran gas for cooktop and double oven -- and on and on.
In a year or so we are going to add another wing to the house. already got the architect and designer in. redoing the facade of the house so it will be brick/wood paneling in a mid-century modern style, adding a bedroom, bathroom and a walk-in master closet with an extra garage under.
renting, you can't do that, or if you do, you are throwing the money away.
hey so yeah back to the topic at hand.
Do I understand that they stopped paying because they're upside down on it?
I wish it worked that way for all of us.
I have bought and sold 6 houses in the last 25 years since coming to America.I rent a room now it costs me x amount per month. I actually like the idea of not owning. I dont pay any utility costs dont pay any taxes on it, no ins on it other than my renters ins and no maintainence costs. I come and go as I please with zero commitment. For me,this is a perfect situation. I live in a very nice home with a super guy and everything is extremely zen and nice.I also get a garden to pay in and that is a plus!
Plus this arrangement helps the guy I rent from pay the bills which keeps someone else in a home in these uncertain times.I wont ever hand have no intention of ever buying a home again. They are money pits which you never really own. If after it is paid off you fail to pay your property taxes for 3 years the state will take it from you. So really it begs the question ................do you really ever own. If you spend 30 years paying it off why then does the state have the power to take something from you that is not theirs to take? You dont own it they do. Just my opinion and I know that some of you will agree and some of you wont. Sorry about the threadjack.
Good points on property tax...
Around here, if you are over 65 or a disabled vet, you don't pay property tax.
I don't have a problem with prop tax ~in principle~ because (for example) you don't own the road in front of your home, but you use the hell out of it. The state has to maintain that. Plus, your property values are affected by things like how good the local schools are, etc, so I choose to look at it as maintenance on one's home.
That all being said, it has to be administered in a just manner. That story of that woman with 5 kids in idaho being evicted (and the boy coming out with a gun to protect their home) always kicks me. She was sick, they were destitute, but they had long paid for the house, they were just in arrears on the taxes. To kick them out was simply unjust.
Did you guys hear OCC is going to start selling Ducati's?!?
Maybe they'll get one of those Hypermotards I've been hearing rumors about.
Quote from: Speedbag on December 07, 2010, 02:10:38 PM
Maybe they'll get one of those Hypermotards I've been hearing rumors about.
I haven't seen it yet and I hate it already! [puke]
Quote from: The Architect on December 07, 2010, 02:26:58 PM
I haven't seen it yet and I hate it already! [puke]
It's too heavy and look how ugly that exhaust is that I would replace anyway!
It needs a dry clutch!
Anyone see the episode last night (not sure if it was a re-run or not) of Paul, Paulie and Mikey dissecting where everything went wrong?
Not really sure what the point of the episode was as I fell asleep before it finished. :-\
I watched.
Its like a train wreck
I can't stop looking
Quote from: Randimus Maximus on December 07, 2010, 07:05:05 PM
Anyone see the episode last night (not sure if it was a re-run or not) of Paul, Paulie and Mikey dissecting where everything went wrong?
Not really sure what the point of the episode was as I fell asleep before it finished. :-\
at what point did they realize their heads were up their own asses?
Quote from: Monsterlover on December 07, 2010, 07:07:23 PM
I watched.
Its like a train wreck
I can't stop looking
My wife made me watch it. She analyzed the whole father son relationship, etc.... She asked me if the show was always this good.
What?
I never thought she would watch that show.
Quote from: badgalbetty on December 06, 2010, 02:16:37 AM
I have bought and sold 6 houses in the last 25 years since coming to America.I rent a room now it costs me x amount per month. I actually like the idea of not owning. I dont pay any utility costs dont pay any taxes on it, no ins on it other than my renters ins and no maintainence costs. I come and go as I please with zero commitment. For me,this is a perfect situation. I live in a very nice home with a super guy and everything is extremely zen and nice.I also get a garden to pay in and that is a plus!
Plus this arrangement helps the guy I rent from pay the bills which keeps someone else in a home in these uncertain times.I wont ever hand have no intention of ever buying a home again. They are money pits which you never really own. If after it is paid off you fail to pay your property taxes for 3 years the state will take it from you. So really it begs the question ................do you really ever own. If you spend 30 years paying it off why then does the state have the power to take something from you that is not theirs to take? You dont own it they do. Just my opinion and I know that some of you will agree and some of you wont. Sorry about the threadjack.
Over the last few decades we Canadians and Americans have been hard sold the idea that if you don't buy property you're a fool paying someone elses mortgage by renting. Your comments regarding maintenance costs, property taxes, and other significant home owner expenses are spot on. The truth is, one could rent for a lifetime, invest money wisely and come out at retirement time in the same financial place, or better, than they would have buying a home as a long term investment. At retirement time you could actually realized those investments whereas many home owners will never realize their investment as they leave the home to their children, living in it till they pass or go into a home.
Certainly buying a home within your means is often an excellent investment, but it's not the only way to skin the 'building for retirement' cat........and as you mentioned, there is often simply much less stress attached to renting and not having to be responsible for the long term condition of the home.