Ducati Monster Forum

I might get the IMA triple put on while the forks are serviced.
Might as well replace the bearings?

Besides SpeedyMoto, are there any other interesting suppliers?
I heard about one called AllBalls, GoAllBalls or something like that....

SpeedyMotos are Chinese, if that matters to you. That's what I have anyway. Seem OK. You're near Sweden so can't you get some good ones from the fine bearing makers there?

Sweden? Is it SKF you're referring to?
[bang] To me, that's like buying Canadian....

Found All Balls, AllBallsracing.com, they have a kit for my bike at $ 47.

http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=34290.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=34290.0)

no probs with my speedymotos on my s2r at all.

only the 'tapered-upgrades' - the tapered replacements for bikes originally equipped with tapered bearings (the 888/851 style and SS style steering heads, including early monsters) are SKF in manufacture, the same as OEM.

Ok guys I'm not getting what the issue is with the Speedymotos for +02 Monsters regarding the grease seals provided in the upgrade kit, per Duck Stew's thread. I'm not understanding why the spacer is needed, etc. I have a kit right here and was planning on installing it, but not sure now. Clarification is needed. Lots of clarification.

the spacer just provides room between the seal and the bearing so it has mo' room fo' grease

Put the inner race/bearing into the outer race, and then put the seal up against the inner race.
I suspect it will have the seal jammed up against the outer race.

Like the pics shown in Stu's thread:
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=34290.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=34290.0)

Yeah but that kind of undermines the point of having a seal in the first place, correct? With that gap like that? Won't the grease come out? Still confused.

So you're saying that if the seal actually seals against the outer race as shown in my photos and Stew's, that this is a bad situation? I'm definitely missing something here.
(http://i413.photobucket.com/albums/pp211/doofwop/IMGP1237.jpg)
(http://i413.photobucket.com/albums/pp211/doofwop/IMGP1234.jpg)

The seal is meant to contact (and seal against) the bore in the steering head.

The SpeedyMoto bearing and seal parts I had, it would jam the seal *hard* against the bearing outer race.
Creating a good bit of drag, and likely killing the seal in short order.
Additionally, the bore/hole in the metal part of the seal was way larger diameter than the steering stem, so it wouldn't necessarily be centered.

it may wear the seal if it touches. it is supposed to be a base plate for the grease, i reckon

OK, the seal with mine touch the outer race as shown, but are not jammed against it by any means. Anyone have any contact with Speedymoto regarding the issue? Seems they would be aware of such a flaw in a product they were selling.

It's a matter of premature wear, if that.
My guess is that's why Stu made the spacer - to eliminate all doubts.
Maybe it's an issue - I don't know.

At this point it's between .....
SpeedyMoto triple, including bearings (uncertain ETA)
IMA triple with All Balls bearings
IMA triple with Stu's Bearings

Couple of points:

1:  the seal is meant to seal the grease into the steering stem of the frame and NOT against the outer race.  Because the seal contacted the outer race, I got the shims to allow the seal to keep dust/dirt out and grease in without dragging against the bearing race.  I felt that the seal would have caused undue drag against the outer race as it doesn't contact the outer race when used on a factory Ducati ball-bearing.

2:  Speedymoto's grease seal ID is larger than the steering stem ID which isnt an issue on the upper bearing, but on the lower with the pressed fit, could be an issue if the seal isn't centered before the bearing snugs down against the lower triple.

3:  price drop!!  I can provide these now for $100 including the OEM seals & spacers with the same high quality Koyo bearings...  ;D

most of the ST and M frames with the ball steering head bearings have a washer under the seal at the bottom (between seal and triple clamp).  if you fit that washer between the seal and bearing and use another at the top this solves the seal drag issue when using the taper rollers.

i just order the ducati ones as they're easy to get that way.  i also use ducati seals for the same reason - 93010041A i think.

its funny how some part numbers stick in your head like glue
44440034a/44440035a
22032083a/85250421a/85250241a, etc etc

This is the All Balls 22-1039 bearing kit for a Ducati Monster S2R800 (a.s.o.)

Is this right side up and the seal in the correct position? (lower bearing)
I tried the other way and the seal snaps in place, but then there is contact - slowing rotation a little bit.

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l394/stopintime/Bearings012.jpg)

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l394/stopintime/Bearings010.jpg)

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l394/stopintime/Bearings009.jpg)

Looks like the KML 32907, exactly the same as what Speedymoto sells. I have noticed the same rubbing when the seal is fitted in the proper orientation. I got an email response from Speedymoto when I enquired about the issue:

'The replacement Bearing for the newer Ducati's has always been a bit
weird so here's my take.

The original ball bearing races wear out quickly leaving your steering
feeling sticky and lumpy. Tapered bearing provide a greater amount of
surface area so they tend to last longer and offer a smoother steering
transition left to right.

The problem is the seal, these bikes are not really set up to run
tapered bearings and nobody offers a perfect bearing solution without a
little bit of compromise. The Seal in our kit rubs inner diameter of
steering head but it does break in.  Tapered bearings require a little
more adjustment to setup right you can't just torque them down to a
factory spec or they will feel very tight. Stews solution is to use a
ball bearing seal with a spacer which will keep the seal from rubbing
another viable solution is to just flip the seal upside down.

As far as quality goes our supplier is selling us KLM bearings which is
a Chinese company but these upper mid quality bearings from KLM are
reputable and we have had no issues at all with their quality or we
would not sell them. I understand the knee jerk reaction to Chinese
products but you will be hard pressed to find a bearing manufacture who
doesn't source from China (whether or not they claim it). There are more
expensive higher quality bearings but I don't think they offer much
advantage in this low friction low heat application.'

So what I take from all of this, is that I should stick with the factory ball bearings, since a tapered solution will involve 'compromise'. I bought these bearings initially because I thought they were an upgrade from the stock bearings, but I was mistaken apparently. My experience with standard bearings is yes, the outer races do get damaged but only if water somehow gets into them, and they are not kept greased and properly torqued(at least in the case of mountain bikes). So the best solution to me is to just maintain the original bearings. It's disappointing when you come to the conclusion that the stock item is actually the best item, especially when you already bought the aftermarket item that was supposed to be better. C'est la vie.

  

I had the same issue on the torque.
way to tight with stock torque. so we backed it off. it's super smooth, but i would have to tear it apart to see if there's any seal issue.

Most likely, I need to flip the bearing around. The picture shows it upside down (I assume).
When I do that, as mentioned, there is contact. There will also be contact against the steering head.

Maybe I'm way off, but I can't understand how a seal will seal if there is no contact.
My KML/All Balls kit seems to have intended contact between all three parts of the bearing, plus steering head.

If the seal is working well, there might not be a need for any other seal except against the steering head inner diameter.
I'm assuming that's what Stu is aiming at.

My kit is a pair of Koyo tapered roller bearings, spacers to keep the OEM seals off of the bearing race & the OEM seals.

My kit was designed as an alternative to te OE ball bearing that was 2nd to none.

'stopintime': Does the 'All Balls' kit have the correct seal ID, or is it loose like the SpeedyMoto kit?

The 33-1008 seal ID is 1 - 1.5 mm wider than the inner race, but is (hopefully) kept in place by the snap-in-place feature provided by the complex profile of the rubber.

Stu, what are the contact issues - properly greased, will the seal fail? It seems to me they are designed to contact to seal.

I don't know if th contact would cause a premature failure of the seal, but the OEM ball bearing races do not contact the OE seals, so I found a suitable spacer to correct that condition....

I spent the last 30min examining my KLM speedymoto bearings/seals and comparing them against the pics here.  Physically my parts look just like stopintimes.  The seal hole to accomodate the steering stem is 1.2mm larger diameter than the bearing ID, but the seal is "captive" on the tapered bearing for self-centering during installation.  When assembled and pressed together firmly with fingers, the seal is 0.45mm off the outer race along its entire circumference, as measured with a feeler gauge (no contact or drag on the race).  The seal has a double-lip that presumably contacts the steering head ID when installed.  Would this seal also work with the Koyo bearings?

BK

It should work as the bearing part #'s are the same: 32907.  That part number indicates the dimensions of the bearing so they would be interchangeable in fitment.

i thought the seal sealed against the inside of the frame tube.  the seal sits on top of the inner cone, so it's the first part fitted to the lower triple and the last part fitted under the adjusting nut at the top.

just fit a spacer between seal and bearing.  genuine part i use is 85211311A i think, i'll check later.

Yes, tube frame = steering head, at least by my loose terminology.  I like your first/last parts fitted description.  This S2R800 pic is not the greatest - seal is #5 on both ends.  You pros know the specifics, but I thought I would put the pic here for the benefit of others.

BK

(http://i56.tinypic.com/236tlf.jpg)

number 4 is the washer, 85211031A.  get an extra one, put them between seal and bearing.  you'll need a new seal too if your bearing set doesn't come with one, as you'll most likely damage the lower one getting the bearing off.

Hey guys,

So, at the end, which ball/tapered bearings should I purchase in order to upgrade or if I replace the triples?

I was thinking on purchashing the SM complete w/risers and an additional top to install clip ons, maybe also SM or LSL. This is the reason I ask this question.

UPDATE:

Factory set 50,000km
All Balls / Speedy kit with controversial seals 40,000km

I got the replaced upper seal and both outer races back today.

The lower seal was destroyed, but the rubber lips looked similar to the one in the photo - no damage to either of the three lips.

The affected areas were not rusty, but the lower third of one outer race is dark and not at all smooth - maybe a little dry - I don't know.

My new attempt is the same kit, but this time my mechanic added a factory washer between the lower seal and lower bearing. In stock size it would crush the inner lip, so he sanded it down to fit inside the inner lip. I really don't know if this extra washer helps, but in another couple of years I'll be back with another update ;)

(http://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l394/stopintime/bearings012_zps60a90425.jpg)

don't use the seals that come with the allballs, etc bearings.  the inner lips are what drag on the outer cones, making it hard to set the bearings as they drag unduly before the movement is gone.  use the genuine ducati seal 93010041B.  they're abour $10 each, and they don't rub on the cones if you use the genuine washer to space them. 

Thanks for that Brad, but it's too late for me, this time.
Ducati seals weren't available when I had to have the parts put back together.

There is a spacer in there now - it should take care of the ability to torque it down properly from day one - no?

Of course, I still have no spacer on the top.
Will checking and adjusting torque a couple of times in the near future help?

Bottom line, or what I make out all this:

Stay with the OEM bearings . .  ???

I haven't been able to prove to myself or anyone else that roller bearings are better than ball bearings, but I can't prove the opposite either. I'm only one rider and there can be a number of reasons why my rollers failed at 40 instead of xx km.

Roller bearings are what Ducati now supplies as replacement parts and their kit might be better, but then again AllBalls aren't amateurs...

I am just asking since, bike will be 7yrs old, but not that many kms ran . .  hi humidty, salty air . . . lots of rain . . . and also planning on getting a SM complete triple, now, also thinking about the IMA kit . . .

i wouldn't piss on the std ones if they were on fire.  i can see no funtional benefit to them at all.  the tapered rollers have a massive amount more contact area and when installed properly they seem to last and last.  i hav a m1000 customer who has had hers for 50k now and there's no sign of any notchiness at all.

50k from a std set is staggering.  in bikes with aluminium frames or bearing inserts - 916, mv, aprilia - they last quite a long time.  fitted to steel frames, they're crap.  we did lots at 10,000km  - st series and the cheap 748 were very bad.  at the first service we would reduce the torque to 10nm on the ducatis, and that seemed to make a real difference to how long they would last.  ducati specify 20nm, but often you'd retorque them to that after 1,000km and you'd reduce the tightness by 60 degrees or more!  mv specify hand tight plus 10 degrees, aprilia 40nm.  there was a 1098 service bulletin to take them to 30nm to stop a movement in them, but i don't know how they could be moving at 20 even.  i can't imagine why aprilia think 40nm is appropriate for a bearing with a small single point of contact, and i've seen high km aprilia with bearings so tight and stiff you can hardly turn the steering (with blissfully unaware riders).  i find i d.o mv due to corrosion it seems more than normal wear.

maybe i'm more sensitive too when i have a bike up on the bench and change them earlier than many would.