Ducati Monster Forum

i have had a handful of rider friends go down due to cold tire issues.  This is not in track.

We ride a lot on twisty roads.  All day type of riding.

Would tire warmer help I guess during the start of the ride in the morning?  or it is pretty much useless unless you are on track?

(just curious of it's practicality outside of track)

WELL....it might be helpful if you went straight out of your garage off the warmers into a canyon/twisties...but cool down time of a tire is amazingly quick off the warmers...showing up at your meet spot and sitting for 10 or so minutes waiting to gather people cools them down immensly...then of course your ride time in probably more sedate settings like whatever urban form of jungle you are navigating to the meet spot is doing probably only a bare minimum of keeping what is making contact with the road surface marginally warmer than it might have been otherwise while you are getting there...but the sidewalls or outer contact patch are not exactly going to be warm at all when it comes time to get down and boogie....not to mention heat cycling your tires like that is not condusive to good traction or life as it will quickly expire various aspects of your tires' abilities. 

no. [bacon]

all day twisty roads and cold tire mishaps doesn't really jive. unless theyre wrecking in the first 15-30 minutes of the ride  those tires should be warm enough.  at the track they say the tires are warm after 1 or 2 laps of lax riding.

it happen beginning of rides a few times and I was just curious about tire warmers in this type of scenarios and wanted to confirm that tire warmers are not a solution in this type of scenario.  Other than taking it easy beginning of a ride and warming up the tire by zig zaging left and right for a bit  (sadly i also know a guy who told me that got a ticket or a warning [don't remember details] for doing that ...kind of funny when you think about it)

NO!  Tire warmers aren't generally used by racers to gain bite in the first few laps, anyway.  With slicks, heat cycling is a grip killer, so we use tire warmers between sessions to keep the temperature elevated to eliminate heat cycling.  I don't mind going out for my first session of the day on cold tires.

A few hints for warming tires......

1)  Weaving side to side DOESN'T warm your tires.  It MIGHT clean off sand or dirt (though probably not), but it won't build heat.  Only deflecting the tires' carcasses builds heat.  Weaving just worries the cagers around you and makes you look like a poseur.  It works in cars because of the lateral forces generated when turning a car, but not for bikes.
2)  Acceleration and braking deflect a motorcycle tire's carcass.  If you want to warm a tire more quickly, just alternate between "on throttle" and "off throttle plus brakes."
3)  Take it easy for the first two laps (or maybe two to five miles of twisties at a spirited street pace).

That's my two cents,

Cloner
ABQ, NM
SMRI #250

Wow, I was way off then.  Thanks for the info. 

 ??? Ok, that's a new one. Sorry man but you are so wrong I can't let that kind of info go unchecked. The very reason that we use tire warmers on a racebike is to warm the tires up to be able to push hard on the first lap. It is what they were invented for, and why we use them. It is absolutely not to increase the life of a race tire. Sorry man but you should not be saying things like this if you do not know what you are talking about.

To the O.P., your street tires are not made the same as racetires. Putting warmers on your street tires and getting them hot, will make them slippery. Your tires are not made to operate at the same temp as a race tire.  
Both tires will be slippery until they get up their respective operating tempeatures, but the race tire's operating temp is much higher than the street tire. The street tire never gets to the same temp as a race tire that's in it's working temp, so whether you put it on a warmer, or do fast laps on a track...both of these situations will make the street tire slippery. In fact, I work with my students at trackdays to get them used to sliding around when they are on street rubber. Usually by mid day, they are going fast enough that they get their street tires up to track temps., and they start sliding around.

Using a race tire on the street is difficult because it's hard to get it up to, and maintain it's operating temp...make sense? You will not gain anything by doing that because your tires are not made to work that way. Check your pressures. When riding more aggressively, you can take some pressure out of your tires from the recommended settings. This will help. Also, how is the suspension on these bikes that are going down on public roads? How is the skill level of these riders? it sounds to me like these riders are getting in over their heads. Experienced riders realize that they need to warm up to speed slowly to not only get the tires up to temp, but get their head in it as well.
 [thumbsup]

When I raced bikes with slicks (back in the stone age....the only bike I raced last year ran on DOTs and tire warmers were both unnecessary and banned by rule), I'd typically do my first practice of the day on cold tires, take it easy for two or three laps (depending on the circuit), then hammer.  After the first session I'd use warmers between sessions for the remainder of the day to keep the tires close to temp.  I find keeping them warm all day keeps them from getting greasy, and have had several tire techs tell me eliminating heat cycling extends life (unless you're on a track where you're shagging a set daily, then I guess it doesn't matter as much).  I've never had the first track mile of any day be a race, so being able to hammer on the first lap has never been my first priority.  I wouldn't dispense advice without first hand knowledge.

Pirelli is obviously worried about heat cycling:  http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=40159 (http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?article=40159) as their newest slick is supposed to be "less sensitive to heat cycling".  I've seen similar claims by Michelin and Dunlop with newer tire models. 

But hey....don't take my word for it.....how about Chicken Hawk's word?  From the Chicken Hawk racing website:

Improves Tire Life - Heat Cycles: Keeping your tires "warm" (125-135 F) between practice sessions saves Heat Cycles (the # of times a tire gets hot and then cools) which age your tires (the tire goes "off" meaning the best grip is gone). Cold Cutting or Cold-Tearing: High-horsepower or heavier vehicles can tend to cold-tear tires when used aggressively when the tire is cold. These "cuts" or "graining" affect Tire Performance and Life. Heating the Tire up slowly with a Tire Warmer doesn't spend or use the active chemicals the engineers put in the tire to give it grip by "shock heating" out on the track.

I don't ride heavier vechicle (I prefer 250s that weigh less than I do), so I've rarely experienced tearing, but I think you get the idea.

As a relatively poor (read "grass-roots, old, unsponsored, working-out-of-my-own-pocket") racer, I always worry about tire life, as it is the greatest recurring operating expense for me, so I look at that first.  I haven't been around bikes or racing for too long (unless you consider nearly twenty five years on track too long, my first race was actually in 1987), so maybe I don't "know what I'm talking about" after all. 

I agree with the rest of your advice.

 [popcorn] [bacon]

I'm not sure why there is a dispute here.  The primary purpose of tire warmers for racers is to be able to hammer the bike out of the gate.  Some racers don't use them because they can adequately warm up their tires in the hot pits by accelerating/braking and then on the siting lap.  That said, tire warmers are purported to have an additional benefit--though it's not their primary purpose--of limiting the heat cycling of your tires.   Frankly, I've never noticed a difference in tire life with or without warmers, but I've never really paid that close of attention and I never had the type of warmers that you could just keep on super-super low all day long. 

I'm sure that some folks use warmers to try to stretch tire life and don't care about the first coupla laps.  That sounds like something a regular trackday rider might do.  But racers tend to use 'em to be able to get on it immediately once the flag drops (or the lights go, or whatever your starting procedure is).

honestly I, and i assume most racers, get rid of their used race tires long before the get to the point where you are risking them being fried.  its way to big of a risk for me to save little money, actually it might save me money by decreasing the probability of a crash due to s##t tires going off when i don't wnat them to.  bang; 2Cents from me. [bacon]

I always wait until I crash on shagged tires to determine if they are done.  But at least they're warm.   ;D

More important than any of the above....

Could you use a tire warmer to cook  [bacon] [bacon] [bacon] ?

cook everyone else on the race track.  woah slamdunk! [bacon]

OK......tire warmers are (or should I say were) used by THIS racer to extend tire life.  There.  Fixed.  As I said, when I ran slicks I'd go out for the first practice of the day on cold tires, the rest (including races) were on hot tires.  My primary thought was of tire life, but even if the only benefit was quicker warmup that'd be OK.  I would still have used them.  "Back in the day" heat cycling was a severely limiting factor in the life of a set of slicks.  It was not uncommon in the late '80s and early '90s to have a set of slicks that looked half used, but that wouldn't grip due to heat cycling.  Some bluish discoloration usually accompanied this lack of grip, supposedly due to oils in the rubber evaporating or some such.

I've never used slicks or tire warmers for track days, as I rarely go "all out" for them.  Too many people at wildly varied experience and speed levels for my comfort.  I typically use one of my street bikes for track days, anyway.

Now that I'm old and fat and grey, I just race old junk on DOTs.  Tire warmers aren't allowed in SMRI's vintage classes so I no longer even own a set.  If I decide to go back to modern (read "expensive") racing, I'll buy another set.  Hells bells, some of the folks in the Ultralightweight class in which I participate used only one set of tires for the whole season last year.  Maybe I'm just out of touch.

I leave this topic to those of you who think you're faster. (and probably are)

BTW, I've never used tire warmers to make [bacon], but you can heat a can of vienna sausages with 'em.   ;D