I'd kinda like to compare notes.
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=45059.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=45059.0)
They look like red Dyna Coils. Are they any different?
Maybe Chris brought the design in-house?
I have orderd some for a friend's bike I'm working on. I'll get feedback once they have been tested.
I'm confident that they will be good quality and they are a lower price than the Dynas. They are a design much more compact than the Dyna coils I got from Chris previously. They appear to bolt on directly rather than through a bracket kit and will fit better in the confined area behind the air box.
They are what Chris sells now and I get the impression he sourced them himself to get a quality and price outcome he was happy with.
Quote from: nomadwarmachine on January 12, 2011, 02:33:18 PM
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=45059.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=45059.0)
Not belts, coils.
Quote from: YellowDuck on January 12, 2011, 02:33:27 PM
They look like red Dyna Coils. Are they any different?
Maybe Chris brought the design in-house?
Yeah they do. Pretty sure he's found an overseas (not that that's a bad thing) manufacture to supply them per his specs.
Quote from: koko64 on January 12, 2011, 02:55:01 PM
I have ordered some for a friend's bike I'm working on. I'll get feedback once they have been tested.
Cool.
Did not see those before. Look very nice. I am curious to hear what people think.
i will be ordering these in february i believe for a 900 in the garage. and one of them there fancy shorai batteries.
Just fitted some to a '98 M900S.
The owner is very pleased with how much smoother and crisper the bike runs at lower revs. The idle is crisper and more even.
I was impressed with how they bolt straight onto the stock coil posts, and how compact and light they are compared to Dyna coils for similar performance.
I just installed some, easiest mod I've done by far. Sadly, no notes on performance yet as the bike is in a million pieces for a variety of winter projects.
I just installed a set on my '95 M-900. I expected a big difference, as the coil and wires that were replaced had over 80k miles on them, and there was. Throttle response is much quicker, the bike felt like I was kicking it in the butt when I opened the throttle. Easy install, the only difference in the coils from stock is the new ones have the electrical connectors on the opposite side of the coil.
George
Well crap. I must have drawn the short straw 'cause they make my bike run like poo.
Reckon I'll need to call Chris and see what he thinks.
Got wires crossed?
Nope.
Quote from: Staggerlee on January 25, 2011, 07:39:21 PM
Well crap. I must have drawn the short straw 'cause they make my bike run like poo.
Please expain?
Have you checked and re-checked your wiring, usually its something you moved or disconnected/reconnected, though component failure does happen every now and then its usually rare.
I am very interested in how you go, I have 80,000 kays up on my bike and it needs a freshen up.
Mmick
Quote from: monstermick58 on January 25, 2011, 11:10:25 PM
Have you checked and re-checked your wiring, usually its something you moved or disconnected/reconnected, though component failure does happen every now and then its usually rare.
Yeah, they're hooked up correctly. When they're installed, the bike runs great for about 10 minutes, then starts randomly dropping cylinders at idle. Swap out to the old coils and the problem goes away completely.
I've been doing this long enough that I agree with you; it's rare that a brand new component is NFG straight from the box, but in this case all signs are pointing to yes.
Interesting. I kinda figured the coils are relatively bullet proof / fool proof.
Which bike do you have? I'd be interested to know if its an issue related to heat with the igniters or the coils...
Yeah, I'm thinking it's a heat/resistance issue as well, since it runs fine before things get to temp. I have checked the primary & secondary fields (both cold & hot), and there's no appreciable change in resistance though, which is puzzling.
It's a 2000 M900. Looks like I'm the only fuelie guy to try 'em so far.
So no igniters on that bike
I thought that those coils were specifically for carbed Monsters.
I wonder if they are in the correct Ohms range for your model's ignition requirements.
EDIT: I checked the Cal Cycle site and they should be ok for a 2000 ie. It's the green writing above the product listing under the parts guide in the Ignition section. Worth double checking.
any indication where they are made or who makes them?
I talked to Chris today and he's as baffled as I am. He's sending another set to me riki tik to see if maybe I just ended up with a bum pair.
Quote from: koko64 on January 26, 2011, 03:47:58 PM
I wonder if they are in the correct Ohms range for your model's ignition requirements.
Yeah, we talked about that. He has a customer with an MH900 who's using the coils with no complaints; same 1.5 ECU that I have, so that
should rule out any compatibility issues.
For shits & giggles, I ohm'd out my stock coils against the CA coils just to see:
Stock Primary: 5.2 & 5.2
Stock Secondary: 18.42 & 19.17
CA Primary: 5.8 & 5.9
CA Secondary: 20.89 & 20.54
The secondary windings on each were measured through the 5k ohm resistor cap.
I'll update after I receive the replacement coils; should have 'em in hand by this weekend.
Quote from: Staggerlee on January 25, 2011, 07:39:21 PM
Well crap. I must have drawn the short straw 'cause they make my bike run like poo. Reckon I'll need to call Chris and see what he thinks.
Yeah... :-\ And big compliments to your troubleshooting; thanks for calling in. Wasn't aware there was a thread.
Quote from: Staggerlee on January 26, 2011, 08:34:02 AM
Yeah, I'm thinking it's a heat/resistance issue as well, since it runs fine before things get to temp. I have checked the primary & secondary fields (both cold & hot), and there's no appreciable change in resistance though, which is puzzling.
It's a 2000 M900. Looks like I'm the only fuelie guy to try 'em so far.
The manufacturer sent us a pair of sample coils once we worked out the specs and Candice was the first to try them on her 2003 M620 -- same feedback that Zina had when we tested the Dyna coils on her `95 900ss/cr back in `98. Improved smoothness at low rpm / opening throttle conditions and maybe improved starting.
Quote from: ducatiz on January 26, 2011, 04:19:12 PM
any indication where they are made or who makes them?
These are made to our specs by a company in China. We scouted around and the best results come from there. It works well when I ask for the best product modern technology can manufacture, rather than worry about price. We probably pay 2 or 3 times what they are as provided to Ducati.
Quote from: Staggerlee on January 13, 2011, 07:16:12 AM
Pretty sure he's found an overseas (not that that's a bad thing) manufacture to supply them per his specs.
Yes... it kind of saddens me that I consider quality of manufactured goods in the US to be second or third rate. :-\ :-[ I was going to get the spark plug cables from the LA region (which is where I start all of my buying adventures) and then I got a sample from a Chinese company that totally blew away the US wires. Almost twice as many strands of the conductor itself (19 vs 10), plus the silicon jacket is so much better on the imported wires.
In the next couple months, I'm going to set up a test bench so I can attempt to quantify actual changes with coils, wires, etc. I got an oscilloscope and have enough parts laying around that I've got what I need to put it together. Your magical mystery coils are going to be a part of that!
:) Chris
Thanks!
So I have the good ol' Dynas, any reason to switch over other than the fact that it fits without a bracket? I like the fit just fine, and am considering going to a DIY igniter bracket holder as I have no airbox.
Quote from: 671M900 on January 27, 2011, 09:17:12 PM
So I have the good ol' Dynas, any reason to switch over other than the fact that it fits without a bracket?
Nope. I consider them to be equivalent as far as the rider's experience is concerned. We should have switched to our own years ago, but it was how they changed their design a few times, it got to where we weren't able to cut the long ends off anymore. I'm actually quite happy that we do not need to make the adapter brackets and build hardware kits! That added an epic amount of work to selling those. Everyone here dreaded when we had to do another run of coils kits...
:) Chris
Install video from Chris: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=69439622253D5B8D (http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=69439622253D5B8D)
Quote from: CannedIce on January 31, 2011, 06:27:25 PM
Install video from Chris: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=69439622253D5B8D (http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=69439622253D5B8D)
I LOOOVE how when it zooms in on the actual install of the cable to the coil, the camera keeps focusing on the monster in the background, haha....
Quote from: Staggerlee on January 26, 2011, 07:24:50 PM
For shits & giggles, I ohm'd out my stock coils against the CA coils just to see:
Stock Primary: 5.2 & 5.2
Stock Secondary: 18.42 & 19.17
CA Primary: 5.8 & 5.9
CA Secondary: 20.89 & 20.54
I tried this with the Dynas that I got from Chris that are on my 900SS -- only checked the primary though. I got a straight 5.0 on both of them.
I wonder why the new CA model has a much higher impedance? Usually people go lower to get a bigger spark. Some folks were even putting the 3Ohm models on their older bikes with decent result.
Or are these defective put putting in too much resistance?
Quote from: ducatiz on January 31, 2011, 11:09:18 PM
I tried this with the Dynas that I got from Chris that are on my 900SS -- only checked the primary though. I got a straight 5.0 on both of them.
I wonder why the new CA model has a much higher impedance? Usually people go lower to get a bigger spark. Some folks were even putting the 3Ohm models on their older bikes with decent result.
Or are these defective put putting in too much resistance?
Primary impedance needs to be compatible with your ignition modules. Output voltage is dependent the amount of turns in the winding. My guess is one of Staggerlee's coils has a winding that is opening or shorting when temperature builds.
Well Shit.
First off though; huge thanks to Chris & Candice. I had a pair of replacement coils in hand two days after speaking with Chris.
However, it would appear that my Monster is a high maintenance little pregnant dog. There is clearly nothing wrong with the coils, as this new pair does the exact same thing.
Full disclosure:
Brand new DCPR8E's gapped at .036
Brand new NGK 8515 plug wires w/ 5Ω resistor caps
Power & ground to each coil is correct (spade terminals are different sizes, just like OEM)
Full charge on battery
Full bag of gas
etc
etc
etc
I checked the new ones with a multimeter before installation; I didn't write down the values but it was real close to the first pair.
It ran like a striped-ass ape for about two blocks, then wouldn't idle. I limped it back into the garage and shot this video immediately after dismount:
M900 Cough Cough Sputter Cough (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Mwous5IneU#normal)
I tossed the OEM coils back on, and went for a two hour ride with nary a hiccup.
Now what?
Man, that's really weird. I wish we were able to get hands on your bike. ???
The primary resistance IS important, but the ohm value in and of itself is not a determining factor in their performance. What a lot of folks didn't say about the Dyna 3Ω coils we sold is that they taxed the charging system. Each coils was running 4A or more. What clued me in was when I would hear people talk about how an electrex regulator + the Dyna 3Ω would really make their bike wake up. I'm pretty sure the higher current of a 3Ω primary is pushing the limit on the carb'd Ducatis. That's why we switched to the black 5Ω model.
To keep the charging system safe, I originally spec'd these to be 4.6 ~ 5.0Ω. The secondary usually ends up 15kΩ or a little more, so 17~20kΩ is "normal". We have been checking primary resistance, but that was more of a pass/fail "0, good, ∞" test, not really a how close are they to 5Ω situation. This will get revisited and definitely be on my mind going forward.
How about a refund for these? And maybe we can find other 2000~2001 M900ie owners to try them (for free)? What really makes this odd is that slightly higher resistance shouldn't affect the output drivers in the 1.5 computer at all. The reason 0.3Ω and 0.5Ω and 1.0Ω primaries exist are so that the ignition driver can have a weaker drive on the output... a parallel is like USB vs RS232 serial communication on a computer. USB is lower voltage lower current TTL logic, while RS232 is higher voltage and more current.
Which spark plugs are you using?
Just for the hell of it try reducing the spark plug gap to the factory recommended .024-.028" gap.
Quote from: Staggerlee on February 01, 2011, 12:25:06 PM
Well Shit.
First off though; huge thanks to Chris & Candice. I had a pair of replacement coils in hand two days after speaking with Chris.
However, it would appear that my Monster is a high maintenance little pregnant dog. There is clearly nothing wrong with the coils, as this new pair does the exact same thing.
Full disclosure:
Brand new DCPR8E's gapped at .036
Brand new NGK 8515 plug wires w/ 5Ω resistor caps
Power & ground to each coil is correct (spade terminals are different sizes, just like OEM)
Full charge on battery
Full bag of gas
etc
etc
etc
I checked the new ones with a multimeter before installation; I didn't write down the values but it was real close to the first pair.
It ran like a striped-ass ape for about two blocks, then wouldn't idle. I limped it back into the garage and shot this video immediately after dismount:
M900 Cough Cough Sputter Cough (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Mwous5IneU#normal)
I tossed the OEM coils back on, and went for a two hour ride with nary a hiccup.
Now what?
I'm running the black Dynas from Chris and my friend is running the new "Kelly" coils. Both are carbed Monsters (95 and 98) with FCR41s. These two bikes run the standard igniters. They both start and run beautifully. Another friend is running the green Dynas on a '92 Superlight with FCR 41s but his igniters died and he runs an Ignitech set up. All three bikes use the NGK DCPR8EIX iridium plugs and run strong.
If there is a compatibility issue with some FI bikes, Chris will sort it.
Lt Snyder's book (good book) mentions issues with running certain types of plug/ignition leads which he claims cause some electrical anomalies. The comment in his book was a little cryptic so I'm wondering if anyone had specific knowledge about the issue. Could this be a factor?
Quote from: howie on February 01, 2011, 08:44:43 PM
Just for the hell of it try reducing the spark plug gap to the factory recommended .024-.028" gap.
Ya know; I'd really like to say I tried that already, but I've had them on & off & back on again, I don't honestly remember. I'll give it a shot.
Quote from: chris on February 01, 2011, 02:52:23 PM
Which spark plugs are you using?
DCPR8E's that I'm going to re-gap to factory spec. Stay tuned.
Perhaps you've got a bad spark plug wire or cap... I'm assuming that you didn't keep the same wires between new and old coils.
Quote from: Speeddog on February 02, 2011, 09:58:02 AM
Perhaps you've got a bad spark plug wire or cap... I'm assuming that you didn't keep the same wires between new and old coils.
I'm pretty sure I can rule that out. I've tried it with the wires & caps that are included in the kit, stock wires/caps & finally the NGK 8515 wires/caps and the issue is present in all configurations.
Quote from: chris on February 01, 2011, 02:52:23 PM
...And maybe we can find other 2000~2001 M900ie owners to try them (for free)?...
I have a 2000 M900ie with the stock coils/wires/caps and I would be willing to give these coils a try if you are looking for test bikes.
The bike currently runs great as is!
The only caveat is the amount of snow on the ground so I could not take them for a test ride for another month.
Good luck with getting this resolved!
Quote from: Staggerlee on February 01, 2011, 11:14:50 PM
Ya know; I'd really like to say I tried that already, but I've had them on & off & back on again, I don't honestly remember. I'll give it a shot.
DCPR8E's that I'm going to re-gap to factory spec. Stay tuned.
Ah, ok. I was wondering because there is theory that non-resistor plugs (and wires) can cause RFI / EMI to the electrical system. In reality, it is a car stereo's audio circuits that are affected by this and I have yet to see anything point to EMI beyond that. Another far out there thing to try would be to get some cheap-o automotive supression-core wires. The last time I bought them, I got the cheapest 4 cylinder car "set" I could find and was under $10. I'm thinking/ assuming/ believing that they would screw into the coils the same way. In chasing down this rabbit hole, my goal would be to fully suppress any concept of EMI caused by the transmission lines... Thanks again SO much for your patience! [drink]
Quote from: Speeddog on February 02, 2011, 09:58:02 AM
Perhaps you've got a bad spark plug wire or cap... I'm assuming that you didn't keep the same wires between new and old coils.
Yeah we went over that on the phone. I compliment Staggerlee's troubleshooting. He had already done everything I was asking him to do before we talked on the phone. Very thorough... he tried the wires and caps we supplied and then my wires, stock plug caps. Finally the NGK 8515, which I agree is a solid product without question.
Quote from: Blue on February 02, 2011, 11:10:03 AM
I have a 2000 M900ie with the stock coils/wires/caps and I would be willing to give these coils a try if you are looking for test bikes.
The bike currently runs great as is!
The only caveat is the amount of snow on the ground so I could not take them for a test ride for another month.
Good luck with getting this resolved!
Thank you sir! [thumbsup] Please
email Candice (orders@ca-cycleworks.com) and let her know. We'll all keep in touch. My preference is that the actual coils that were on Staggerlee's bike and misbehaving went on your bike to see if they repeat ... with the hope they straighten up and behave for your bike. Oh and snow? Wow, please keep warm and stay safe. It's kind of a good thing I keep too busy to watch news... the little bits I get are plenty scary. :-[ Snow across the US, an already flooded Australia gets a CAT 5 hurricane?! Yuck... I grew up in Florida's hurricane alley, the panhandle area, and CAT 3 storms are no joke. I've had 4s but never seen a 5.
Quote from: koko64 on February 01, 2011, 10:54:16 PMIf there is a compatibility issue with some FI bikes, Chris will sort it.
Lt Snyder's book (good book) mentions issues with running certain types of plug/ignition leads which he claims cause some electrical anomalies. The comment in his book was a little cryptic so I'm wondering if anyone had specific knowledge about the issue. Could this be a factor?
Thanks for your vote of confidence and also for your positive input. IMHO, LT Snyder was basically reminding us all about the general industry assumption of EMI/RFI. Part of it, too, is that in the early 90s, there was a lot of snake-oil in the ignition arena. Like the splitfire plugs and Nology wires. Motorcycle Consumer News (under LT's stewardship at the time??) did controlled testing of various product and proved that when the rubber meets the road, the best setup is standard components with non-resistor plugs, which consistently added 1-2 hp.
The suck of it that ANY competent technician can set up a very believable test to prove any single product is BAD. Especially if marketing is the motivation. The difficulty is establishing that products are great and will stand the test of time. When I make stuff (or have stuff made for me), I always ask for the best of industry practices at every step of the way. If no compromises are made, there will be no questions or lingering doubt.
Quote from: koko64 on February 01, 2011, 10:54:16 PMand my friend is running the new "Kelly" coils
[laugh] [laugh] OMG, you got me on that one!
Thanks,
Chris
Quote from: chris on February 02, 2011, 01:33:03 PM
Ah, ok. I was wondering because there is theory that non-resistor plugs (and wires) can cause RFI / EMI to the electrical system. In reality, it is a car stereo's audio circuits that are affected by this and I have yet to see anything point to EMI beyond that. Another far out there thing to try would be to get some cheap-o automotive supression-core wires. The last time I bought them, I got the cheapest 4 cylinder car "set" I could find and was under $10. I'm thinking/ assuming/ believing that they would screw into the coils the same way. In chasing down this rabbit hole, my goal would be to fully suppress any concept of EMI caused by the transmission lines... Thanks again SO much for your patience! [drink]
Yeah, that thought occurred to me as well. But, the factory wires/caps are nothing special; certainly no better than the NGK 8515's why would this be an issue now? Will a higher output coil generate more RFI than a resistor spark plug & cap can suppress? I think I can pick up some bulk suppression core wire at my local speed shop; I'll give it a whirl.
Quote from: howie on February 01, 2011, 08:44:43 PM
Just for the hell of it try reducing the spark plug gap to the factory recommended .024-.028" gap.
I re-gapped to .024 and there was an immediate improvement, but still not as solid of an idle as with the stock coils. I opened them up a little further to .028 which had no effect. I'm thinking about going even narrower than min spec just to see what happens.
Quote from: Staggerlee on February 02, 2011, 09:41:36 PM
Yeah, that thought occurred to me as well. But, the factory wires/caps are nothing special; certainly no better than the NGK 8515's why would this be an issue now? Will a higher output coil generate more RFI than a resistor spark plug & cap can suppress? I think I can pick up some bulk suppression core wire at my local speed shop; I'll give it a whirl.
I re-gapped to .024 and there was an immediate improvement, but still not as solid of an idle as with the stock coils. I opened them up a little further to .028 which had no effect. I'm thinking about going even narrower than min spec just to see what happens.
No point in going smaller than .024. Generally speaking, opening the gap helps the bike idle, gap too wide causes high speed misfire. Stock gap is a compromise between the two. Cheap suppression core wire is an interesting experiment, though 5K resistance should be more than enough. Do keep in mind the wire will not be happy with the screw in connectors.
Quote from: howie on February 03, 2011, 05:14:43 AM
No point in going smaller than .024. Generally speaking, opening the gap helps the bike idle, gap too wide causes high speed misfire. Stock gap is a compromise between the two.
Noted.
Quote from: howie on February 03, 2011, 05:14:43 AM
Cheap suppression core wire is an interesting experiment, though 5K resistance should be more than enough. Do keep in mind the wire will not be happy with the screw in connectors.
Yeah, I'm a little perplexed as to how I'm going to deal with that. It looks like the aftermarket suppression core wires are meant to be used with the terminal lug installed on the plugs, which is easy enough. Dunno how I can expect to get a solid connection at the coils.
Quote from: Staggerlee on February 03, 2011, 07:49:07 AMYeah, I'm a little perplexed as to how I'm going to deal with that. It looks like the aftermarket suppression core wires are meant to be used with the terminal lug installed on the plugs, which is easy enough. Dunno how I can expect to get a solid connection at the coils.
I was looking at it ... it seems if you do the same thing as the stranded wire, the screw will bite into the middle of all that mess and get a good connection. I was thinking this while replacing the coil->distributor wire on my forklift... We had a left over wire from the old coil sets... so under the grotesque "hood" is this lone awesome red racing cable.
The theory behind suppressor core wires is pretty cool, too. It is considered fact that electrons flow on the surface of conductors... which is why fine stranded large cables can handle lots of current and not get too hot. Well the suppressor core wires are exceptionally thin wire spiral wound around the filament core.
;D Chris
OK then. I swung by the friendly O'Reilly's on the way home tonight and picked up a pair of generic 7mm
suppression core automotive replacement wires; OmniSpark is the brand.
(http://images.oreillyauto.com/parts/img/medium/oms/7c3a126.jpg)
I also threw in another fresh set of DCPR8E's at .024 and kept the terminal stud in place. Trimmed off the long boot and screwed the wire into the coil; it's actually a very solid fit - almost feels more secure than the stranded core NGK's.
Initial results are positive; ran it around for an hour or so, no misfires at all. This may have licked it. Damn shame that my secksy new NGK wires are NFG, but I guess them's the breaks. I'll run like this for a few days and post results.
Quote from: Staggerlee on February 03, 2011, 07:56:59 PM
OK then. I swung by the friendly O'Reilly's on the way home tonight and picked up a pair of generic 7mm
suppression core automotive replacement wires; OmniSpark is the brand.
(http://images.oreillyauto.com/parts/img/medium/oms/7c3a126.jpg)
Do they have those wires in carbon fibre??
[evil]
Carbon Fibre "effect". Same thing, right?
Quote from: Staggerlee on February 04, 2011, 07:59:35 AM
Carbon Fibre "effect". Same thing, right?
if the effect is that it lightens your wallet, yes.. [laugh]
Quote from: ducatiz on February 04, 2011, 09:37:58 AM
if the effect is that it lightens your wallet, yes.. [laugh]
Yah, like the Monster doesn't do enough of that already.
Quote from: Staggerlee on February 03, 2011, 07:56:59 PM
OK then. I swung by the friendly O'Reilly's on the way home tonight and picked up a pair of generic 7mm
suppression core automotive replacement wires ... I also threw in another fresh set of DCPR8E's at .024 and kept the terminal stud in place. Trimmed off the long boot and screwed the wire into the coil; it's actually a very solid fit - almost feels more secure than the stranded core NGK's.
Initial results are positive; ran it around for an hour or so, no misfires at all. This may have licked it. Damn shame that my secksy new NGK wires are NFG, but I guess them's the breaks. I'll run like this for a few days and post results.
Awesome! Wow, I doubted this would work, but I'll gladly be proven wrong. ;) This is really interesting.
Its been a while from the last post, where are we at?
Mmick
Any update? This is relevant to my interests!
I believe the OP started experiencing similar problems with the OEM coils so this has kinda reached a dead end for now.