The next part of wiring up my aftermarket gauges is to wire up the turn signal relay. It seems pretty straight forward but I merely dabble in electrical and would like a more experienced eye to review my work thus far.
Any help is appreciated. The only thing I see as an issue is if the dash LED (lamp on the upper right) burns out the turns won't work, so I'll probably run that parallel instead of serial and send it to a discrete ground.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v432/theartfuldubber/Trailtech/TurnSchematic-1.jpg)
Ignore that one for a minute, just realized two problems with it. Stay tuned.
Quote from: Artful on January 12, 2011, 02:58:11 PM
Ignore that one for a minute, just realized two problems with it. Stay tuned.
Thanks...
I thought I forgot everything I ever knew about electrons. ;D
Quote from: humorless dp on January 12, 2011, 03:05:36 PM
Thanks...
I thought I forgot everything I ever knew about electrons. ;D
Lol yeah, too late in the day to try and draw these things... I make signs. Really good signs. Don't let me rewire your house.
Refresh your browser, I relinked to a revised one. I still don't promise it's even close to right, but humor me. Shit... humorless... I'm screwed.
I don't see much different.
What is to stop all 4 bulbs from lighting at the same time?
Quote from: humorless dp on January 12, 2011, 03:20:21 PM
I don't see much different.
What is to stop all 4 bulbs from lighting at the same time?
Photobucket screwed up, I relinked it with a new name. With the original one, nothing was stopping it, would have been disco fever.
The only thing I'm not certain of is feeding the switch through the indicator.
Not only will the turn signals not work if the bulb is out...I don't think you'll get adequate voltage to the switch because the filament acts like a resistor.
flasher relays goes between the switch and the flashers as well, right? and yeah that indicator lamp should be in parallel to the circuit after the fuse
Quote from: ahks on January 12, 2011, 03:55:18 PM
flasher relays goes between the switch and the flashers as well, right? and yeah that indicator lamp should be in parallel to the circuit after the fuse
The factory feeds the switch through the relay. I think that will work OK.
If you just wire the indicator in parallel I think you have it.
All will work fine as it is, with the following changes:
1) power your turn indicator from the output of your flasher relay and then send it to it's own ground.
2) you mention an LED for the flasher indicator. Unless you're powering a factory LED, you will have to compensate for the voltage difference between the 12V bike & the 3V LED (IIRC they're 3V...) ((factory LED's have boards to change voltage already...))
That should do it!
Just remembered, LED's are 5V DC and not 3...
Add to this: If your indicator light burns out your indicators will stop working.
Here's what I did. It works great:
(http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj19/DrunkenMonkey_bucket/indicator.jpg)
Basically you tap into the + wires for both indicators (left and right sides) and wire in a diode before connecting the "tap" into the + lead for your indicator LED.
Then just wire the - on the LED into ground.
The diodes keep the current from flowing backwards and lighting up the indicators on the opposite side. A diode only lets current flow in one direction (the direction of the arrow, or the band on the actual diode) and are rated up to a certain voltage. Radio shack carries 24v ones which should be plenty good for what you're doing.
The drawing is crap, but what do you want for 5 minutes work in Office ;D
Quote from: humorless dp on January 12, 2011, 04:05:45 PMThe factory feeds the switch through the relay. I think that will work OK.
If you just wire the indicator in parallel I think you have it.
Duh... cause the circuit for the flasher wouldn't be completed, triggering the relay, until the switch was turned on. But yeah the indicator lamp would need to be in parallel to the relay or it would flash too... right? 2 years of vocational electronics. guess i'm a bit rusty lol
Quote from: ahks on January 12, 2011, 08:19:20 PM
Duh... cause the circuit for the flasher wouldn't be completed, triggering the relay, until the switch was turned on. But yeah the indicator lamp would need to be in parallel to the relay or it would flash too... right? 2 years of vocational electronics. guess i'm a bit rusty lol
The indicator is supposed to flash. ;)
And it will in parallel or series.
Time to hit the books. :P
/facepalm
and ride more apparently... or i'd remember that the dash indicator blinks with the turn signals. I think I'll just leave this thread alone now as it's showing my brain has melted too much in the decade since high school [laugh]
Ok, so if I wire the indicator LED in parallel and ground it where it is now, wouldn't it blink constantly?
Also, there is one slight dilemma I've discovered looking at the factory wiring schematic. I'm connecting the entire dash through a harness (or at least trying to) into the factory dash wiring. That's all well and good except that the neutral pole on the signal switch goes straight to ground, not to the dash. I obviously COULD find it, snip it and patch into my harness from there, but can anyone think of a way to run this circuit differently that would allow me to not have to patch into the factory wiring?
Anyway to upload a PDF? I'll take a screen shot of the factory wiring.
What do you mean 'neutral pole'?
Are you saying they ground everything through the switch and you need a ground at the dash?
Quote from: humorless dp on January 13, 2011, 05:53:16 AM
What do you mean 'neutral pole'?
Are you saying they ground everything through the switch and you need a ground at the dash?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v432/theartfuldubber/Trailtech/FactoryTurnSimple.jpg)
There is the factory wiring. The center pole of the switch never goes to the dash other than through the ground circuit which I can't feed a relay into...
What if you run the relay ground through the switch instead of power?
My apologies... not following you. The relay ground would still have to get to that center pole outside the harness.
Quote from: Artful on January 13, 2011, 06:45:14 AM
My apologies... not following you. The relay ground would still have to get to that center pole outside the harness.
No apology necessary. You have the advantage of having a complete wiring diagram.
If the off position of the switch is grounded and goes to the dash why does it have to go outside the harness?
Are you trying to use the relay in the original cluster?
Pin 22 is the ground for the dash, which goes into the chassis ground circuit. So if I run the relay negative wire into that pin I run power directly into the ground circuit as it is currently sketched out. That's how I'm reading it at least.
The reason I'm trying to keep everything in the harness is that I'm doing my best to keep the factory wiring unmolested. First and foremost just to see if I can do it because it would be a clean solution, and secondly to prevent much damage to resale if I ever get stupid and sell the bike. If need be, I can always hack the wire coming off the center pole of the switch and go with the circuit as drawn, but I'm trying to see if there is another way if possible. Not much more than a mental exercise and practice with this stuff.
Does the off position of the switch run to that same pin?
If I'm reading the diagram correctly in Reply #18 and understanding the operation of the switch, then the "off position" is just open switch. Left position grounds the left circuit through the switch, right position grounds the right, center position, no flow.
Eh screw it, I'm going to patch into the wire. No reason to beat my head against the wall if there is a simple and obvious solution.
Next question then... anyone know where the switch harness is on the bike? I can obviously trace it when I get home but if someone knows I can start noodling where to route the wire.
Does the relay you want to use have a ground?
If so, you should be able to feed power to the relay through any live switched pin from the factory connector and connect the ground from the relay to pin 22 and it should work.
That's the way I see it anyway.
Pin 22 goes to common ground, not solely the switch though, am I wrong in thinking that would only power the relay and the indicator while feeding power into the ground circuit? The relay I'm using is a simple two lead, power in, power out.
I may have oversimplified the factory schematic, the wire running between the switch center and Pin 22 is the ground circuit for a number of components.
I would be pretty thrilled if it was that easy though. That was where my brain was at first until I looked at the factory wiring.
Quote from: Artful on January 13, 2011, 08:29:02 AM
Pin 22 goes to common ground, not solely the switch though, am I wrong in thinking that would only power the relay and the indicator while feeding power into the ground circuit? The relay I'm using is a simple two lead, power in, power out.
I may have oversimplified the factory schematic, the wire running between the switch center and Pin 22 is the ground circuit for a number of components.
I would be pretty thrilled if it was that easy though. That was where my brain was at first until I looked at the factory wiring.
You need a relay with a separate ground to do it the way I'm suggesting, and I bet the factory relay had a ground connection.
Ground is ground...all power flows through a device to ground. As long as power doesn't back feed and power another component it doesn't matter.
Agreed that ground is ground... I'm just curious how doing anything with Pin 22 without wiring directly to the center pole of the switch will get power back out to the turn signals I guess. I would think it would just immediately ground out since Pin 22 is the dash ground.
I drew up a schematic that patches into the switch center pole. Any issues you see?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v432/theartfuldubber/Trailtech/HarnessDraft1.gif)
Quote from: Artful on January 13, 2011, 08:58:42 AM
Agreed that ground is ground... I'm just curious how doing anything with Pin 22 without wiring directly to the center pole of the switch will get power back out to the turn signals I guess. I would think it would just immediately ground out since Pin 22 is the dash ground.
I drew up a schematic that patches into the switch center pole. Any issues you see?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v432/theartfuldubber/Trailtech/HarnessDraft1.gif)
It will work that way as long as you aren't using pin 22 on the harness.
The way I read the switch diagram is that pin 22
is the center post and
is ground. Moving the lever on the switch completes the circuit.
Like I said, I'm frequently wrong.
The only thing using Pin 22 is the main ground from the gauge and the ground from the indicator LED in my design.
Pin 22 is the ground for both the switch and the dash harness, it doesn't run from Pin 22 to the center pole THEN ground. Believe me, I've caught lots of my own mistakes as I've been doing this. All your help is greatly appreciated.
Soldering this thing and making it small enough to fit behind the windscreen should be "intriguing" [laugh]
Dumb question: Are the "constant power" inputs truly constant or are they switched power supplies?
It just seems odd that there are two +12v inputs, where it's more typical to have one switched input and one truly constant input.
Factory wiring shows one wire coming off the fusebox (pin 1) which feeds from a wire right off the battery (pin 9), then a split to the two pins. Doesn't make sense to me why they would do that either, but if you want I can post the diagram.
Quote from: Artful on January 13, 2011, 09:17:38 AM
The only thing using Pin 22 is the main ground from the gauge and the ground from the indicator LED in my design.
Pin 22 is the ground for both the switch and the dash harness, it doesn't run from Pin 22 to the center pole THEN ground. Believe me, I've caught lots of my own mistakes as I've been doing this. All your help is greatly appreciated.
Soldering this thing and making it small enough to fit behind the windscreen should be "intriguing" [laugh]
Or at least an exercise in frustration. ;D
I'd need to see the whole factory diagram, cluster and ignition switch included, and what you propose to try to 'help' anymore.
Let us know
Ask and ye shall receive. 3 is Ignition, Turn is in section 34. Hope you have your reading glasses out...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v432/theartfuldubber/Trailtech/FactoryHarness.gif)
Ah hell. Is there a way to post oversize images with scroll bars?
Here's the direct image link: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v432/theartfuldubber/Trailtech/FactoryHarness.gif (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v432/theartfuldubber/Trailtech/FactoryHarness.gif)
Quote from: Artful on January 13, 2011, 11:53:06 AM
Ask and ye shall receive. Hope you have your reading glasses out...
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v432/theartfuldubber/Trailtech/FactoryHarness.gif)
Ah hell. Is there a way to post oversize images with scroll bars?
Here's the direct image link: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v432/theartfuldubber/Trailtech/FactoryHarness.gif (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v432/theartfuldubber/Trailtech/FactoryHarness.gif)
I have to go across town and break out my telescope.
I'll get back to you. ;)
I'll save a larger one once I get out of this conference call [laugh]
Quote from: Artful on January 13, 2011, 12:00:35 PM
I'll save a larger one once I get out of this conference call [laugh]
Help a brother out and save the legend too...K? ;)
Alright, this should keep the squinting to a minimum.
Key: (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v432/theartfuldubber/Trailtech/FactoryKey.gif)
Schematic - Remember to click to zoom to full size once the image loads: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v432/theartfuldubber/Trailtech/FactoryHarnessBig.gif (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v432/theartfuldubber/Trailtech/FactoryHarnessBig.gif)
I went ahead and got the diagram off the owner's manual (PDF FTW!)
So yeah, 26/23 are in fact 'always on' connections.
I'm not sure you always want to be sending power to the Veypor since that means it'll be, well, always on. This may eventually drain your battery, etc.
I'd recommend instead using the #2 input so this way it'll actually shut down when you turn off the bike.
Mind you, if the Veypor's power requirements are reaaaaly low you could have it on all the time. But I'm guessing the unit has a back light and even that'll probably draw more current than you'd like.
Quote from: Drunken Monkey on January 13, 2011, 01:26:57 PM
I went ahead and got the diagram off the owner's manual (PDF FTW!)
So yeah, 26/23 are in fact 'always on' connections.
I'm not sure you always want to be sending power to the Veypor since that means it'll be, well, always on. This may eventually drain your battery, etc.
I'd recommend instead using the #2 input so this way it'll actually shut down when you turn off the bike.
Mind you, if the Veypor's power requirements are reaaaaly low you could have it on all the time. But I'm guessing the unit has a back light and even that'll probably draw more current than you'd like.
That was my exact thought but I wasn't sure so I emailed Trailtech. The short answer is that the unit has an auto-off after 20 minutes that only displays the clock with no backlight (so probably about the same draw as the blinking factory immobilizer LED). They recommended against using the switched power because it has a tendency to reset the computer at times.
Cool, then I'd say you're good to go and that actually sounds like a cool feature on the Veypor (I assume 'off' means 0 RPM) [thumbsup]
BTW: the one item I don't see wired up is the "ECU warning light" Might I suggest a discreetly hidden LED just in case you need to diagnose something later?
Off means 0 rpm and 0 mph. Either one will kick on the 'puter.
Yeah, I didn't wire up the ECU warning light or the high beam indicator. I might consider them in the future, for now they seem kinda pointless to me. As an owner of a VW, I only got concerned when the Check Engine Light went off. [laugh]
As you have it laid out in your diagram, it'll work fine. [thumbsup]
DM's right about wiring up an LED or lamp to check for fault codes, etc... Would be nice to know if somethings wrong. Could make the leads long enough & park it under the tank...
Issue. The fuel light doesn't kick off. OEM gauges light the indicator for a few seconds then kicks off. With the LED on switched power and the ground wire going to pin 20 the LED stays on.
Anyone with a bright idea? Bright idea... LED lamp... get it?
Fill more gas? [cheeky]
Does the fuel light stay on when you put the bike in gear? If it goes out in gear you are grounding through the neutral light and a diode will fix it.
Not grounding through anything else from what I can tell. I hooked up a multimeter and the leads showed 12v from pin 26 (12v constant) and pin 20 (fuel "ground")...
Also, I topped the tank off just to be sure, light still on.
The sender in the tank is a two wire proximity swith which are notoriously leaky with voltage. Not enough goes through to light a regular bulb & I'm sure the gauge board compensates for the leak. It would light an LED though...
Or, you have a bad sending unit...
Quote from: Duck-Stew on January 18, 2011, 07:54:30 PM
The sender in the tank is a two wire proximity swith which are notoriously leaky with voltage. Not enough goes through to light a regular bulb & I'm sure the gauge board compensates for the leak. It would light an LED though...
Or, you have a bad sending unit...
That's my theory too. If it's "leaking" (measure the ohms on the sensor with the tank full, if it's not zero, it's 'leaking') use a zener diode. A zener diode blocks the flow of current in one direction, unless the current goes above a certain voltage. 9v should do the trick to keep current from flowing to the light until the sensor's resistance drops below a certain threshold.
Mind you... yours normally lights up when you first turn on the bike, correct? This points to some weird combo of the dash / ECU doing something in concert with the sensor. in which case you'll probably need a relay to make it work. :P
With the tank full I was getting like 40mV from that lead to ground in the time period that the stock dash illuminated the fuel light. So definitely not enough to light anything, but if that is all that comes off that circuit when the lamp lights I could possibly find a relay that would trigger with that voltage to complete a 12V circuit with the LED. If the voltage increases as I remove fuel I can just wire in a zener or something that won't allow flow until it hits a certain voltage then run that through the indicator. Calibrating that voltage will probably leave me stranded on the side of the road once or twice :D
When this gets done and works, someone is buying me a beer (and I will pass that beer along to whoever helps me figure this damn thing out ):) :)
So you're seeing 40mV off the two leads, and then seeing that drop to 0v after a bit of time?
If that's the case you should go with a small relay, as you suggest. just make sure the relay can be triggered by a tiny voltage.
If you're seeing 40mV off the two leads all the time, then test to see what the voltage is with the tank empty. That'll give you all the answers you need to wire this up. Somehow.
So I'm officially at an impasse. Measured voltage from Pin 20 (fuel lead) to ground and got essentially zero change from full to empty. Drained the tank a bit then ran the motor until the factory light came on, pulled the gauges and measured without turning the bike off, no change in voltage.
So the answer is magic. Magic turns on the factory fuel light. Stew talk to me about this switch, what leads should I be testing, and what should I be testing for? Voltage? Resistance?
I'm above my paygrade here gents, any and all help is appreciated.
i know i said i was gonna stay outta this...
Whats the chance of it not being voltage related but signal generated? The electrical geeks know more about what I'm suggesting than I do. So I'm ducking out again :D
Distinct possibility. To compound matters, after the stock fuel light comes on once, you kill the bike and restart, it takes a while to come on again. That's normal and has been like that since I bought the bike. So like I said... it runs simply on magic.
Quote from: Artful on February 01, 2011, 04:15:59 AM
Distinct possibility. To compound matters, after the stock fuel light comes on once, you kill the bike and restart, it takes a while to come on again. That's normal and has been like that since I bought the bike. So like I said... it runs simply on magic.
Mine too. So, the low fuel light can't be a steady flow of electricity? Maybe the ECU gets a steady flow, but needs some time to decide that it's time to tell you through the light - which also avoids a flickering light when it's getting close. If I'm right you need to connect closer to the tank, not after the ECU. (be careful - I have no clue - just thinking out loud)