Ducati Monster Forum

I have an 08 S2R 1k. I am thinking of possibly investing in a full Zard system. Question is- Fit and finish. I can see by the pics posted that they look great. How about the clearance between swing arm and (cross over) pipe. the one that goes to the leftside. What are the downsides to these pipes? Also, how about the tuning? DP uses Termi's with thier specific ecu. What are my options if I choose to get the Zards as far as tuning? I am looking for best look and quality.

I don't have a set but am seriously considering them for my s2r 1K.  I'd be interested in feedback from any 1K owners who've installed the Zard system, too, especially re: how they work with the stock ECU/02 sensor.

Yeah, stock ecu as well. I would like to open the air filter up though. I do like the sound of the air getting sucked in. (I am pretty happy with the sould of the stock cans.) Looking for something a little beefier.

I got a pair on my S2R8.  Prettiest looking system out there IMHO.  I got them when they just became available in the US.  Mine had a loose piece of metal in the muffler that kept bouncing around and  some "stretch marks" which I was told is a byproduct of the steel bending process.  They took the loose piece of metal out so I'm happy.  Also no mater what I did my left can sits a bit lower than my right.  I think thats just part of the design.  Its not noticeable at all though unless you are a anal dude.  Other than that no problems.   

Tip:  No matter what system you get if its stainless steel make sure to stay on top of it with Brasso or WD-40 or else it will brown up on you.  Get the Zards! [thumbsup]  Oh and after you get it get a trim adjustment of your stock ECU (don't know if you can do that on your particular bike though).  If not you can get a custom map with PCIII...have fun.

I have a Zard full system on my 2007 S2R1K, baffles removed.  Installed it myself with no problems.  Dyno showed that the bike was way too lean with the stock ECU and O2 senor disconnected or connected.   I bought the DP ECU, opened the airbox and added a BMC filter .  Dyno testing showed that it was still too lean between 3k and 5k rpms.  Bought a PCIII, had it custom mapped on the dyno for a flat AFR, and couldn't be happier with how it runs.

As for the brown color, that is what raw stainless does if you don't keep after it, which does not bother me a bit. 

For the OP that had a loose piece of metal inside... Did you remove the baffles?  If so, I'm betting it was the nut that dropped into the can when the baffle was removed.  Almost happened to me, but I was forewarned.

Hi Ivan -

Thanks for the really useful info.  I have a full Zard SS/Ti set and PCIII sitting on my workbench, because I haven't yet solved some of the problems that you seem to have figured out.  Hoping you can answer a few questions:

- Did you buy the DP ECU standalone, or with the Termi kit (and then sell off the pipes)? If the former, and you found a good price, can you share your source (and verify which P/N you ordered)?

- Which model PCIII did you use?  I bought a 717-411 (the one for the 03/04 M1000), but I've heard conflicting reports as to the success of deployments with this model for our configuration.

- Do you have before & after dyno test results you can share? (I've been monitoring TOB and DMF and don't recall seeing yours posted, but I might have missed them).  About how much did you need to spend on dyno tuning to get it right, and where did you get it done?

Thanks for any clarification you can provide.

Dave

I bought the DP ECU standalone, from Ducati Seattle (with 10% DML discount).  I'll have to check the P/N when I get home.

I also used the 717-411 PCIII.  It actually had like 2 or 3 different P/Ns on the box, all apparently equivalent.  Had the PCIII installed and mapped by Spectrum Motorsports in Irvine.  They apparently did not have any problems with it.  I *think* that you need the DP ECU (which is open loop) for the PCIII to work correctly.  The install and  mapping on the dyno was ~$350.

I have some dyno results that I can post-up later. 

Ivan could do you think you would have gotten the same results without the DP ECU?  If you just used a PCIII?  I don't see why not.


No, no, thats not what happened.  I actually sent it to Zard and they had to take the rivets out to get to it.  They said it was a loose rivet that got in there during production....I know; pretty strange huh? 

What is all of this about PCIII, DP Ecu? I guess the real ? is why not one or the other? What is the PCIII? Almost ready to pull the trigger on the ZARD full system. However, If I have to buy new ecu, PCIII, and have the dealer charge me an arm and leg for install and setup, would I not be better off just getting the DP package? And with the ZARD system, does the left pipe just hang there? I am sure that I could figure out some sort of hanger, but I don't want to start (Jimmy riging) something.

An ECU contains a program in it (aka "map") which determines the specific fuel/air ratios at different throttle openings.  Your ECU is not adjustable other than a trim adjustment which cost $80, but I don't know if your bike will allow even that.  Now,  what the PCIII does is allow the tuner to decrease or increase the fuel/air ratios from the ECU in essence making the ECU adjustable.  If you get an after market system AND mess with your air box lid by cutting or taking it off then you have to get a PCIII (ideally with a custom map).  If you get a after market system and you don't mess with your air box you don't have to get a PCIII, but at least have the dealer adjust the trim for you and see if you are happy.  In this case if you are not happy after the trim adjustment or if your bike doesn't allow for a trim adjustment then you should do the responsible thing and get a PCIII. 

The Zard system comes with a bracket for the left muffler.  The bracket is mounted under your left hand side panel/cover.  Also you could install the system yourself and save some money.  I think a Zard system with a PCIII and a custom map would cost the same as a Termi system with DP ECU.  By the way if you get the Zards you will want to either get a fender eliminator "tail chop" kit or at least a half tail chop kit or else the signals will kind of be in the way. 

If you have a bike with a closed loop ECU (like the S2R1K), you most likely need the DP ECU to eliminate the closed loop before adding a PCIII.  This has been a subject of great debate.  At least one really good tuner has managed to simply disconnect the O2 sensor, install a PCIII or similar, and get good results.  Others have reported that doing so will not provide a stable result, speculating that at some point the stock ECU will vary the AFR which can then make your PCIII map incorrect. 


As for my dyno results, this is going to be a long story so get comfortable [coffee]

I ran mine for couple of months with the O2 sensor disconnected.  When I first disconnected it, the bike seemed to run much better.  After several weeks, I reconnected it, and then it also seemed to run better.  After doing this a couple of times, I got the feeling that there is no telling how the ECU is reacting over a long period of time due to disconnectnig or re-connecting the O2 sensor.  It seemed to me that any time I made a change, it would run well, but then after some period of time it would go back to the way it previously ran.   I was totally convinced that nobody understands how the ECU reacts to having the O2 sensor disconnected.  I was also running with just an open udder for an exhaust system at the time.

Decided to put it on a dyno, and try to figure out what it was doing.  Had back-to-band runs with and w/o the O2 sensor connected.  The results were horrible in both cases:

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2378/2139834269_41e2c2b4cf_o.jpg)

The AFR was off the chart lean in both cases (O2 connected was the worst of the two).  Its worth noting that I thought the bike actually ran fairly well, no popping, backfiring, or scary looking sparkplugs.  Having seen that AFR , I was worried about the longevity of the engine, so I ran out and bought the DP ECU.  Had it installed/setup at the dealer.  Did not do a dyno run, but the tech said it did not seem to be running all that great compared to the Termi kits that he'd installed.  He said that running the short open udder for an exhaust was a bad idea.  Having seen how a short, low-restriction exhaust sytem can cause reversion on other bikes (HD),  I believed him.  Decided to go with the Zard full system.  Installed that, opened the airbox added a BMC filter, then took it to the dealer for another dyno run.  Here are the results:


(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2092/2371718933_87235c713d.jpg)

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2187/2371718455_8671fb1ef7.jpg)

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2341/2371717993_0315424741.jpg)



Much better, but still kinda lean in the low rpms, causing the TQ curve to roll off sharply.  It was definitely running waay better than ever before, much funner to ride, but I wanted perfection.  Next up was the PCIII.  Here is the before & after...

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3261/2574576926_8b481a3b8c.jpg)

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3167/2573755241_0f4d194136.jpg)

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3064/2573755825_bf482b30b7.jpg)

So, the moral of this story?  Once you start messing around with mods, be prepared to invest what it takes to do the job right.  Just because Joe-blow says that you can run a full exhaust with the stock ECU, don't believe it unless you verify it on your bike.  Take nothing for granted.  I believe that these DS1000 engines are amazingly robust. They can run ridiculously lean, and still behave rather well (no detonation, etc).  You may think that your bike runs well, and maybe it does, but you'll never really know unless you put it on a dyno.  I would never have believed how much better my engine could run after being dyno tuned, if I hadn't experienced the difference for myself.

Great write-up Ivan......

I have similar results to Ivan & we  dyoned our bikes on the same day back to back befor Ivan did the PCIII.  On my bike, S2R1K with full carbon Arrows & DP HM ECU & open lid, I had about the same power as Ivan but much better A/F.  My bike was at 13/1 @ 5400 RPM & just below or just above that before & after 5400 RPM.  My bike made about 85 HP @ 7,500 RPM & 65 ft/lbs. of torque @ 5,500 RPM.

Stock with the same setup & the O2 sensor installed, my bike made 62 Hp @  8000 RPM & 62 ft/lbs. of torque @ 5400 RPM.  This was also with the front cylinder at 6% CO & the rear @ less than 1% ???  That was a result of my expirence @ Del Amo & that story is a whole thread on it's own!  A/F was 15/1 or above from 4000 RPM to 8000RPM.

What appears to be only small differences on the dyno are huge while riding...... my bike stock came off the clutch terribly even with a 14T & just felt soft before I added the DP HM ECU...... couldn't really tell the differences until I swapped the ECU's & rode them back to back..... that made me really appreciate the DP ECU & open lid.

As Ivan correctly stated, the DS 1000 seems to run quite well even lean but until you ride one that's tuned well, you'll never know the difference.  With this bike the old saying that ignorance is bliss certainly is true [laugh]

Ivan, if you still have my dyno's, could you post them here....... I seem to have lost them in the move from TOB where you originally posted them.

Oh yeah,  hold your breath Al....... I don't want to here how much better a Rapid Bike is than my & Ivan's setups [laugh]

Thanks Ivan & GusDuc - this thread has been extremely useful because you've both taken the time to lay out important diagnostics, upgrade details and test results.

Ivan, if possible I'd still be very interested in the DP P/N you ordered, in part because to facilitate my shopping I want to confirm whether Ducati uses a different P/N for the same ECU depending upon whether it's in the Termi kit.

GusDuc, I've read yours and others posts on TOB plus this one on the HM ECU, and remain a little confused as to whether this is an equally good option to the S2R1K DP ECU (or if it's equal technically but cheaper, in which case perhaps it's a better option).  Can you elaborate on that once again?  If you consider it a recommended option, and you bought the HM ECU standalone, can you provide the source and P/N?

Ivan & Gusduc - Did either of you do any back-to-back tests with and without the open airbox?  Based on your experiences, do you consider that to be an obvious complementary mod with the full exhaust/DP ECU/PCIII/dyno tune upgrade process, or are there still good reasons to leave the airbox alone with this config?

Thanks again guys.

Dave

ECU P/N:  96517406B

I don't have anything showing back-to-back with open-closed airbox.  I believe it plays a major role in the power increase.  I mean, you can have a wide open exhaust, but if the intake is still sucking through a straw..... Besides, it sounds really good, and all the cool kids are doing it.

Seeing the results from Gus' and my bike from the same dyno on the same day convinced me that these bikes are not all setup the same way at the factory.  Another reason to verify your work once you start messing around with changing things.  Here are Gus' dyno results, before and after the HM DP ECU...

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3066/2372929632_e83f394eaa.jpg)

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3042/2372929776_432e84bb80.jpg)

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2275/2372094241_a910472b18.jpg)

Gus and I ended up with about the same results, but he got there for a lot less money.  I was very dismayed that mine was still so lean after installing the DP ECU.  I'm thinking that it might be because the DP ECU for the S2R1K is actually intended for use with the Termi slip-ons, and I have a full system.  Having said that, others with full-systems have installed the same ECU and reported results similar to Gus' without needing to add the PCIII. ???

I have Zards on my S2R800, so ECU/re-mapping may not be the same for you with the closed loop, but I had my dealer adjust the stock ECU and it runs great (I still have the unmodified stock airbox).  Watch out for boot melt, you will either need to craft your own heel guard, or I just put high-temp silicone on the inside of my right boot.  I don't think you can beat the look or the sound, 102db is just right -- just enough to set off car alarms in my parking garage  [evil], but not loud enough to get lumped in with all the backfiring Harleys out on the street. 

A very reputable local dealer advised pretty much against the Zards.  I know they look awesome, but the popping and "post-install" tuning were not easy, or cheap.

The way I understand it is that the standard ECU is and always will remain a closed loop.  Meaning you can't trim any parameters on it.  You can add a PCIII, but it seems people who have done the exhaust mod wind up buying the Ducati Performance ECU.

What that allows (again, this is my understanding of it) is an open loop system.  Now, it's possible to trim the CO (with the DP ECU).  If more mapping is needed, the system will be more responsive to it.

+1 Thats a good point if you have a S2R1000.  I have an S2R8, with no O2 sensor but if I had a 1000 I would probably go with the Termis or just leave it stock or else there is going to be too much B/S to deal with.  But I don't think its just with the Zards I think his advice is for any after market system excluding Termis.0 

Glad I could help Dave [thumbsup]

As Ivan mentioned I'm into my set-up for less than $400 including the dyno pulls...... the open lid does make quite a differnce IF, & only IF you have an ECU that will keep the A/F between 12.5/1 & 13.5/1...... if not, you'll be too lean & lose some power.   It's not too much louder ith the open lid but much deper & smoother sounding although you do get more intake noise.... I can't seem to hear it over the Arrows though [evil]

The only problem I've had with the HM ECU is that eery once in a while, when I start the bike, the tach freaks out & the dash stays lit.  If I notice it right away & shut it off, the dash goes off & i can restart it & everything is fine.  If I don't catch it & leave it running, I have to unhook the battery to turn it off. I think the HM's have a sensor that my S2R1K doesn't have & occasionaly this causes an issue.  To me it's a small price to pay for the much better power & A/F not to mention how much better it feels [thumbsup]  I'm running the DP HM ECU designed for the 2 into 1 system & not the cam ECU...... the tech @ Spectrum said that the HM ECU dumps plenty of fuel in down low & could make a little more power with a PCIII & a remap.  I chose to leave it alone as it's not worth another $400 or so for 1 or 2 HP & I like less things plugged in [thumbsup]

p.s.  Thanks for posting the dynos Ivan [thumbsup]