Anyone use the new style gear select alignment tool, aka Fork Tool??
PN 887133334 (replaces 887131091 shown in all the workshop manuals).
Received one today. It looks TOTALLY different! 2-3" black J shaped bracket with two holes and a pressed in pin.
I don't have my cover off yet, but I don't really see how to use it. It must somehow bolt to the case and the pressed pin indicates correct position??
BK
Got a pic of it?
Quote from: Speeddog on January 28, 2011, 10:15:58 PM
Got a pic of it?
Here's a couple:
(http://i54.tinypic.com/2z84uwk.jpg)
(http://i54.tinypic.com/2mhj7ev.jpg)
Thanks for the pics.
I can't see any obvious way to use that tool. ???
Thanks, Speeddog. My current thinking is that it bolts to the case roughly as in the first pic, using the lower mounting point for the clutch slave cylinder, and the tool pin simply indexes the shift drum in 2nd gear. Gear selector alignment must then be visual, since there are no markings on the tool. Hard to say without mounting things up, but I'm not sure that I want to pull the cover until I know for certain how this thing works and I have a clear path forward to setup the new linkage.
BK
You're on the right path.
There's the possibility that you can puzzle it out after you've got the cover off.
But that's not nearly as good a plan as opening the cover *after* you've got the technique defined.
Are you doing this to adjust the shifter mechanism for smoother operation? I wonder if I could talk you into documenting your process after you get it all figured out. This is an adjustment I'm sure others would like to make and you're in a good position to be a teacher of sorts. :D
Quote from: Speeddog on January 29, 2011, 08:50:26 AM
You're on the right path.
There's the possibility that you can puzzle it out after you've got the cover off.
But that's not nearly as good a plan as opening the cover *after* you've got the technique defined.
OK, decided to dive in regardless.
Alternator cover is off. I can only figure out ONE way to attach the tool. One hole attaches to the "alignment bushing" for the alternator cover, and the other hole (slightly elongated) is for the clutch slave pushrod. In this configuration the pin of the tool rides on top of the shift selector fork and presses down on it. The pin does not seem to correspond to the center mark on the selector fork. I've been unable to get official instructions (not sure what gear the transmission is supposed to be in, etc.).
Here are some pics. If anyone has any info I'm all ears!
The shifter mechanism itself seems to be fine. All springs are intact, etc. More slop than I was expecting from the shifter input shaft by the grab it and wiggle it test, but this is my first experience here.
BK
(http://i56.tinypic.com/260ewqo.jpg)
(http://i53.tinypic.com/2rc4pif.jpg)
???
I should know more about the use of the tool in a couple of days. Playing voicemail tag with a dealer contact.
I mentioned what I perceived as excessive slop in the overall linkage mechanism. Not sure how much is normal, since this is the first one I've been into. Too tight and it will bind up, too loose and it will lead to no good. My objective with this project is to get the shifting working as good as I can and verify proper function and adjustment.
The diagram below shows two shim positions indicated in red. Part numbers are available for 0.2mm and 0.5mm thickness shims. Play here could account for the slop I noticed. My manuals do not mention the shims.
Anyone have any experience or tips on fine-tuning the linkage?
BK
(http://i55.tinypic.com/ogyjvl.jpg)
Found a good socket to remove the Nichols flywheel nuts, allowing me to finally remove the shift linkage.
Seems to be in order, except for some minor damage to two surfaces that interface with the shift drum. The forward "hook" of the harpoon is a bit rounded off, and the flat piece that limits drum rotation has some metal gone. I already have a new "harpoon" piece ready to go on.
BK
(http://i52.tinypic.com/260yhyo.jpg)
(http://i55.tinypic.com/2jacmm1.jpg)
(http://i51.tinypic.com/2zhinwl.jpg)
Go to the European Cycle Services website, they have a tech section. During a racebike project they did adjust the shifter linkage on a superbike. Not totally applicable to your situation, but it may offer some insight since the 'harpoon' piece was mentioned and they explained what to do with it, kinda. It may help you out somewhat.
Quote from: bergdoerfer on February 06, 2011, 07:54:19 PM
Go to the European Cycle Services website, they have a tech section. During a racebike project they did adjust the shifter linkage on a superbike. Not totally applicable to your situation, but it may offer some insight since the 'harpoon' piece was mentioned and they explained what to do with it, kinda. It may help you out somewhat.
Good call. That photo series clarifies some things for me with respect to the pin contact with the tab piece. Makes sense. One comment struck home..."When they are this far out it can miss the pin and jam"...which sorta looks like what might have happened to my tab, and I did get stuck in gear once last year - partly prompting the current adventure. I also see that my original harpoon tab, the part that was mising some metal, was only partially engaging the pin. Maybe due to the slop in the mechanism. I'll pay attention to that on reassembly.
BK
I finally connected with Marty at ducsea and he gave me the skinny on the new tool [thumbsup]
- The tool is positioned correctly in my pics. Clutch pushrod should also go through the tool to correctly index it.
- The mystery pin is used to establish proper travel of the harpoon in both directions. The pin goes BELOW the harpoon piece, not over it as shown in my pic. That is the key part I was missing. Now I get it.
- The new tool was developed because of linkage interference issues with the larger timing gears on some of the newer bikes. It is said to be a far better tool.
- After using the tool, it's still important to verify proper contact with the overshift stop in both directions.
Talking with Mike at Nichols about some flywheel installation details, he says worn out or buggered up harpoon pieces are very common. On his race bike he replaces them every few months. So, my wear seems be pretty normal after 20k miles of twisties.
The minimal contact depth with the shift drum pins on my particular unit is because my harpoon piece is bent outward. Confirmed this with a straight-edge. Judging from the wear pattern it has been this way since new. I think the slop in the uninstalled linkage is normal and not the cause of my issue.
BK
This is very interesting and shall be tucked away in my files.
Didn't see it mentioned earlier, how much did said tool set you back?
Seems as if it will only touch the rearward hook?
Quote from: Speeddog on February 09, 2011, 08:51:27 PM
Seems as if it will only touch the rearward hook?
Certainly looks that way from the pic. I'll update after I give it a go. I also became aware of a service bulletin kit to reinforce the linkage and update one of the springs, so I want to throw that in as well while everything is opened up.
The tool was $86. It remains to be seen how critical it is. The entire mechanism was a bit of a mystery to me when I started, so the tool sounded like a really good idea for a successful outcome. Now that I've studied things for a bit I think I could set up the linkage without a tool.
BK
Got a link or more info on that service bulletin?
From the looks of it, that tool just makes the adjustment nearly idiot resistant/automatic, I can see it helping on the production line.
Quote from: Speeddog on February 09, 2011, 09:34:13 PM
Got a link or more info on that service bulletin?
From the looks of it, that tool just makes the adjustment nearly idiot resistant/automatic, I can see it helping on the production line.
PM'd some info to you. Full details with pics and ride report after the install!
BK
The components of the service bulletin shifter upgrade kit come in a small box and the five included pieces are shown to the left.
Different (lighter?) harpoon spring, clip for harpoon, two bolts and a reinforcing plate for the shifter mechanism where it attaches to the case.
From what I can tell these are standard parts on some of the current SBKs.
My plan is to install the kit, a new harpoon piece and shim out some of the linkage slop with specified 0.2 thrust washers. That and a careful adjustment.
BK
(http://i56.tinypic.com/zvzfpx.jpg)
Below are pics of the installed shifter update reinforcement plate + grade 12.9 bolts, and also the proper attachment of the new style gear select alignment tool (note that pin goes under the harpoon).
The new tool seems to work well - pretty much a fool-proof method. Attach tool, tighten linkage bolts, verify proper pin contact on both sides of the overshift stop tab, done.
BK
(http://i52.tinypic.com/24e2ur9.jpg)
(http://i51.tinypic.com/14o93ia.jpg)
That's pretty cool. These pictures are very helpful to see how it would all work before receiving one and beign lost.
question, which bikes (motors) do the update shifter reinforcement plate apply to?
Quote from: a m on February 21, 2011, 07:45:34 PM
That's pretty cool. These pictures are very helpful to see how it would all work before receiving one and beign lost.
question, which bikes (motors) do the update shifter reinforcement plate apply to?
If I remember the service bulletin wording correclty...all 2v and 4v bikes...pretty much covers the bases!
BTW, you can buy the "kit" in a cute little box for $45, or you can buy the parts individually for 1/3 of that.
BK
One more piece of my ongoing shift-improvement project: micro-bearing detent arm and spring from factory pro.
BK
(http://i53.tinypic.com/11ky1bb.jpg)
That is one weird website (factorypro). Did you notice the Russia shipping option? The M800 is not listed for the shift kit, but may be close enough to the S2R. Let us know if it is a good thumbs up. Thanks!
I've got one of those on the shelf for my bike and one for the other 900, just gotta put em in still. I laughed pretty hard when they gave it an "Italian sounding name"
Quote from: battlecry on February 24, 2011, 05:05:33 AM
That is one weird website (factorypro). Did you notice the Russia shipping option? The M800 is not listed for the shift kit, but may be close enough to the S2R. Let us know if it is a good thumbs up. Thanks!
Agreed - very weird site layout. I had a bunch of communication with the owner (?) and he was very responsive. Don't let the site weirdness put you off. Part might cross to many other models - M695 was not listed, but they added it on the spot after I inquired. They're somewhat local to me and I might also use them for some nemesis tuning on another bike. I dont' have the monster fully assembeled yet, but already the shifter action feels better, more precise, more "rifle bolt action" like. We'll see how it rides...
BK
they really do need a site overhaul. didn't see the russia shipping option, but its kind of hard to find anything specific if you are looking for it. I usually get in the general vicinity of where I think something will be, and then start hitting Ctrl+F and typing in something I think it will contain.
I got my Factory Pro micro-bearing shift detent from CA Cycleworks. Got it from a board sponsor and saved some money in the process.
Can we make a parts list? I'd like to be able to have necessary equipment & parts when I do this down the road.
Tool: 887133334 (supersedes 887131091)
Kit: 69924492A which contains:
harpoon spring
clip for harpoon
two bolts
reinforcing plate
Ducati OEM Thrust Washer (0,2 shims): 076592205 ($1.19)
Ducati OEM Thrust Washer (0,5 shims): 040009050 ($1.49)
The original M900 shift springs and such are:
79910251A (superseded) --> 79914821A (new) ($4.26) (selector fork return spring, aka harpoon spring above)
079913110 (gear change lever return spring - the "other spring" in the assembly) ($9.21)
021407350 (the clip) ($1.09)
From the M1100 diagram:
79914821A - same selector fork spring as the one the M900 was superseded to. ($4.26)
71319151A - the plate ($3.47)
88450341A - "the ring" (the clip from above) ($1.09)
079913110 - same lever return spring as the M900 and all Ducs from 1978 apparently ($9.21)
and if you need a new gear change fork:
18010081A - "gear change fork" ($23.39)
The two screws look to be an M8x20, and an M6x20 (77151238B, 77110263A) ($1.00, $1.21) (or at your hardware store)
So, I'm not certain that the M1100 has the same exact parts as the kit fitted from the factory, but I would lean towards that since the parts diagram finder on commoto didn't indicated "superseded". It does, however, include that plate and such, and the spring is an updated spring from what came originally on the 900, so I'm leaning towards yes?
The 695, like the M900, originally used spring # 79910251A according to this parts diagram, and like the M900, did not use that retaining plate, but used individual washers under the bolts into the crankcase.
its very handy that the shift mechanisms is the first parts diagram in the catalogs.
You 4V people: The 4V motor used the same spring in the corresponding model years, for example, the 996 also used the 79910251A spring, which has been superseded to the 79914821A. Likewise, the latest 4V SBKs specify the same updated spring 79914821A and the same plate: 71319151A
I noticed that your tool - the 887133334 new tool (styled "Plate for Positioning Gear Engangement Fork") does not have the knob on the long side of the L as it shows in the catalog. Looks like it wouldn't be necessary or even useful by any means, though.
So, unless the 69924492A "kit" comes with different parts than what is on the new bikes, the DIY version is:
887133334 - Tool (if needed) ($86.83)
79914821A - New Spring
71319151A - Plate
88450341A - Clip
Total MSRP $95.65 +/- $86.83 (Parts Required: ~$8.82)
Cost:
Shims you may need:
0,2 thickness - 076592205 - $1.09/ea
0,5 thickness - 040009050 - $1.49/ea
If you buy the two bolts, add $2.21 to the total.
The bolt sizes are listed as M8x20 and M6x20 (I'd guess they are 10.9 or so from the factory, but I don't know, they could be 8.8 - the 12.9 grade mentioned above is stronger than 10.9, and 10.9 is stronger than 8.8;
Ti could be used as a substitute in this situation, likely, as it is a suitable replacement for any Grade 9 or lower bolt, and can be used in some 10.9 applications - but its not as strong as the 12.9. The 6Al4V Ti that I see bolts made from would have a yield strength of mid 800's MPa and an ultimate strength over 900 MPa. That's closer to steel 10.9 (940/1040) than to steel 9.8 (720/900) and certainly sufficient for steel 8.8 (660/830).
So that would be like $10 in bolts. (Exactly $10.00 + cheap USPS shipping on RaceBolts.com, for example).
I'll cross-check my part numbers this weekend and follow-up here.
- The shift mechanism seems to be common to most (all?) Ducatis and goes back many years.
- Gear change fork (harpoon) is definitely a wear item - check for trueness and excessive grooves/wear.
- The two new bolts that were part of the "service bulletin" kit were black grade 12.9, compared to the original silver grade 8.8 that I removed. The serrated washers of the original design are not used with the new plate. The larger bolt was about 5mm longer than the one I removed.
- 0.2 and 0.5 thickness shims are available for both pivot locations - different diameters.
- If I was doing it again, I might also put in a new lower pivot plate (the one that bolts to the case) and associated parts. There is some potential for wear there.
- The overall design seems to actually need some tolerance/slop. Shim it too tight and things will bind up and/or feel very goofy.
- Ducati's motivation for the revisions (parts and tools) is apparently to decrease the frequency of (a) poor adjustment from the factory (b) stuck shift mechanisms, and (c) linkage contact with the gear behind the flywheel on the newer bikes.
BK
contact with the sprag gear?
Quote from: a m on February 25, 2011, 11:02:07 AM
contact with the sprag gear?
I'm not certain of the proper terminology...not the freewheeling gear attached to the flywheel, but the gear fixed to the shaft, behind the needle bearing, against the case. The shifter linkage can come very close, and with hard shifting/flexing contact can be made between the linkage and the gear (not good). Clearances are apparently even tighter on the newer SBKs due to a larger gear size. I'm told you want >1-2mm clearance during linkage setup.
BK
Very interesting. I had not heard of this happening but do not doubt that some people can flex the hell out of those things with aggressive/frantic shifting and whatnot.
Quote from: a m on February 25, 2011, 11:34:30 AM
Very interesting. I had not heard of this happening but do not doubt that some people can flex the hell out of those things with aggressive/frantic shifting and whatnot.
Adrenaline flows freely at trackdays!
Dealer tells me they install lots of the service bulletin kits on hypermotards because dudes ride them like dirt bikes [evil]
BK
that would make a lot of sense, especially if they occasionally stomped on the lever as such. (rather than toe-ing it)
Occasionally? With Alpinestar Tech 8's there is no such thing as shifting finesse.
Got the first ride in today since replacing the shifter parts/clutch plates/etc. Actually the first ride since early November. 80 miles of beautiful twisties.
The shifter works perfectly and is a huge improvement. Not a single hiccup. So glad that I did this. Mission accomplished!
BK
So after 3-4 months I started to get the occasional false neutral again on 3-2 downshifts. A couple days ago on an epic 400mile ride the problem got worse and worse, including one stuck shifter episode that I recovered from by rolling the throttle on/off with upward pressure on the shift lever (deja vu).
Pulled the cover/flywheel and fit the factory tool - way out of adjustment and not the way I left it! No loose bolts. Removed the linkage and found that the smaller linkage spring had contacted the gear behind the flywheel and was nearly worn through. Trying to get out of the false neutrals would sometimes give a whirring sound - must have been that gear rubbing on the spring.
The shifter update kit was supposed to help prevent this issue???
So....this next time around I'm going to replace every single piece of the linkage and take more care in the linkage setup (10 new pieces total).
The "careful setup" part is confounded by the slop in the linkage without the cover in place. I'm thinking it would be great to cut a cover in half to properly hold the linkage assembly in its installed position to confirm a primo setup. Part of the setup is to move the lever both directions and make sure the shift drum pins correctly contact the overshift tab. Anyone have a lead on a scrap cover?
BK
Sucks that you're still having issues. :(
Rather than cut up a cover, how about making a plate with a close fitting hole for the shift shaft, and pick up a couple of the cover bolts?
Quote from: BK_856er on June 19, 2011, 12:28:47 PMAnyone have a lead on a scrap cover?
I've got an extremely filthy dirty ugly 620 cover that you probably wouldn't feel bad about cutting in half. It's been completely stripped, no bearings, seals, etc.
While I wait for my shifter linkage parts, I've been thinking about the update kit and what might have gone wrong with my setup. I used the torque specs given in the manual, but I think that was my mistake here. Spent some time reviewing parts diagrams and torque specs across several models. You could see where over time Ducati slowly raised the torque and use of loctite on the two bolts that hold the shifter linkage assembly to the case. In 2010 it seems the "reinforcing plate" became standard and at least on the MTS1200 the spec went from 25Nm and 9Nm, to 36Nm and 16Nm with Lock 2 on each, for the M8 and M6 bolts respectively. I guess that's why they needed to up the bolt grade to 12.9. I put an inquiry into my dealer a few days ago about the details of the service bulletin, but I haven't heard back so I guess they don't like to give out details on this sort of thing. Seems prudent to follow the higher 2010 MTS1200 numbers when I put things back together....
BK
**edit** I got to see the actual May 2009 service bulletin on the revised shifter parts. It clearly states that 25Nm and 9Nm should be used on the M8 and M6 bolts respectively, with loctite 243 on both, and WARNS in caps to comply. Maybe the higher spec I mention above is only for the new blocks with different metallurgy. Now I'm at a loss to explain my recurrence. Also noted is an updated stopper plate pn 82610301A to be used if the original is >27.0mm wide (i.e., bent). I have one on the way to compare against the new old pn that I received. This will delay assembly about a week. Dealer suggested that I remove and inspect the timing gears on the alternator side as any tiny defect due to the contact with the linkage spring can create noise - looks OK under magnification. Demolished an alternator cover berg sent me to help with the final adjustment - nearly ready...
Some visuals below to go with the updated information in my previous post:
Sacrificed alternator cover to aid final adjustment check.
(http://i52.tinypic.com/28iqjox.jpg)
Signs of contact with timing gear.
(http://i53.tinypic.com/25pmvj4.jpg)
Evidence of imperfect linkage setup (should be two marks on overshift tab).
(http://i55.tinypic.com/2ccufeq.jpg)
Got the new stop plate in today - it's the one on the right - both are brand new. Seems to be a corsa part. Note the more limited adjustment range (holes not as elongated) and the machined surface. Some differences in the tab area as well. Feels like a higher spec part to match its price. Hopefully it does the trick for me.
BK
(http://i53.tinypic.com/28214si.jpg)
(http://i51.tinypic.com/t7jzwg.jpg)
All brand new shifter components shimmed up and assembled today.
Here's the contraption mounted up:
(http://i53.tinypic.com/nx5f1j.jpg)
Here's the distance the to timing gear on downshift:
(http://i52.tinypic.com/21kiljt.jpg)
Center position, with case scribed to help future troubleshooting if something moves:
(http://i53.tinypic.com/dw856x.jpg)
Downshift overshift tab position - looks good:
(http://i52.tinypic.com/qowo61.jpg)
Upshift overshft tab position - looks good:
(http://i54.tinypic.com/2qb6i51.jpg)
Corsa stop plate + reinforcing plate torqued to spec:
(http://i53.tinypic.com/dpafcm.jpg)
I did a post-mortem on the original shifter and everything measured perfectly. My only explanation for the recent problem is that the mechanism shifted at the case attachment point.
No test ride yet. Still need to add oil and fix my melted alternator wiring. After buttoning everything up I'm having some difficulty getting into first gear. Hopefully it'll be OK after I fill with oil and ride it. I have no more patience for this!
BK
You're doing a great job with the photodocumentation and explanation.
amen.
no joke, i wish there was this thorough of a documented trouble-shooting for all problems - especially since this is (like many other bits and pieces) common across all the models past through present
Thanks, guys. I'm hoping others can find this thread helpful. It should apply to many models across many years.
Sitting back enjoying a cold one right now after the first test ride. 100 miles of beautiful twisties. I hammered it pretty good and the shifter did not miss a beat. In fact, I think it feels better than ever - it now has that nice telepathic feel where you just think about it and it goes in. Let's hope it stays that way this time!
Just to clarify I replaced EVERYTHING with the most current parts/fixes. Also shimmed out all the slop with multiple shims and smoothed some of the components. Cost about $350 in parts I think - way cheaper than dropping the motor and pulling the gears, which would have been my next step. The cover from bergdoerfer that I cut up added much peace of mind for the final adjustment.
BK
Someone as persnickety as me. I understand where you come from. If you ran a parts breakdown I would understand where the $350 came from. Some of that is from buying the same parts twice I assume, and are you including cost of special tools in that figure?
Quote from: bergdoerfer on July 22, 2011, 06:38:33 PM
Someone as persnickety as me. I understand where you come from. If you ran a parts breakdown I would understand where the $350 came from. Some of that is from buying the same parts twice I assume, and are you including cost of special tools in that figure?
That's roughly the cost to purchase the ~15 pieces to recreate the entire linkage assembly one time as shown in the parts diagram on the first page of this thread (+ corsa stop plate + service bulletin kit). I didn't need it all, but I wanted to start fresh/new and not go back in a third time. Cost does not include the tool. Good shifting is not cheap!
BK
Knock on wood, my shifter is still holding up just fine all these years later.
For anyone following this in the future, you can also google the updated 2009 Ducati "Service Bulletin SVC-09-021" as a pdf. It includes some details on installing the retrofit reinforcement plate, etc. The September version is more current.
This is also a great video showing the mechanism and it's adjustment:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbB0tPKarcA
BK