So I found a place that I love and is just a hair above my budget. I could rearrange my expenses and afford it, but would be house-poor for a couple years. The place was built in 1961 and not updated at all since 1976. I'd be on the hook for a new furnace, possibly water heater and the kitchen needs to be gutted and done over. I've factored all of that into my calculations. Of course I'll get an inspection if I decide to move to the next step, but I was wondering if there's anything you knowledgeable lot would recommend investigating before I drop a few bills to get a professional out to look it over.
To get the important stuff out of the way, two car garage and enough land for a dimby very near a national park. It's also the worst/cheapest house in the neighborhood. All the comps sold for well over $100,000 more, but they're normal houses and this is a weird mid-century modern that looks like the venture brothers compound. It's swank.
Quote from: redxblack on January 30, 2011, 08:20:36 PM
looks like the venture brothers compound. It's swank.
I'm sold. [thumbsup]
Wait, what was the question?
What's the insulation like?
Basement? Moisture?
How's the roof looking? Any dislocation or signs of moisture on the sheathing?
Location, location, location.
Don't buy into a place that's on the decline. Check realtytrac (http://www.realtytrac.com/home/)for the number of foreclosures in your area to make sure you aren't left holding the bag on a ghost town. Lots of foreclosures mean bad things for the future of your area. On the flip side, they can also mean a lower price.
Beyond that, you had me at "venture brothers compound" ;D
Check for cracks in the foundation/basement walls. Kiss of death.
If it hasn't been updated since the 70s, factor in about 50-100k in fixes.
We bought a house also built in '61. The prior owners were fat and stupid:
- Kitchen wasn't just outdated, it barely functioned.
- We removed 15 trees, one had a 18" limb over the house. We still have about 50 trees on the lot.
- Bathrooms dated, toilets ancient
- Wood Floors were in horrible shape
- originals single-pane double hung windows
- Stairs were ruined from hippo-sized asses going up and down (albeit s l o w l y)
- Yard was a mess
- NO insulation anywhere
- Asbestos tile in the basement.
I spent 3 months working on it before we moved in. Tore out the old kitchen, tore up the floors and stairs, ran new wires and gas piping, new bathrooms, etc.
Adding attic insulation and putting in new triple pane windows changed the house. THe first winter was awful -- ice on the windows on the INSIDE.
Inspections tend to be CRAP. If you can get a good reference for one (but NOT from your RE agent -- it's his cousin or buddy) it might be worth it. Ours was so-so. He found small problems with the plumbing and floors and found the asbestos tile.
All of that went into the negotiation.
But he MISSED the big make the beast with two backsING TREE on top of the house (we did too but we aren't inspectors) which cost us 6 grand to remove and missed the electrical problems in the house (bad wiring here and there).
Inspectors: YMMV
You need to do it yourself and get some friends who know more than you..
Same as the above plus:
* check the water pressure. Low pressure could cost you THOUSANDS as it did me. I ended up paying to repave the street because of old pipes that also had tree roots growing in them (plus the multiple costs involved to re-landscape AND the cost of new pipes to my house).
* insulation: reiterating this potential wallet eater. I had the same problems that 'Tini is going through.
Sounds like a really interesting place so if you're ok with giving up life outside of a house for a few years, go for it! Might be well worth it (or not). ;)
Another cautionary tale to add:
My inspector was a practicing, licensed electrician who missed *several* big electrical things, a couple of which I looked at and asked about and was told "yeah, not ideal, but not a big deal". Loose nomex running across the back of a couple cabinets in the kitchen for example - not even remotely up to code, I was informed by a competent electrician later. Another one was the meter in the back not being at eye level - this does not affect anything functionally, but it is an expensive fix I get to pay for.
Anyways, lesson learned. For my next home purchase, I would rely on an inspector for another set of eyes, hoping that they might notice something I didn't. And that's about it. As far as assessing cost, or how broken something is, I think your best bet would be to get someone who stands to profit if something breaks to give you the worst/most expensive case scenario. Get an AC guy to check out HVAC. Get a foundation guy for the basement/foundation, etc. Even if it costs you $100 in labor, it is money very well spent IMO.
Another thing to note - I got a home warranty when I closed. When I had an electrical problem, the warranty company would not cover it since the problem in question involved wiring that was out of code. So, don't count on a warranty being an umbrella policy, or generally being worth a shit for non-new homes.
Aside from that, take lots and lots and lots of time visually inspecting the place. You'll likely find something new every time. Put together a list of questions for your inspectors or contractors. I would talk to future neighbors whose homes were probably built by the same builder, ask about any weak spots, issues with drainage, soil stability, and previous owners. If you have any concerns about the foundation, PM me and I can probably give you my quick and dirty checklist.
Sound like a neat place - I hope it works out for you.. [thumbsup]
Great points, thanks! I really do appreciate the laundry list of things to look at. I knew home inspections weren't too valuable, but still necessary. I had no idea a warranty was so worthless, so thanks again!
The architecture is unique, to say the least. The house is built partially into the side of a hill, so one basement wall is a typical basement and the opposite is windows. I guess I should post a couple pics. There are some cracks in the basement wall, which is why I probably will pull out and run away. I'm guessing the drainage is improper and water is pushing the blocks. There's no water damage inside. The cracks are slight, but make me nervous.
(http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/4119/house6r.jpg)
(http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/8904/house4g.jpg)
(http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/3779/house3w.jpg)
(http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/6117/house2q.jpg)
(http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/3968/houseid.jpg)
(http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/3121/house5s.jpg)
Insulation will be a problem, I suspect. The old man who lives there is eccentric/odd. He keeps the place COLD and goes away during the winter (he's in FL right now). I can handle bat/spray foam myself, having some light construction experience. The windows (most of the house is windows) are double pane to create a greenhouse effect, but there aren't a lot of walls to insulate.
I can't tell if those pics posted or not as my workplace filters images. [bang]
edit: pics repaired.
Quote from: redxblack on January 31, 2011, 09:24:28 AM
I can't tell if those pics posted or not as my workplace filters images. [bang]
I'll derby when I get home if not.
Yeah, pics no worky
:(
lots of good stuff, so I will avoid repeating any of the excellent suggestions already.
check for mold........it's bad juju.
more specifically..........check with local authorities to make sure it never housed a grow-op
grow-op mold = really bad juju.
One thing I can be relatively sure of is that it was never a drug house. The architect lived in it (an architecture prof at a local university), and he sold it to a lit prof/author. I'd be the third owner. I tried to look for mold and didn't see any, but I didn't pull the walls apart, either.
The last pic is the back of the house. There's a cinder block addition that functions like a deck off the master bedroom. It's unfinished.
looks like Cameron's place from Ferris Beuller!
I like the mid living room Pizza Oven!
Looks like a neat place. [thumbsup]
Mold and moisture should be among the primary concerns.
A co-worker has moisture issues from hell that have cost him thousands....and he's nowhere near done. I'm talking having to run two dehumidifiers in the dead of MN winter to keep levels under 70%. (That's bad. REAL bad.) My theory is that the place is built on a reclaimed wetland....
Is there some type of meter to chech moisture levels?
Bummer. I just got a disclosure sheet from the real estate agent. That problematic back wall is more problematic than it seemed. It is a source of leaks, and part of it is leaning inward slightly. The drainage will need to be redug and replaced in all likelyhood. There's some structural integrity issues I don't want to deal with. Oh well. It's a cool place, but just too rich for my blood with all it'll need.
I read on here the best way to get a good deal is to be willing to walk away from a bad one.
Regardless, [thumbsup] for all the comments.
Quote from: redxblack on January 31, 2011, 06:36:04 PM
Bummer. I just got a disclosure sheet from the real estate agent. That problematic back wall is more problematic than it seemed. It is a source of leaks, and part of it is leaning inward slightly. The drainage will need to be redug and replaced in all likelyhood. There's some structural integrity issues I don't want to deal with. Oh well. It's a cool place, but just too rich for my blood with all it'll need.
I read on here the best way to get a good deal is to be willing to walk away from a bad one.
Regardless, [thumbsup] for all the comments.
[clap]
smart..
Quote from: redxblack on January 31, 2011, 06:36:04 PM
Bummer. I just got a disclosure sheet from the real estate agent. That problematic back wall is more problematic than it seemed. It is a source of leaks, and part of it is leaning inward slightly. The drainage will need to be redug and replaced in all likelyhood. There's some structural integrity issues I don't want to deal with. Oh well. It's a cool place, but just too rich for my blood with all it'll need.
I read on here the best way to get a good deal is to be willing to walk away from a bad one.
Regardless, [thumbsup] for all the comments.
Is the house being sold "As Is?"
If not, negotiate a sum that the seller is responsible for after sale. It's not unusual, or get estimates of the job and negotiate the price of the house down.
It's actually advantageous because you can get other work done at the same time and will end up being cheaper overall.
It's worth a shot. I'll make a couple calls today.
also worth thinking about...built in 61...you may have some lead paint or other lead abatement issues to contend with...
We just bought a house and got burned on easements on the property. The title search did not reveal the language of the easements and the limitations on our ownership. We should have spent time at the county court house looking the easements up.
I would not touch this with a ten foot barge pole.
You are money ahead finding something better. I see a money pit here. Never buy more house than you can afford.If you have a mortgage limit of $1000.00 per month then shoot for the mortgage that will cost you $850.00 per month and have a bit of wiggle room . You'll be glad you did.There are tons of options out there right now. When I bought one of my farms I spent a year looking.......Be patient, do your do diligence. Get a licensed inspector. If he misses something make them accountable. Anything with a disclosure such as a leak mold bad siding etc will have to be fixed beforehand.Most banks will not loan money if major repairs need to be done to make the place habitable. The rules have changed regarding banks since the melt down.
If necessary use an attorney to check over all of the paperwork beforehand. [thumbsup]
This place? I would walk away.my 02.
Quote from: redxblack on January 31, 2011, 06:36:04 PM
Bummer. I just got a disclosure sheet from the real estate agent. That problematic back wall is more problematic than it seemed. It is a source of leaks, and part of it is leaning inward slightly. The drainage will need to be redug and replaced in all likelyhood. There's some structural integrity issues I don't want to deal with. Oh well. It's a cool place, but just too rich for my blood with all it'll need.
Good move to pass IMO.
Leaks into a basement can be dealt with, but can also become a huge PIA. The leaning wall is a bigger issue. Sounds like it was under designed. Even without a functioning drain system it should have been designed to resist the water loads, which it sounds like it wasn't, because drains always have the potential to clog.
It does look like a cool house though, and the fact that the basement is a daylight basement makes the drainage problem a bit easier to deal with.
Don't let them frighten you -- get a structural engineer to look at it if you really like the house.
You would be surprised what a seller will do when faced with a signed estimate from an engineer.
Plus, once you do that, the seller is on notice that there is a major flaw in the house and can't sell it without informing any future would-be buyer.
We had a situation with our current house -- when we started renovating the kitchen (complete gutting) we also put in a picture window to replace the old double-hung fuglies on the back wall. When we took the old window out, the wood beam up top was water damaged. We took the drywall off and lo and behold, the roof had leaked into that area inside the wall and rotted the wood. It was BAD. But here is the CATCH: The previous owner had gotten the roof replaced -- the entire thing -- about a month before putting it on the market. We found out who did the work, called them up and sure enough -- they had spotted the rotting wood and told the previous owners who told them to STFU and don't worry about it.
Suffice to say, we threatened a lawsuit and they ended up settling with us to replace the entire back. Of course, that mean removing the entire wall and replacing everything -- which made installing the new windows, electrical lines, and new siding a lot cheaper.
My guess is that wall is being pushed by the hillside OR that the freeze line is high and they didn't account for the expansion in winter. Water + dirt + freezing = big dirt. You won't know until you have an engineer look at it.
Once you do, and the fault is identified, the seller is in a Catch-22. He can't knowingly sell it with a major fault especially when he knows the reason for it. No state allows a seller to sell a house with a known structural defect without telling a buyer. Period.
So he will be stuck trying to sell the house AS-IS which severely reduces the selling price.
Grab yer balls and go.
Quote from: ducatiz on February 01, 2011, 08:59:27 AM
My guess is that wall is being pushed by the hillside OR that the freeze line is high and they didn't account for the expansion in winter. Water + dirt + freezing = big dirt. You won't know until you have an engineer look at it.
From the sound of it the wall was designed for active earth pressures. It
should have been designed for at-rest earth pressures (higher) since cinder blocks are a rigid wall system and it is part of the house structure (as opposed to a retaining wall in the yard which can move a little to mobilize the lower active pressures).
In addition, it may not have been designed to account for any loading from water due to the drainage system. IMO the wall should also have been designed to resist water loads as draininage systems tend to clog over time.
One of those, or a combination of both, is most likely the problem. Getting an engineer (I'd recommend a geotech. engineer) is a good idea if he really wants the house. The fix won't be cheap, but if the owner will pay to sell the house, then sweet!
Quote from: Triple J on February 01, 2011, 09:12:32 AM
One of those, or a combination of both, is most likely the problem. Getting an engineer (I'd recommend a geotech. engineer) is a good idea if he really wants the house. The fix won't be cheap, but if the owner will pay to sell the house, then sweet!
My main point was that once the owner KNOWS of the problem, he is legally prohibited from selling the house without informing any potential buyer. It is a great negotiation point.
"OK, you don't want to bargain with me? Fine. I'll leave a copy of this engineer report with you so you can give it to potential buyers. You do know you're legally obligated to tell them about known defects, right?"
Agreed, that's a good move. [thumbsup]
This is a really good move.
I think it was designed fine and had appropriate drainage that likely got plugged for years. This guy did little to no maintenance at all in 35 years. Still, having an engineer confirm the issue could offset the cost of fixing the drainage and then some. When my wife gets home I'll fly it past her and see what she wants to do.
When I say it's over budget, I mean I won't be able to have cable tv or a gym membership for a couple years. I'm totally okay with those sacrifices as a trade-off.
Quote from: redxblack on February 01, 2011, 09:35:27 AM
I think it was designed fine and had appropriate drainage that likely got plugged for years.
If the wall is tilting it wasn't designed adequately. That doesn't necessarily mean the engineer/architect made a mistake, just that it sounds as if they chose to rely on a drainage system to lower the loads on the wall. That's an engineering judgement call, often made by the owner/builder since they're footing the bill...stronger walls cost more. Drainage systems eventually clog, and are rarely maintained...especially by a second owner. Of course, no one believes this when something is being designed and built and $$ is involved...or they feel they
will maintain the system, and it isn't their problem after they no longer own the house.
One other thing I'll add - we recently went through a cycle of considering moving from our smaller, higher per sq ft home closer to downtown to a nice McMansion out in the burbs close to the grandparents. We did the research, put in a few offers, but ultimately decided to stay put. In the process, I took a different tack in negotiating price than I did the first time we bought and I felt better about the ones that got away this time.
Come up with your own value, offer that, and walk away if they don't like it. The value in this case accounts for what you think it will cost to make the house right. It is really easy to get swept up in figuring out average price sq ft, comps, what you think the seller would take, what you think the seller would negotiate on fixes, minus a percentage factoring in negotiation, etc. "Market value" is the result of negotiations that occur on a transaction by transaction basis, and not (or am suggesting it shouldn't be) the other way around. The market doesn't know anything about individual houses, so don't be afraid to ignore it.
So stick to your own math. It is always painful walking away from a home you know you would like - but it is less so if you put together a reasonable offer based on what would work for you, and were turned down.