Ducati Monster Forum

instead of startron or stabil

the video in their marketing seems to solve the whole ethanol thing

http://www.phaser3000.com (http://www.phaser3000.com)

curious if anyone knows of this stuff?

Eastwood Company makes a product called Fuel Guard that treats the bad effects of E10 and recommends using it all the time you are using E10.

It was one of the new products written up in the March issue of Cycle World pg. 69.

8 ozs. treats 30 gallos of gas .

Use 1 oz. per 5 gallons of gas for Motorcycles.

We would get 8 fill ups per $8 bottle / $1 per fill up.....pretty reasonable .

Cost for the 8 oz. plastic bottle $7.99.

Dolph     :)

yeah, but do they sell it in lil 1oz vials?....if not, then you have to ride around with a lil 1.5oz measuing cup like what comes on a bottle of Robitussin or Nyquil and this 8oz bottle with you all the time for this very purpose...

zoom i agree that your method may be the best overall, but i only really use the ethanol products for the whole sitting and separation issue, me i thnk that as long as you put some in when you get home with almost a full tank then you are good,

now if you go on a long ride and have to fill up multiple times, i'm making the assumption that the fueld doesn't have time to separate out fast enough, so you woldn't need it in the 1 oz bottles.  even if you go on a week long trip you are going through fuel everyday practically, but then again i could be wrong about all this.

I may be wrong in this thinking ...but I always fill up before I go home from a ride, meaning I don't have more than 10 miles off a full tank.

So when I get home put an ounce in and have an ounce in an empty pill vial or find some other small plastic container to stick in my Lumbar pack for a fill up while on the road next time out.

Dolph     [moto]

I fill up not even a mile from my house after every long ride. When I get home I give the tank a splash of Sta-Bil. Most of the tanks on my scooters are 4-5 gallon capacity so I pour in 2-3 oz. and give them a good shake and fork bounce. Since I have more than one bike at least some of them are always sitting longer than others. I too am not worried about taking fuel additive with me on rides when I'm burning gas. Just the time they sit parked in the garage.

I need to check out that Fuel Guard product. I saw that write up in CW but haven't read it yet. I have bikes that sometimes sit for a long time locked up at my farm in the barn. My routine with them is if they haven't been ridden lately I syphon all the fuel and replace it with fresh premium gas/Sta-Bil mix and pour the old bike gas into my truck fuel tank. I'll do that every 3-4 months if they haven't been ridden and freshly refueled. 

Sounds like this ethanol problem is about to get worse. :P [bang]

Not to jack the thread, but since we are the topic, I just saw a video on Seafoam and it promises a lot, including fuel stabilization, what is the word form this community?

I tried it but for no negative reason regarding Seafoam I have remained with Sta-Bil. I know of some folks that swear by it but I have no tried and true stories to relate about it. Of course it's not like Sta-Bil has saved my life or anything either. I just tend to think the lack of problems I have had with sitting bikes is some sort of nonscientific proof to me that it helps.

I have two plastic tank Ducs and yes the have swelled some with Sta-Bil treated fuel but not very much compared to what I have read from others. Also, I have a carbed Kawi ZRX1200 and when it's been sitting for awhile (even with Sta-Bil in the tank) I still fire it up once every 7-10 days and let it idle to get up to operating temp in the garage just to get some fresh, treated fuel through the carbs.

I'm not sure anything is the magical silver bullet we all have been hoping for. Maybe the new Fuel Guard product is the next greatest thing since sliced bread. I just don't see things getting any better at all with pump gas in the future. Guess that leaves things looking good business wise for all the aftermarket fuel additive companies.

Sounds like snake oil.  According to the data sheet for that product:
"In this process, Phaser 3000 adheres itself to H2O molecules in the phase separated gasoline by breaking the “H” bond from the H2O molecule and adhering itself to that H2O molecule, thus returning the separated layers back into one mixture."

Too bad that's complete BS.   [laugh]

This is the magic ingredient:
2 – butoxyethanol

What does it do?  It is a solvent, more than that I do not know.  Any chemists out there?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2-Butoxyethanol (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2-Butoxyethanol)

I found a good read on the topic.

Phase Separation in Gasoline’s containing Ethanol is now a major problem for all users of gasoline.

Whether you use gasoline as a fleet operator or for your family car, classic car, boat, personal water-craft, motorcycle, snowmobile, ATV, RV, lawnmower, weed-whacker, generator, or any of the thousands of other types of equipment that use gasoline engines; you are being affected by Ethanol in your fuel.

Phase Separation describes what happens to gasoline containing Ethanol when water is present. When gasoline containing even small amounts of Ethanol comes in contact with water, either liquid or in the form of humidity; the Ethanol will pick-up and absorb some or all of that water. When it reaches a saturation point the Ethanol and water will Phase Separate, actually coming out of solution and forming two or three distinct layers in the tank.

Use the link below to see full article.
http://www.wellworthproducts.com/articles/phaseseparation.asp (http://www.wellworthproducts.com/articles/phaseseparation.asp)

Good explanation. Thanks for the post! [thumbsup] Like I said, this problem ain't going way! [bang]

The best way to minimize the issue, short of avoiding gasohol in the first place, is to keep your tank as full as possible to help keep water vapor from entering the tank as temperature changes cause the air to expand and contract; and to run through the fuel often enough to avoid phase separation and expel any water which does work its way in.  Honestly, though, you'd have to try really, really hard to get phase separation in a motorcycle fuel tank.  It's more a problem on boats where there's a lot more exposure to water.  Plus boats tend to have fuel tanks which don't respond well to the ethanol itself and break down entirely.

The water gets into the tank as vapor through the vent lines (or around the cap seal, if it's bad).  This is true even without ethanol in your fuel.  Without ethanol, however, the water simply settles to the bottom until it gets temporarily mixed back into the fuel from the movement of the bike while riding.  It gets sucked up by the fuel pump and harmlessly passed as part of your exhaust.  As such only the bottom of your tank would be exposed to water often.

With ethanol, however, conditions change a bit.  While ethanol isn't specifically hydrophilic, it is miscible with water, meaning that they mix well.  So the ethanol and water mix, and the ethanol keeps it suspended in the fuel until, as above, it gets sucked up and exhausted from the system.  In this case much more of the tank's interior surface comes into contact with the water.  Since the nylon used in the tank can absorb up to ~9% of its mass in water, this is a bad thing.

The other problem here is that in ethanol blends, the ethanol itself is depended upon to provide some of the octane rating.  So when you get so much water that the water/ethanol solution falls to the bottom of the tank (phase separates) the octane of the remaining gas drops.  But, again, you'd have to try really hard to get phase separation in a motorcycle.

Since riding often constantly cycles the fuel, and thus the water and ethanol, this should be more of an issue for bikes which sit for longer periods of time, especially in humid environments.

Wondering aloud here:  if one were to attach, say, a partiall-inflated bag securely to the vent line, it should minimize the amount of water vapor which works its way into the tank, while giving the air which is already in there room to expand and contract.  This might be a smart move for those who store their bikes for weeks or months at a time.

and more specifically, does it interact with Nylons/polyamides?

Ok, ...then what do you think would be the effects on a bike that has set ( counting this Winter ) 3 Winters for 4 months each Winter without Gasoline Stabilizer w, Ethanol 10% Gasoline , full tank ?

Dolph     :)

I obviously am much more concerned about my sitting bikes that are not ridden as often as others. Again, nice explanation Scissors! [thumbsup] I do try to keep my tanks filled to the brim with Sta-Bil treated fresh gas. With my plastic tank Ducs I have drained the fuel and have left them dry with the gas caps off the last couple of months. I have read that left in that state they will stop swelling and might return to their original form. We'll see. It's an experiment in the making. ;D Nothing worse than shitty gas and it seems that's what we have to look forward to. [bang]

It's easier than you think.  Fill and refill your tank without draining it empty and you end up with a small amount that remains at the bottom.

And this is precisely where the problems with the plastic tanks usually start.


Ethanol, like all alcohols, is very hydrophilic.  It happily wicks moisture from the air.


Yes and no.  The real problem is that gravity begins to act on the mixed ethanol/water immediately.  The fuel mixture begins to separate as soon as there is any small amount of water present.  It happens at a rate that is directly correlative to the amount of ambient moisture.


Part of the problem with the Ducati gas tank design is there is a small amount that is inaccessible to the pump.  As water-heavy ethanol drops, it collects there, then remixes with the next fresh fill of fuel -- each successive tank getting more and more saturated.  Unless you run thru several tanks quickly, you end up with a higher concentration of water present.



Yes, in general, however, you don't know how long the fuel has sat in the tank when you take it from the pump.


the tank will permit moisture even thru the filler which is not 100% airtight.

So is a good general policy to drain your tank every winter and leave it at that? It seems like nothing will ever solve this problem outright other than the manufacturers wising up and finally STOP using nylon for gas tanks or ethanol not being used in fuel any longer (yeah right).

Until there is a fix, which I don't know what it will look like (but something likely will come) draining your tank is the safest route if you don't plan to coat it.

If you have an un-deformed tank and can set it up to dry for a while, coating it is the best option to prevent that tank from deforming and eventually leaking.

I had a sport classic so I've been through this before, but recently sold it. Please forgive me for my ignorance, but:

What's the best way to drain the tank on an m1100 and

Do 1100s suffer from this same issue or has ducati finally done something?

Snipped this from the Wiki:

2-Butoxyethanol usually decomposes in the presence of air within a few days

Chemist-people.....what does it decompose into?

Ethylene Glycol Monobutyl Ether -- produces peroxides.

That doesn't seem like it would help.

But I'm not a chemist.

you mean help prevent phase separation?  it isn't doing that in solution.  i believe it is decreasing the relative SG of the ethanol/gasoline solution which lowers the tendency to separate.  a real chemist can explain that.

just store those bikes with some good ole CAM2 or other race fuel that has no corn squeezins in it!

Current-gen Monsters are also affected:

http://www.ducati.ms/forums/42-monster/104841-m696-tank-expansion.html (http://www.ducati.ms/forums/42-monster/104841-m696-tank-expansion.html)

Gas goes bad in two ways.  The first is that the components of gasoline which more readily evaporate do so, leaving behind a mix that isn't the same as how you bought it.  In an air-tight container this isn't as much of a problem as it is in a tank with vent lines.  However, no amount of stabilizer will prevent this.

What fuel stabilizer does do is address the second problem, which is oxidation.  The chemical makeup of the fuel changes as parts of it oxidize, which is what fuel stabilizer is designed to counteract.  Fuel stabilizer does not, however, do anything to stop the effects of either ethanol or water.

What would be the effect in the case you listed?  Depends.  Winter tend to be a dry time of year, so less water vapor works its way into the tank.  Personally I've stored gasoline with ethanol for five years straight and run it without any problems, but that was in an air-tight container.  As long as you're getting rid of the fuel and replacing it with fresh stuff once the weather gets warmer, you're likely good to go.

Drain or fill to full.  The former will give water no place to hide if it winds up in your tank, and the latter minimizes the expansion and contraction of air in the tank, which can bring additional moisture in.  Drained is best, but full is easier.  The worst thing you can do is leave it sitting partially filled.

Not precisely.  The act of filling your tank, as well as the act of riding over bumps, keeps things mixed up as your fuel pump draws from the tank.  Water doesn't act like a lead weight where it immediately settles to the bottom.  Water gets into all fuel tanks, whether you have ethanol or not.  It just tends to stick around better when you have ethanol.


Can, yes.  It did on mine.


That's not the definition of "hydrophilic."  A hydrophilic substance is any substance which is attracted to water; usually polar molecules, such as sugar.

It is miscible with water and, just like diesel fuel, hygroscopic.  Either way, it's a semantic argument.  The reality is that water mixes well with ethanol, though a true desiccant would prevent this.


This is incorrect.  Water does not dissolve readily in gasoline, and is more dense, so it settles to the bottom.  With ethanol present, however, the water forms a solution with the ethanol and remains in suspension until the volume of water is too great for the amount of ethanol present.  Once this happens then it phase separates and the ethanol/water mixture settles to the bottom.


Not really, and the math doesn't support your claim.  The only way for the amount of water to increase is for the system to pull less water out than works its way in.  Sorry, but mixed-up fuel/water in a tank that's jiggling up and down is going to evacuate that water far more quickly in the 2-3 hours you're on the road than will work its way back in via water vapor.  Not to mention the evaporative effect of heating that water.


That's why you go to gas stations which get a lot of traffic--so you know it gets regularly refreshed.  Additionally, underground fuel storage tanks have smaller vent lines in relation to their volume than your bike does..


"Airtight" is a relative term which can depend on the difference in pressure on both sides of the seal.  The very fact that people experience the sucking noise when they have a plugged/blocked/bent vent tube and they open their fuel tank proves its airtightness.  If it wasn't air tight, then air would have gotten past and equalized the pressure on both sides.  A properly functioning fuel cap seal is airtight at the air pressure differentials commonly experienced.

At 60 degrees fahrenheit a 10% ethanol blend can absorb up to 0.5% of its volume in water before it begins to phase separate.  That's just under four teaspoons of water per gallon of fuel, or just under a third of a cup of water in four gallons of fuel.

At 60 degrees fahrenheit "pure" gasoline can only absorb up to 0.02% of its volume in water.  Anything beyond that will phase separate.  So with regular gasoline you get phase separation earlier but, because it occurs earlier, you get a lot less of it sitting at the bottom of your tank when it happens.

As long as the water remains in solution with your fuel, there are no problems other than slighly lower fuel economy.  That is, if the fuel tank were made of a substance which doesn't absorb water (in our case, it also causes the tank to expand).

Water that's phase separated, on the other hand, can cause other issues.  With regular gasoline, at worst, it'll stall your engine if enough water gets sucked up by the pump.  Mixed with ethanol, however, the water/ethanol solution can combust, but will result in a very lean mixture, higher temps, and possible engine damage.

Here's an excellent paper about the subject:
http://www.epa.gov/oms/regs/fuels/rfg/waterphs.pdf (http://www.epa.gov/oms/regs/fuels/rfg/waterphs.pdf)

Interestingly, when they run the numbers regarding water vapor in the air, it shows just how hard it is for water vapor alone to induce phase separation.  This is what I mentioned earlier when I said that motorcycles, unlike boat, are highly unlikely to experience this.

The primary issue for us is not phase separation.  It is the ethanol enabling the fuel to hold more water in suspension than it otherwise would, and therefore allowing the fuel tank to operate as a desiccant and absorb that water.

Edit:  Side note:  longer vent tubes help to prevent water vapor (moisture in the air) from entering the tank in the first place.  Experienced divers are familiar with a concept called "dead space" which refers to the length of the tube between the lungs and the outside air.  The longer the tube, the less fresh air you draw in every time you breathe.

A third of a cup in my tank?  WTF!   Your info answered a lot of questions.  Thanks Scissors...... [clap]

That was extremely informative.

those are some great posts that explain a lot of it.  so we finally have a chemist on board now? scissors you a chemist? if so that is great.

I own a BMW cage and I got a notice from BMW noting that BMW sells a Fuel System Cleaner that has Techron Technology which will clean the entire fuel system , restores lost fuel economy, cleans and protects fuel gauge sensors and restores lost power and performance.

BMW Fuel System Cleaner Plus with Techron.

If it's good enough to put in my BMW car...it ought to be good enough to put in a motorcycle don't you think ?

Dolph       :)   

And make sure you only use Shell oil in your Ducati.

Techron II is good stuff, I wouldn't hesitate to use it in the Duc. However - whatever vehicle you use it in - use it a tankfull or two before an oil change - it's not the best thing to have floating around in your crankcase - you'll get some via blow-by.

I pretty much do :P













Because I get a discount on my credit card ;D

rotella counts right?

seevtsaab,

Are you saying to only use it in the last 2 tankfulls of gas before you have an oil change ?

Dolph    [moto]

Not as ed-u-micated on the charactersitics of oil wrt moto motor lube.
I speak from my accumilated wisdom wrt auto, particularly Saab Turbo's where oil quality is of
fairly critical importance, and oil is fairly well stressed. Fuel will contaminate your oil, and Techron is pretty harsh on oil. So it's recommended to use it within a couple tankfuls of an oilchange.
Some Saab guys are almost as anal as BMW guys about motor oil.
I haven't seen any evidence of severe degredation via used oil analysis, but, why take a chance?
i have seen boroscope pics of the excellent job TechIi does on carbon deposits, it's the real thing.

Being a Sta-Bil fuel treatment fan and needing to get another bottle I went to the nearby Pep Boys to stock up. This time I am trying Sta-Bil's Marine Formula/ethanol treatment instead of the regular kind. I was a little shocked initially when I saw the price was $29 for a quart! Regular Sta-Bil is like $12 something/quart. But when I read that a quart can treat 320 gallons it got me more interested. Even using double the standard Sta-Bil dose I would be using less additive for more protection. Right now I going with the double, long term dose of 2 oz./2.5 gallons. Basically 4 oz. in a bike gas tank. The Marine formula "double dose" is only 1 oz. per 5 gallons. And they say it has double the corrosion preventers and 4 times fuel system cleaners, plus it contains a non-alcohol water remover.

I'm going to give it a try. Can't hurt. Here's a page off of Gold Eagle Company's website with FAQ about Sta-Bil products:

http://www.goldeagle.com/brands/stabil/faq.aspx#marine_formula (http://www.goldeagle.com/brands/stabil/faq.aspx#marine_formula)

I've been using Sta-Bil's Marine Formula since October (i rode through the winter). Seems as though all's well. I'm not sure if it's overkill though since I only use pure premium gas. Im fortunate to have a station that sells gas sans ethanol 2 miles from work and on the way home.

Lucky for you. Wish I had that gas station near me!! As I've said before, I also use premium plus Sta-Bil and my two plastic tank Ducs have swollen a little but no where as bad as some I have read about. And I have been using the double shot of regular Sta-Bil. Hopefully the Marine Sta-Bil will provide even better results. I have several scooters and farm equipment (at my farm :P) that sits for a while. I need some help regardless of the ethanol and crummy gas. If the standard Sta-Bil has done well then hopefully the Marine type will be an improvement. [thumbsup]

With the effects of ethanol wicking up water would apply to the gas while its sitting in the tank underground at our favorite gas station. So how much water is in the gas as we're pumping it into our bikes and cars??? At $3+ per gallon, it kinda pisses me off thinking I'm not getting what I'm paying for.
So if this is true, keeping your tank full doesn't accomplish what we may think.

Read back through the thread. Somewhere in there it's stated that moisture in the underground tanks isn't that big an issue due to the size of their vent lines in relation to the size of the tank.