Ducati Monster Forum

I've been riding for many years, but just on the freeways.  This twisty stuff is new to me.  And a bunch of fun.  Except, I'm scared.  lol

I recently purchased a 2000 M900ie, and am having a REALLY good time.

My bike's throttle is such that trailing throttle is very difficult.  If I roll off just the slightest amount, the power falls off very rapidly.  Is this typical?

The throttle feels linear in "asking" for power, but the "bottom just drops out" when even slightly reducing the throttle.

Thanks, Danny

I am sure that any number of technical Monster people could deliver a concise answer as to why this happens.  My 2000 M750 performs exactly the same way - I think it is just inherent in the design and performance of some monsters.  Once you are used to it, that feature becomes like an extra set of brakes.

Exactly....

It's called engine braking and is one of the best features of an L-Twin.

If I'm not mistaken you're trying to back off the throttle mid corner and it's upsetting the bike and you.

More experience on it will teach you throttle control to master the beast.

Not trying to back off throttle as much as trying to modulate it.

I find that as I apply throttle exiting a corner, I sometimes apply too much, and then when trying to diminish it just a tiny bit, the "bottom falls out".  Or, if the next turn requires a little less speed (blind turn, off camber, etc.), I'm having the same issue - trying to diminish the throttle just a tiny bit.

I'm finding that I'm learning more/faster by going slower and trying to really understand what's happening. 

Thanks for the input.  Danny

Improper suspension settings exacerbate the sensation.

If your bike has stock suspension and you weigh more than 150ish pounds...

you need to post up in Tech or Mods about suggestions for suspension upgrades...

or you could do a search and find everything you need to know about what's been done before.

And you need to go slow before you can go fast.

Ducpainter is right. When I first got my monster I had the same problem. It seemed like the slightest reduction in throttle cut fuel completely. After a couple of weeks I mastered it. Now I can reduce/increase throttle with incredible precision. So be patient and keep practicing. It'll come.

Exactly, I didn't realize how much of an issue squishy was until after I corrected mine. 

another thing you could do is get a throttle tamer which changes the way the throttle comes on

+1 to all of the above. Another thing that helped me was to tighten the throttle cable [thumbsup]

Thanks guys

Weight might be an issue, as I weigh 225 or so in my riding gear.  I haven't looked into suspension adjustments (2000 M900 ie), but the bike feels very stiff.

Also, the tires are original (4500 miles on the 11 year old bike).  I have a new set of Pirelli Angels that I'll be mounting up.

Danny

At 225 in gear you need different springs at a minimum.

There isn't enough adjustment in the stock suspension to compensate for your weight.

The damping characteristics of the stock suspension are undersprung/overdamped which is why it feels stiff.

New tires aren't going to hurt, but they won't solve your real issue.

The sad fact is that there are two issues.  Both me.  Weight and skill. 

Life just isn't fair.  I should be skinny and skilled.  lol  And, rich wouldn't hurt either.

Danny

I should be younger. ;)

that was a concern I had with my 98 M900
I always felt it was possibly the gearing in the trans
because I never had that problem with my 95 900 SS

one thing I did notice , for what ever reason
the problem was greatly reduced after I adjusted my chain  [thumbsup]

woaahhhhh there, 11 year old tires? mount.tires.NOW.

yeah after i read that i knew at least one of you guys would say something

You should get the FI  checked just to make sure it's in the ballpark, and +whatever on the suspension.  That year Monster should have an Ohlins shock and adjustable Showa forks.  You can get that set-up pretty decently.

You're 225 lbs and the suspension feels stiff?  I may be mistaken, but unless somebody much heavier than you changed the springs, they come spring from the factory for a lighter person that you (so it should feel soft).  I would definitely have the suspension looked at, if you've got 11 y.o. tires, your suspension oil may be just as old and that would be a problem.

^^^ Won't feel soft if it's fully compressed

'specially with the way they're damped from the factory.  ;)

Be sure to clean and lube your chain every 500 miles.

I find that engine braking is a great form of braking .

I ride fast and as I approach a corner I have learned to judge how soon and in what gear to let off the throttle and the best gear for the maximum gear for the right amount of engine braking and have the right rpms so that I can exit the corner w, the speed I want.

All that comes w, practice.

I can ride a stretch of twitsty corners at between 60-85 mph simply by engine braking and down shifing one gear and then accelerating hard out of the exit of the corner .

Then as the road straightens , upshift one gear , then another corner and repeat the above.

Dolph     [moto]

Try a lower gear wth a higher engine rpm set prior to entering the corner..... rolling on the throttle smoothly after hitting the apex.

+1 on learning to be smooth on the throttle...

on my old sv650, the engine braking was more like a speed rheostat... it taught me to be super smooth with throttle transitions or else you would be jerking around everywhere.  compared to that, the monster is super smooth and easy with it's engine braking.

once you get used it, it'll make you an even better rider in general... above all else, being smooth on every control you have tends to be the best choice at all times.

My thoughts:

Modifications:
Suspension may feel hard because its not able to damp - its actually 'harsh' because you are way out of the springs range. At 225, I setup my suspension much firmer with stronger springs and now it is much more controllable and feels 'compliant'.

Maintenance:
Check chain tension.
Check throttle cable free play / tension.
Equip new tires. Tires on motorcycles wear out just as fast by simply aging as they do by wearing out (and flatspotting in the middle).
Rebuild/recharge shock - freshen up the oil in the forks - this allows those circuits to work as designed.

The riding techniques suggested above are great ideas to try out. The throttle shouldn't be getting closed during the turn lest you want to widen your line and upset your suspension - perhaps think of it as "as you approach the turn you are off the throttle slowing, begin turning the bike and its constant throttle, rolling on the gas as you exit"

perhaps the greatest suggestion is 'practice practice practice'

Totally off topic, but if the tires are 11 years old, I fear for the belts.
Change the belts, mon.

Enjoy your Monster, welcome to the club, be safe.

Thanks everyone.  Very good advice.

I have belts, tires, and brake/clutch fluid in hand.  Will be changing soon.  I changed the oil and cleaned/oiled/adjusted the clutch before I rode it.

By "trailing throttle", I meant reducing by around 10% or less. 

As I'm gaining experience with the bike, I'm cornering at much higher engine speeds and a couple gears down from when I first rode it.

I haven't pushed it at all in deference to the belts.  Been keeping it below 6000.  Tires are coming off tomorrow, and the other service - including belts - will be accomplished before it's ridden again.

Thanks again for the input.  Danny

I used to make alot of throttle oriented mistakes and luckily, I came out of it rather unscathed...what I have learned ( through class instruction at the track and on the street and otherwise) you are generally, either on the gas, or on the brakes...I'll elaborate and others can chime in...

generally due to how a bike squats and adjusts and rebounds...when you are entering a turn, you want to make sure all of your braking is done before you enter the turn so that you transistion the chassis back towards a rear bias of the machine for traction (among other reasons) and it should then be 1 smooth throttle input whether it be a singular gradual increase of throttle as you continue through the entire turn or a small input for to make the turn with a greater increase after the apex when you are comfortable enough to exit it and apply more...either way, chopping the throttle ( or trailing it as you are calling it-which I personally think is the wrong terminology) will release your traction bias of the chassis from the rear back towards the front where you have less of a contact patch and a greater  push of weight now on a portion of the bike that is much less stable...

if you are having an issue mid corner where you are feeling you have to chop or close or "trail" the throttle ( if even a little bit), you either didn't set your entry speed correctly going into the turn and you are too hot or you are scared of the limits of capability and second guessing things as they are happening....whether it be because of judgement or not looking fully through the turn or whatever the case...it seems to me that you should look into working slowly up to speed and get more comfortable as the dynamics of the situation could be very bad if they go awry and keep doing what you are doing...

Hello Zoom

Thanks. 

I'm comfortable in the first part of the turn, usually squeezing on a little power (due to being conservative) about half way between the turn in and the apex.

In thinking about what's been happening, I suspect that I'm getting on the throttle too hard after the apex.  No problem if the turns are close together, but if the road straightens out and I really "gas it", I feel as if I'll be carrying too much speed at the exit point.

The twisties in my neck of the woods seem be either off camber and/or decreasing radius.  More often than not, both.  lol

I've spent several rides working on max effort braking, and am getting more comfortable with the front brakes.  I adjusted the lever, which helped a lot.  Same deal with the throttle.  It's sensitive, but consistent.

Thanks again, Danny

There are three issues! (only two are you)

#3 is if the fuel/air ratio is too lean:  It will do this!

By "too lean", will that result in the exhaust smelling "rich"?

Have you read Keith Code's book Twist of the Wrist?

or this one:

http://www.amazon.com/Total-Control-Performance-Street-Techniques/dp/0760314039 (http://www.amazon.com/Total-Control-Performance-Street-Techniques/dp/0760314039)

i just got that book this winter and it's a pretty informative read... a lot of what you're saying you have issues with the book covers.  it makes me want to try out one of their clinics this coming spring or summer.

if you dont want to shell out the cash for the book, i think some libraries actually stock it so you might want to call around and see if they can get you a copy.

Thanks all

Rich - The bike has a set of pipes, and I've opened up the airbox lid.  It might be a little lean, but the plugs don't show it, and it doesn't detonate.  I'll be utilizing an Innovative A/F sensor as soon as it's back on the road.  I'm currently servicing it (tires, belts, valve clearance check, brake/clutch fluid, fork oil, etc.).

Does anyone tune with an Innovative?  If so, do you replace the bung to utilize a common thermocouple, or is there one available that fits the Ducati bung?  My bike is Alpha N.

Syscrush and thought.  I'm just finishing up two of Hough's books - Proficient Motorcycling and More Proficient Motorcycling.  Code's book is next, followed by Total Control.

Another thing I'll do is put a "tattle tale" on the fork tubes and see exactly what's going with compression. 

Thanks again, Danny

hey dan,

i weigh the same as you. throw a couple pennies aside every few weeks for some racetech fork springs and a new ohlins rear spring.


there's a books (total control, twist of the wrist 1 & 2, etc) that are good.... BUT reading and trying to do it isn't going to be as useful as getting out on the track with an instructor who can critique you or even record you so you can see your body position, etc.   Just throwing track days out there as something to consider. Most people assume its like racing, or believe that you will crash and both are wrong. Its "go as fast as you care" and no one makes you ride above your limit. You'll learn more at one of those events than you can in years of reading and trying to apply what you've read on a public road sans instructor.

I hope he listens to you on both counts.  [thumbsup]

seems like the best money i've spent on the bike are in that post. (and i gots lots into this bucket so far...)

One more for the track day.  You can't replicate what you'll get from a day at the track any other way.

The reason I started off saying to re-spring the bike is mine did the same exact thing if you got out of the throttle in a corner which is always a bad idea. I was getting back in to motos when I bought the Monster and was pretty rusty. If you got out of it fast/hard enough the thing would wallow like a pig in the mud. I was lucky and had a great shop and They did the forks, but didn't have the right spring for my weight. I did my first track day the next week. It totally transformed me and  the bike. Later I got a smoking deal on an Öhlins shock. I even had to beef up the spring on that and I'm under 200 in gear.

Not that I've modded my bike all that much except for the 'customization by crash', but suspension and trackdays have to be the best money I've spent also.

Its the greatest excuse!  "BUT HONEY, WHY REPLACE IT WITH THE SAME THING I BROKE WHEN I CRASHED WHEN I CAN UPGRADE IT!...and maybe not crash again...."

Books, trackdays, new suspension, new chain, new tires, new belts (?!?)--all good ideas, but assuming you don't have some gross mechanical problem, it sounds like you just need to get the bike figured out and be smooth on the controls. 

I think you will feel 1000% more comfortable with new tires. I would think yours have a pretty substantial flat spot, and that will mess up any corner.

I do agree with all the other points made.

Thanks everyone

I feel that I'm getting some VERY GOOD advice.  I've ridden the bike about 600 miles and am starting to get comfortable with/on it.  It's a surprisingly nice touring bike, which I hadn't expected.  I have zero problem riding it for a tankful, gassing up and walking around for 10 minutes or so and doing another tank.  Whoda thunk?

I've been researching track instruction, but haven't come up with anything yet.  I live a little over an hour from Thunderhill (a race track in Willows, Ca), and I'm going to give them a call in the near future.

Thanks again, Danny

I'll suggest a proper school before an open trackday.  Code has done schools at Thunder Hill, I believe, although there are none showing on the current schedule.

2011 Dates (http://www.superbikeschool.com/schedule/)

i think a good track program will provide instruction and instructors. not to downplay the benefits of a school, but if one is unavailable, don't forego the track!