I got my first physics II exam back today. I didn't do as well as I would have liked due to a stupid mistake, but I can live with that. There are 3 more exams, and an 85 isn't exactly a death sentence yet. It is however the lowest grade I have gotten over the last two years so I was pretty bummed.
Here is the dilemma - During our lab session I found out that half of the class cheated. I was talking to my partner about the exam and how much time it took me to memorize the 10 or so formulas we needed to know. She laughed and nonchalantly mentioned that half of the class just programed all of the formulas into their graphing calculators so there was nothing to memorize. She also mentioned that because she didn't have a graphing calc that she just wrote all of the formulas on the inside of the calculator case. The look of suprise on my face threw her for a curve, and she adamantly defended that this wasn't cheating.
My issue - all of the tests are curved. Because the avg was 74, there was no curve. If they didn't cheat the avg would have been much lower and my 85 would have been an A. Yes, I could have gotten an A on my own accord and plan on doing so on future tests, but a level playing field would be nice. It just pisses me off that so many people cheated.
I would never name drop because I don't want to get people in trouble, but do I vaguely mention it to the professor for the next exam?
You could test the waters with something like "So I'd heard somebody say that they'd programmed the formulas into their calculators." and see how he reacted. Has it been explicitly said that this is a no-no?
I dunno... I don't really see any attempt to "remedy" this ending well. :P
My wife and I come from the criminal defense world, we worked at the local county criminal courthouse. The details don't matter. We dealt with liars, thieves and cheaters all day long, every day. And no I'm not specifically talking about the attorneys! [laugh] We were both raised the same way and she's 15 years younger than me. You don't lie or cheat. Call it old school if you want but isn't that the way it supposed to be? Who wants to argue that one with me? What? It's OK to lie and cheat? Does getting "ahead" or scoring better via cheating make you a better person? I'm no saint, but the moral corruption of this country will eventually be it's undoing. No bible thumping morality speech here, it's just basic kindergarten stuff. Treat people nice, don't steal, don't lie and don't cheat. What the hell is wrong with that? I'd rat out the cheaters in a make the beast with two backsing heartbeat. [thumbsup] Those are the ethics I live by. OK, I'm off the soap box. Next?
Personally, I'd let karma work it out.
And, unless you're planning on post-grad at Hopkins or Stanford, I wouldn't sweat a solitary 85 too much.
For what it's worth, I wasn't addressing the morality of the situation. I'm just saying that from a pragmatic standpoint, I don't see trying to fight it as ending well.
Cheaters boo! [thumbsdown] I agree with oldfastwin. I would also like to add that since you are directly affected by their actions, this is your problem. Ironically, the "right thing" to do in this case is to achieve that level playing field. I have no doubt that you will do it the hard way. And that deserves a big [thumbsup]
Quote from: zarn02 on February 15, 2011, 08:40:18 PM
You could test the waters with something like "So I'd heard somebody say that they'd programmed the formulas into their calculators." and see how he reacted. Has it been explicitly said that this is a no-no?
I dunno... I don't really see any attempt to "remedy" this ending well. :P
+1
Been in your shoes with a Quantum Mechanics class (is physics II optics, electromagnetism, and waves?)
Didnt know the whole class cheated. The book itself apparently had an answer key. The class was super tough and no one had a clue on what was going on since he didnt give out answers, and his in class examples sucked. The kids somehow got a hold of it and it was circulated. Everyone in there was an EE or Physics major ( im a civil major) so i wasnt freinds with any of them.
Bottom line is, everyone in the class passed with B's even though in class I was the ONLY one participating and answering the professors question. I thought i was an idiot for having to work so hard for a B, but these kids somehow managed to completely get it and get the same grade, yet they coudlnt answer a single concept question, let alone a math one.
I kept my mouth shut. Because in the end, you go to school to learn. Not for a grade. And nobody likes a rat. If they want to cheat and get by, let them. They only end up hurting themselves in the long run. If there is a curve, well. None of my classes have a curve except my useless electives so i cant say much about that.
HOWEVER, after last semester, I failed my first engineering class and i couldnt register for the class again because it was full and over tallied, i learned that some kids in my class who were absolute make the beast with two backsing idiots that couldn't figure out the difference btween a torque and a moment, failed and got back into the class. Reason? They got "hooked up".
Moral of the story is, if your school is anything like mine, overcrowded with retards that constantly get by through copying, slacking on team work, and cheating, then you need to do what you need to do to make sure you stay ahead of the game.
But as far as programming the equations into the calculator. I dont consider that cheating. Equations dont tell you anything. You still need to conceptually understand whats going on and how to apply the numbers and interpret them. Most of the time, i work out so many problems that the equations are second nature and i remember them cause its always the first thing i write down whenever i solve any problem. ANd if the professor didnt want you to use a program to solve the problem, then he would just make everyone use regular calculators.
a bit of a rant, but im taking 1 class right now because some very undeserving kids got into a class that i coudlnt get into. I ended up nailing the final hard and did very well on it, but didnt rack enough points to pass, but I learned and retained everything bout that class, so the 2nd time i take it will be a breeze. good luck in school. and dont get stabbed. ;D
I wouldn't call it cheating, but that's just me. I did the same thing back when I was going through High School and College. But if you've got a problem with it, double check with the prof like zarn02 mentioned.
For my wife, who is going through college right now for a BS in Nutritional Sciences, all her tests are open-book, with the entire department feeling that "in the real world, you'll either use these formulas so often you memorized them by heart, or so infrequently that you always look them up every time."
i always found open book tests harder.
Either you know it enough to not need the book except to verify your answer or you suck so much all you do is flip through the book and waste time. Rarely is there a middle ground.
Quote from: Timmy Tucker on February 15, 2011, 08:51:05 PM
And, unless you're planning on post-grad at Hopkins or Stanford, I wouldn't sweat a solitary 85 too much.
I'm doing pos-bacc work to apply to med school, 85 isn't going to cut it.
Quote from: He Man on February 15, 2011, 09:07:48 PM
Been in your shoes with a Quantum Mechanics class (is physics II optics, electromagnetism, and waves?) yup, and thermodynamics
Quote from: He Man on February 15, 2011, 09:07:48 PM
I kept my mouth shut. Because in the end, you go to school to learn. Not for a grade. And nobody likes a rat. If they want to cheat and get by, let them. They only end up hurting themselves in the long run. If there is a curve, well. None of my classes have a curve except my useless electives so i cant say much about that.
That is my dilemma. I don't want to be
that guy, but at the same time I care about MY grades and don't give a crap if they fail.
Quote from: He Man on February 15, 2011, 09:07:48 PM
Moral of the story is, if your school is anything like mine, overcrowded with retards that constantly get by through copying, slacking on team work, and cheating, then you need to do what you need to do to make sure you stay ahead of the game.
It's a wonderful state school of NJ... you are spot on.
Quote from: He Man on February 15, 2011, 09:07:48 PM
But as far as programming the equations into the calculator. I dont consider that cheating. Equations dont tell you anything. You still need to conceptually understand whats going on and how to apply the numbers and interpret them. Most of the time, i work out so many problems that the equations are second nature and i remember them cause its always the first thing i write down whenever i solve any problem. ANd if the professor didnt want you to use a program to solve the problem, then he would just make everyone use regular calculators.
The week before the exam the same girl who informed me of the shennanigans asked the prof if he was going to give us the formulas. His answer was "no, you will have to memorize them"
Quote from: He Man on February 15, 2011, 09:07:48 PM
good luck in school. and dont get stabbed. ;D
Thanks! I am not even joking when I tell you that it has been a concern...
Quote from: He Man on February 15, 2011, 09:07:48 PM
But as far as programming the equations into the calculator. I dont consider that cheating. Equations dont tell you anything. You still need to conceptually understand whats going on and how to apply the numbers and interpret them. Most of the time, i work out so many problems that the equations are second nature and i remember them cause its always the first thing i write down whenever i solve any problem.
That is my strategy as well. Identify the question and write out all the formulas you need. He does give partial credit if you write the formula... By saving it in their calc, they can get points and have NO IDEA what the question is asking.
Quote from: Vindingo on February 15, 2011, 09:34:38 PM
I'm doing pos-bacc work to apply to med school, 85 isn't going to cut it.
Hence my inclusion of Hopkins. I'm a 35 year old freshman pre-med. I feel your pain.
I dont think the professor really cares. Im sure he knows that you can program those things. Its not worth fighting, however if the professor is worth his own salt..... if u bring it up, he might tell everyone to bring a regular calculator next time and then it will be fair game if you studied your material and understand it well. I think that would benefit you the most.
Partial credit for writing down formulas? Thats pretty awesome! Though chances are, if those people are in that situation, they're not passing the test anyway.
Quote from: Timmy Tucker on February 15, 2011, 09:50:54 PM
I'm a 35 year old freshman pre-med. I feel your pain.
Hell yea dude! kick some ass and take names [beer]
If the prof didn't want you to be able to program the formulas into your calculator, he wouldn't let you use a graphing calculator that is capable of storing the formulas. A cheat sheet inside your calculator cover is slightly different because you're not using a built in function of the calculator. I'm sure by now every teacher knows that people program formulas into their calculators. But, having all the equations isn't the whole answer. If you don't know how to use them you're shit outa luck.
I dunno, maybe I think this way because that's how it was when I was in high school and college too. There's a reason why all the licensing tests in CA prohibit calculators that can be programmed to store information.
People ain't gonna be happy if you screw the curve even if it's based on morals. Not everyone's morals are the same. The ones that "cheated" obviously don't feel like they were cheating or don't care or they wouldn't have done it. The problem with ratting everyone out is that you can't prove who was cheating since you didn't see anyone specifically doing it. The next problem arises when or if you ever need to work with any of these people later. If you do anything, do it in the privacy of the prof's office hours.
If your grade had not been affected, I would let it go and side with the "they are just cheating themselves" philosophy. Unfortunately, it turns out they cheated you. You need to inform the professor in private. He probably needs to throw out the test and be more restrictive on future tests.
The only hiccup is..is the girl that told you this accurate? All you can really show is that she cheated. Her, "half the class" comment proves nothing and may have been said just to make herself feel better for being a cheater.
Quote from: Vindingo on February 15, 2011, 08:33:22 PM
My issue - all of the tests are curved. Because the avg was 74, there was no curve.
sounds like the lack of a curve allowed you to honestly assess what you know
Quote from: Mother on February 15, 2011, 11:57:32 PM
sounds like the lack of a curve allowed you to honestly assess what you know
Out of carelessness I skiped an entire section of a question -10pts. If I reread the test more carefully, I wouldn't have missed the question to which I knew the answer.
So yes, I know to check my work and to STFD, but I also know that the class (same group of kids) avg last semester was usually a 60.
I see the curve as a cushion and not a crutch. This is the first time there was no curve, and also the first time I would have liked to take advantage of it. I'm over it.
After sleeping on it, I have decided not to say anything to the professor. I will mention it to the other students who did not use their graphing calculators and see how they feel.
rat them out...... I would not want a doctor working on me who needed a cheat sheet
My own personal opinion is this........never ever ever lie, cheat or steal. Always stand tall to what you believe in and if it gets tough for you then so be it.I would talk with the professor and let him/her know what you know.
Might be a long shot, but you may go to your professor and talk about the section of the test that you missed, offer to solve it then and there in front of him. If he talks about how changing your score would be unfair, then you bring up the fact that (and you will not name names) people programmed the formulas into their calculators, that you are doing this the right way, etc.
If he leaves the door open for people to cheat then it would seem foolish for him to have problems being flexible on scoring for someone who abides by the rules and made a mistake.
not to bash you, but....you are whining that life isn't fair.
the fact is either the teacher knows you can program the calculators and at that point is tacitly agreeing to let you program them or completely clueless in the 21st century that these things can do it and should know better than to let the calc in. sorry but part of his job is to be somewhat in touch with how people can or may cheat, him saying "i didn't know" is him being a crappy teacher, maybe a great researcher but a bad teacher.
that being said if he knew about it, then he can just say, no calculators or only simple calculators no programming allowed, simple as that. rules are rules.
sure you studied hard, that is good, but like others say you go to learn, if you worry about the grades (and they matter to an extent) then you can either still study and not put the formulas in the calulator and do your best and maybe beat the others or you can go along with the crowd and beat them at the game. which decision you make is what you will have to live with.
if what you are mad about is that you didn't program the calculator well consider this a life lesson, the world is not "fair or honest" 100% of the time. what they are doing is not cheating since it was not explicity said that you can't do it (unless the teacher said no programming of calculators, that i missed, then they are cheating), that is life that is exactly how a business will treat an action that they can't be prosecuted for. even the attorney here will tell you he can't prosecut you for something that is not against the law.
Nobody likes a rat, just like others say, and even honest people hate rats because they know that when they may stray from time to time from the line they don't want a rat to rat them out because what they did may have been for a "good reason" but its still breaking the rules and they know they don't want to be ratted out.
good luck with wiathever you decide.
Quote from: He Man on February 15, 2011, 09:07:48 PM
HOWEVER, after last semester, I failed my first engineering class and i couldnt register for the class again because it was full and over tallied, i learned that some kids in my class who were absolute make the beast with two backsing idiots that couldn't figure out the difference btween a torque and a moment, failed and got back into the class. Reason? They got "hooked up".
moral of this story is simple that heman missed. its that being "hooked up" matters just as much in school as in the real world. come on we all know that getting the "hook up" or a "favor" from someone is real and alive in the real world. it matters.
school is a mirror image of the real world not a utopia of the real world, because you have people living in the real world teaching it and studying in it.
As a teacher, I'd want to know if people are cheating on my tests. I'd talk to the prof during office hours. Let him or her know you're not there to grade grovel, but that you're concerned that a course with a curve is being subverted by dishonesty, and the integrity of the course is important to you as a student.
It would be AWESOME if for the next exam, the prof brought a box of simple calculators and told students to clear all materials but a pen, a blue book and to take one of the department calculators.
In short, I'd snitch. Not to better myself, but to differentiate myself from the geniuses that view school as a game instead of a place to hone skills and learn.
Quote from: bobspapa on February 16, 2011, 07:46:11 AM
rat them out...... I would not want a doctor working on me who needed a cheat sheet
+1
Quote from: sbrguy on February 16, 2011, 09:09:26 AM
moral of this story is simple that heman missed. its that being "hooked up" matters just as much in school as in the real world. come on we all know that getting the "hook up" or a "favor" from someone is real and alive in the real world. it matters.
school is a mirror image of the real world not a utopia of the real world, because you have people living in the real world teaching it and studying in it.
isn't being "hooked up" now just simply called "Networking"????...
I work in the wonderful world of academia at a major private university. Academic dishonesty is something we have to deal with from time to time and it's a touchy subject. There are appropriate ways to deal with cheating but many professors chose not to deal with these issues because anymore, you have to have concrete proof and sometimes that isn't enough. There are those students that will cheat and if caught and reprimanded, will simply have their parents raise hell, keeping the punishment to a minimum. This part of the system is broken.
I wouldn't bother bringing it up to the professor as they will likely not be able to do anything about it. Additionally, realizing that "good" grades are important for students to maintain scholarships as well as gain entrance into grad/law/med school, the grades are otherwise unimportant. My advice would be to ignore the people who are cheating and just concentrate on learning the material.
Quote from: Vindingo on February 16, 2011, 05:34:01 AM
Out of carelessness I skiped an entire section of a question -10pts. If I reread the test more carefully, I wouldn't have missed the question to which I knew the answer.
well
that is just damn frustrating
I had an instructor tell me one time that what they did is not cheating
because
"a true professional knows where to get the information if they don't know the information"
or some such bullshit
Quote from: Mother on February 16, 2011, 10:24:18 AM
well
that is just damn frustrating
I had an instructor tell me one time that what they did is not cheating
because
"a true professional knows where to get the information if they don't know the information"
or some such bullshit
[laugh] that is a good line!
I doubt teachers in China or India use that line though... where do all of our doctors and engineers come from? [bang]
Quote from: Mother on February 16, 2011, 10:24:18 AM
well
that is just damn frustrating
I had an instructor tell me one time that what they did is not cheating
because
"a true professional knows where to get the information if they don't know the information"
or some such bullshit
I agree with "a true professional knows where to get the information if they don't know the information" but, in that case, the instructor should either supply the formulas or give an open book case. If not, the student is indeed cheating.
Quote from: sbrguy on February 16, 2011, 08:56:41 AM
(unless the teacher said no programming of calculators, that i missed, then they are cheating)
Quote from: Vindingo on February 15, 2011, 09:34:38 PM
The week before the exam the same girl who informed me of the shennanigans asked the prof if he was going to give us the formulas. His answer was "no, you will have to memorize them"
I guess "no, you will have to memorize them" can be left up for interpretation.
Memorize Remember to write them in ones calculator case, or program them in...
While I have decided not to say anything, nor use anything other than my brain and lowly Ti-30, I'd like to argue your point.
Quote from: sbrguy on February 16, 2011, 08:56:41 AM
not to bash you, but....you are whining that life isn't fair.
Nobody likes a rat, just like others say, and even honest people hate rats because they know that when they may stray from time to time from the line they don't want a rat to rat them out because what they did may have been for a "good reason" but its still breaking the rules and they know they don't want to be ratted out.
We can agree that life isn't fair. I learned that a long time ago when I wasn't drafted to play shortstop for the Yankees.
Wouldn't it be unfair if I rained on their parade and made it so they had to use regular old calculators? Its almost as if by doing so I would be in harmony with the unfair universe. If we are talking about the real world here where it is a
rat race, why not set the advantage to my favor by any means necessary? Seems as if you are only calling for "fairness" if one has broken the "rules"
In highschool I was suspended for 2 weeks for not ratting out my friends for stealing shit. (Catholic school honour code nonsense) If I could go back, I still wouldn't say a word. These people, however are not my friends. I also disagree with your "honest people hate rats" example. I one was honest, they wouldn't have anything to worry about. Semantics... I know, but I bet thieves don't hate police officers until they get caught. And, I'm sure police officers don't care if they were stealing crap to sell and buy food for their 3 kids.
If you were a professional working in the field, would you depend on your memory for the formulas or would you look them up to be absolutely sure?
Quote from: okpanic on February 16, 2011, 11:30:18 AM
If you were a professional working in the field, would you depend on your memory for the formulas or would you look them up to be absolutely sure?
both, sometimes you use it so much you memorize it better than then your left hand knows your balls. other times its like going lefty and you're not sure, but it seems right, but you have to check.
was that too far?? :P
If asked, tell the prof what you know, but otherwise let it go. I knew people in grad school that blatantly plagiarized their papers and they even had professors intervene on their behalf when it came time to interview for jobs. It still makes me angry, but I'd never rat them at since at the end of the day I am only in competition with myself and bringing someone else down to elevate me doesn't actually make me any better.
For some reason this thought popped into my head. I am actually quite upset right now over this.
People who get ahead without putting the effort really screw those who do. I am taking 1 class right now because of little bullshit nonsenses like that. I could of registered early if I had spoken to the registrars office and played nice with the person who registers us and ogtten in. But i took the "high" road by doing it in the manner in which it was designed. Yet I sit here punished today and unable to take a full course load.
I am desperate to graduate. I've had so many problems with registering in the past 3 years ive been in college. This is the 3rd time ive been screwed like this, but this time was the wort and the best.
So truth be told. make the beast with two backs everyone. When it comes to academics, I really dont care about anyone else because the 2nd thing on your list is to get thorugh the system, and thats really all it is. Here i am sitting taking ONE class because I was too stuck up to get my own hookup. Wasting another year of my life. :\
1) Your teacher's a fool for making folks memorize the formulas. The whole reason mankind invented writing is so we didn't have to memorize everything. A real test shouldn't involve memorizing the formula, it should involve proving you know what the formula means
2) Your fellow students screwed you. You should screw them back.
make the beast with two backs the curve.....an 85 is still a B. Get them back on the next one by knowing your shit inside and out and walk tall knowing you scored a straight 100.
My humble $.02.
Quote from: Drunken Monkey on February 16, 2011, 05:15:20 PM
1) Your teacher's a fool for making folks memorize the formulas. The whole reason mankind invented writing is so we didn't have to memorize everything. A real test shouldn't involve memorizing the formula, it should involve proving you know what the formula means
2) Your fellow students screwed you. You should screw them back.
Apparently you live in the same world I was raised in. I'd still bust their chops if the teacher is that clueless as to their test cheating hi-jinx and they actually give a shit. I'm all about a level playing field. If I have to step it up to another level to play with others then so be it. I can do that. But I will not stoop to cheating whether it's hidden notes or shit programed in to my calculator. If your teacher is fine with their actions and doesn't care what the students do then I'd kick the shit out of them in their nuts (if they have any [bang]). Because hey, if you don't give a shit about your students cheating on your tests then you shouldn't hold it against me either for kicking you in the nads and me honestly studying my ass off for your test and not cheating!
I just wouldn't take a class from some loser that would let their students cheat. But then again you may have not had a choice. I loved and respected my ex-mother in law. She was a professor emeritus at the University of Texas at Arlington, TX. She would have been all over this thread. She was a great teacher and lady and all of her students became personal friends. Some going back 20+ years. Her standards would have never permitted cheating in her post grad classes and she would expect her students to rat out the cheaters. End of story for me. When she said it was Christmas hang up your stockings! [thumbsup] [clap]
just work harder next time. you'll know when you get that peice of paper in a few years that you did it the right way.
I say turn them in. They are hurting you, cheaters passing hurts their respective professions since they don't have the skills they should have acquired, and it lowers the overall quality of our graduates if students make it through by cheating. Think of it as your duty.
A couple more comments. As a biologist I had to memorize a ton of crab to get BS degree. I was very bad at it and it was a huge struggle. Fortunately, in graduate school I was expected to think rather than memorize so I did much better and got more out of it. I've been working in my field for decades now and I hardly remember any of that stuff I had to memorize. If I need a scientific name (or something else I forgot) I look it up; however I still think and come up with ideas all the time. Why you have to memorize formulas is beyond me. It seems to me, to be an archaic way to teach.
If your doing pre-med, why are you doing a physics class? Would you be better off with bio and bio-chemistry, genetics, etc.?
Best to Ya! [thumbsup] The world needs all the non-cheating doctors it can get [clap] [clap]
Quote from: akmnstr on February 17, 2011, 10:38:05 AM
If your doing pre-med, why are you doing a physics class? Would you be better off with bio and bio-chemistry, genetics, etc.?
two semesters of physics is a prerequisite at most schools, and it is a section on the MCATs. neither bio-chem or genetics are required.
Vin,
I think you should ask your Prof what he/she would think if they knew that some of their students programmed the Formulas into their Calcs. and took them to the exam ?
Then depending on what the Prof says go from there.
I would let the Prof know that I ( you ) feel it was cheating and the world doesn't need more cheaters !
That's why we are in the mess we are in now and for the past couple of years . ( Mortgage debacle, Wall Street / Hedge Fund misbehavior / Bernie Madoff Ponzi Scheme etc...........
Dolph :)
Quote from: Vindingo on February 17, 2011, 09:06:01 PM
two semesters of physics is a prerequisite at most schools, and it is a section on the MCATs. neither bio-chem or genetics are required.
Well, that makes perfect sense ??? ???