Well, the 1999 M900 fixxer-upper (perhaps M900fu for short) is getting to the point where there's only a few odds and ends left to tie up.
One is belts and valves. It came with the W-stamped heads. From the project parts shelves/pile-o-parts, I have the V-heads from the 02 900 ie (SS). I see several benefits in doing the heads swap: the bigger valves and the better IE cams. Additionally, since these heads are just sitting on the bench, I figure I will be able to do the valve shim adjustments (as necessary) much more easily, install the lightweight pulleys, and get ready to swap them onto the bike.
Here's my short list of supplies I'll need in preparation:
Valve Cover Gaskets
Shims
Cam End Gaskets (Cam ends were off of V-series heads)
Pulley nuts
Intake manifold Gaskets
Exhaust Manifold Gaskets
Belts
O-Rings that seal oil passages from cylinder to head
(The dowels that 'locate' the cylinders should not need replacing, do they?)
Putting CA-Cycleworks coils with new plugs and wires on as it goes back together as well
Plan:
Do the valves, seal up the v-heads, nurse a beer.
Remove intake manifolds, exhaust manifolds, belt covers and belts from Engine with W-series heads
Remove W-series heads
Replace oil-passage sealing O-rings and install v-series heads, torque nuts, drink beer.
Replace Intake manifolds with new gaskets
Replace Exhaust manifolds with new gaskets
Install Belts and Set Timing, Quadruple check work, nurse beer
Reinstall carbs, airbox, coils, plugs & wires
Remaining to do, I think, would be fiddle with carb jetting I suppose. Celebrate with beer cocktail of sorts, or maybe starting the bike for the first time.
Please throw out some ideas, correct omissions, do a spec of criticism and make suggestions!
Don't say the JE drop-in 92mm high comp 900 pistons, because I am going to do that much later on this beast. Step #1 is getting it to run.
I'd be prepared to degree the cams. Stuart and I did one of these swaps last fall and the cams in the new "V" heads were so far out of time from those in the old "W" heads that the darned thing would barely run! It would idle, but wouldn't build revs. Frikkin' junk-azz Monsters! ;D
Haha. Definitely going to degree cams as I will be putting on new lightweight adjustable vee two pulleys as well.
I am considering putting the MBP collets in that I have. It was for the motor that's getting the 'race cams' and short manifold split singles, but the bonus in reliability would be pretty cool - the grocery getter could be the bike with the motor that requires less maintenance... Decisions decisions.
I've got a box of parts that was for the 'project'. Most of it I don't think will be getting used for this bike, which I intend to be a grocery getter setup (has 98-99 era round headlight fairing, keeping it with standard riser-mount handlebars). The Jako Motorsport short intake manifolds are still on the shelf until I get split singles for the other Monster or I acquire an SS. The VeeTwo race cams for the 900 and the VeeTwo "high-torque" cams are still on the shelf as well.
Besides degreeing the cams, what else might come up?
With standard cylinder studs equipped, good idea/bad idea to investigate thinner base gaskets to raise compression slightly?
I may get the local "stu" to help with this (Stuart Rust, former AMS guru, current guru's step-pappy [jordan])
Check/lap valves on new heads.
Ditch base gasket after checking squish & valve clearance. Gives +0.4-0.5 comp if gasket is 0.40 mm.
Nurse beer after important measuring....
Quote from: greenmonster on February 22, 2011, 04:29:18 PM
Check/lap valves on new heads.
Ditch base gasket after checking squish & valve clearance. Gives +0.4-0.5 comp if gasket is 0.40 mm.
No base gasket altogether?
no external oil lines so no alt cover holes to plug.
Quote from: greenmonster on February 22, 2011, 04:29:18 PM
Nurse beer after important measuring....
Roger that.
Quote from: a m on February 22, 2011, 04:42:45 PM
No base gasket altogether?
no external oil lines so no alt cover holes to plug.
Roger that.
The cylinder will seal just fine to the case without the gasket.
The 'squish' and valve clearance part are the important variables. ;)
good to know.
i've read the tech article from Chris K on DucatiTech about setting squish. Think I'm going to let one with more experience do that - seems like its straightforward but someone who has done it before should would make a good in-person teacher.
No gasket on any of my 2 900`s.
Good squish & no problemos, but do measure to b sure.
Take a couple of old bolts and nuts and drop them on the parts pan. That way when you put it all back together the extra bolts on the pan will not need to go on the bike. [thumbsup]
haha. nice.
Quote from: ducpainter on February 22, 2011, 05:04:53 PM
The cylinder will seal just fine to the case without the gasket.
The 'squish' and valve clearance part are the important variables. ;)
Mental bookmark. a poormans drop in. Gracias
Just chewing the cud for a second:
I don't understand the nomenclature of "drop-in" with reference to piston kits (that come with pistons, rings, pins, and clips). Is it because they have all the items you'd need to install? I was under the impression that one would need to balance the crank for the aftermarket pistons, (and really the bike would benefit from a balanced crank even with the stock pistons).
This was brought about by a suggestion from an old duc friend in Nashville who said "while its apart, you ought to raise the compression" - I had remembered reading about thin base gaskets from the CA-Cycleworks 100hp 2V article/ads, and now see that it is possible to run without the base gasket altogether (though I do wonder about the higher-lift IE cams on the M900, and the even higher lift ST2 cams or VeeTwo high torque, street, and race cams - the 210 through 212 grinds).
Talked to him again, and he said he was thinking about high compression pistons. Sure enough, I see that both JE and FBF have these high compression pistons in 92mm (I believe the FBF kits are made by WiseCo from reading around on the net). I'm sure there are more manufacturers out there, or at least one could contract a manufacturer to make some, but the ready-made kits are more my cup of tea.
I guess he was getting at - since the heads are off, why not take the cylinders off (got to if you mess with base gasket) and put in some high compression pistons while you are tinkering around. Here's where I thought that this wasn't so straight forward - does "drop-in" kit mean that its drop-in - with a piston mass close enough to the stock pistons so that the crank doesn't "have" to be balanced (even though it would be nice to do it anyhow - regardless of piston change)?
Splitting the cases is far beyond the scope of this project, so if that's the case, I want nothing to do with it (either at this time for this bike, or at all with regards to a fixxer-upper).
and then when searching, I find this in regards to the different weight of the 92mm JE pistons (guy was going to modify the pistons):
http://www.ducati.ms/forums/57-supersport/72543-fbf-je-pistons-2.html (http://www.ducati.ms/forums/57-supersport/72543-fbf-je-pistons-2.html)
Quote
In other words, you're stuck with the additional weight. This will not affect the balance of the motor, so long as both are the same. The counterwights on the crank balance the crank; they do not balance the piston/rod/wrist pin assemblies. The weights of those two assemblies offset each other on a 90 degree (or a 180 degree) crankshaft.
Countered by this response:
Quoteand i do not agree to the fact the counterweights on the crankshaft do balance the crank on a 90° L-twin, they are there to balance the whole crankshaft assembly including pistons, pins and conrods.
including this statement:
QuoteJE Pistons are said to have the same weight as the stock ducati pistons, so matching their weight will be your first priority here.
(with regards to the OP's questions as to piston to piston weight matching)
Countered by 3rd party:
QuotePistons are reciprocating mass, and thus do not enter into the balance question, nor do the wrist pins and the small end of the rod. The big-end does, however, and the rod itself as both reciprocating and rotating mass, so it also has an effect on the balance, albeit variable.
and that was confirmed by first party in above:
Quote...that's another way to put it. There is simply not enough mass, and it is too close to center, for the counterweights on the crank to "balance" the piston/pin/rod assembly. Yes, the big end of the rod adds two components to the equation, but the added weight of one big end is still offset by the added weight of the other in both of these components.
Sorry [2nd party], but we balance crankshafts all the time. They are balanced bare, all by themselves. Actually, there are two different kinds of cranks - "internally" or "externally" balanced. In the former, just the bare crank gets balanced to itself. In the latter, the flywheel is attached when balancing, and must forever remain matched with that crank.
We run some racing cranks with no counterweights at all. Kind of the extreme example of the lightened flywheel approach, it's an effort to reduce reciprocating mass. Surprisingly, vibration does not increase noticeably at all. A flat crank (boxer twins, VW fours, Porsche sixes) or a 90 degree crank (like ours) is surprisingly well balanced even with no counterweights. Stock Beetle motors have never had them.
Now look at our 45 degree Harley cranks. You simply cannot hang enough counterweight on the crank to offset the weight of those piston/pin/rod assemblies separated by only 45 degrees. They must balance each other - the crank simply cannot. Neither can the crank ever balance a single - look what BMW did with theirs, with the false piston to counterbalance the real one.
The dynamics of this are complicated. There are dozens of engineering papers explaining the nuts and bolts details of cylinder angle vs. balance. In a nutshell, we can achieve a "zero" primary balance at 90 and 180 degrees. This is with a single cylinder as a baseline "100%" shaker. A 45 degree twin becomes about an 80-some-odd percent shaker, 60 degrees takes a massive drop to well below 50%, and the "sweet spot" is hit at 90 degrees and again at 180 degrees. The piston/pin/rod assemblies are entirely responsible for the mass contributing to this vibration; remove them, and all of these cranks should be at "zero" balance.
Quote from: a m on February 24, 2011, 01:05:07 PM
does "drop-in" kit mean that its drop-in - with a piston mass close enough to the stock pistons so that the crank doesn't "have" to be balanced (even though it would be nice to do it anyhow - regardless of piston change)?
Yes, that is what it means. You still should weigh the new pistons to make sure they weigh what they are supposed to, but you do not need to have the crank balanced. Who are you ordering the pistons from?
I'm pretty sure the Pistal 1123 pistons I used might have actually been lighter than stock. I think the main thing is that they weighed the same.
Gotcha.
Not sure yet - just getting a feeler for what is involved and looking at budget as well as time constraints. I have some 94mm JE's that I got from Chris at CA-Cycleworks a bit ago, but those were for my M900, not this project. I see that he's discontinued carrying either the 92mm or 94mm JE kits now. FBF still lists it though, and I've seen Pistal listed as well (but obviously with a big price premium).
I was going to respond to the quoted material in this post:
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=46643.msg847413#msg847413 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=46643.msg847413#msg847413)
But there was so much wrong there it's not worth picking out the little bit of 'right'.
Executive summary on 'drop-in' pistons:
If the total weight of the piston assembly (pistons, rings, pins, and pin clips) is the same as the stock stuff, the balance won't change.
Whether or not it was correct when it came out of the factory is debatable.
Cool.
I'm keeping a close eye on this a m,
It's very close to the upcoming project that I will be doing
Keep the posts coming [thumbsup]
Mmick
I`d dremel out casting burrs & the little knee at cyl side in the carb inlets.
Adds a little smoothness.
Besides headswap,
fresh fuel pump or renovate kit cause diaphragms soon to be old, causing irritating problems.
Definitale new gas lines, esp the short tank-filter, collapses over time.
Check wiring around steering stem, often wear & shorts there.
Good stuff - I will go back over that as a checklist. I have done this so far:
From steel tank: New fuel lines - new fuel filter - new fuel lines - manual petcock (pingel) - new fuel lines - new rectangle shaped vacuum fuel pump (mikuni) [new vacuum line] - new fuel line to carbs. (I also pulled the carbs, and tried to perform a thorough cleaning).
So that should take care of fuel. I plugged vacuum port that used to power vacuum petcock with just a vacuum nipple cover. I think that's not the best solution and have thought about plugging with crush washer and bolt as I had done on my existing M900. If the simple nipple cover will work though, do let me know somebody.
Modified airbox to fit around FCRs, got new airfilter, found my Ferracci airbox ring and the snap-clips for airbox.
Always liked the look of high pipes, but also loved the NCR/Sil low pipes on my bike... This one got high mount arrows. No changes to header so far, and likely the only change will be to ceramic coat it and the intake manifolds. (Did put on billet mh900e style flanges that I had on the shelf unused since I put the sil headers on my bike).
--
For ignition - new spark plugs, new spark plug wires, and CA-Cycleworks Exact-Fit Coils. Using OEM kokusan igniters currently that came with it (and i have a spare set from my bike on the shelf). I was able to find some DP igniter boxes from an out-of-business dealer that I could put on there later, but first I would like to see if it will start, and later I would like to test ride to make sure it does not exhibit any bad steering characteristics.
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For chassis & suspension - I replaced the blown rear shock with Ohlins w/ remote reservoir. Replaced beautiful aluminum swingarm with black powdercoated steel one & new sprocket carrier - lug on sprocket carrier had machined deep grooves into aluminum swingarm and were partially hidden when assembled... Supposedly I have a billet suspension hoop coming too, but that is not necessary obviously. The front got the heavier-springed, race-tech revalved OEM 3-way Monster showas that were originally on my Monster (the forks on the bike had blown seal on one, and would nearly bottom out with only my arms pushing down, then again, i am a large mammal). I had the stock monster bore diameter IMA triples that I put on then also which gave me time to replace steering head bearings. i replaced the bent front wheel with one from ebay that is also less cosmetically challenged. still oem 3-spoke brembos, 20mm front axle, 17mm rear axle.
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For clutch & brakes - i put on the sbk style oem Brembo radial masters and scored some folding levers (PSR) off ebay. I put M1100 brake and clutch lines on since they are both braided and with appropriate fittings for radial pumps. I have the brembo goldline calipers currently on there (originally on my bike since I know their history and maintenance - the ones on the bike bled almost opaque brown dirty fluid), but am giving an overhaul to the GP 30/34 billet 2-piece calipers. Same piston sizes as the goldlines but no dust seals for better retraction, and in billet for more stiffness. I put on new rotors as well since the oem brembo swiss cheese rotors are heavier, these had some odd scoring, used with unknown pads, were on the bent wheel, and not floating. (wanted a fresh start all around). Rear rotor has not been changed, but has lots of grooves in it, so I do want to spend the hundred or so dollars for a replacement. (I can't believe the $30-40 USD rear rotors on eBay from China. too good to be true.) New barnett clutch, pulled yoyodyne slave from shelf, disassembled to clean thoroughly, and installed. (it came with one but I was concerned about seals after seeing brake fluid neglect on front brake hydraulics). New front reservoirs (sbk masters didn't come with them), new reservoir tubing (clear tygon line from kurvey girl - praying it truly does last as claimed), new rear brake line, all new banjo bolts and crush washers all around (no more rounded off banjo bolt heads), and everything bled with fresh fluid. (ATE Super Blue DOT 4 .. because its BLUE! and is supposed to be great for spirited street riding, as well as occasional track, on recommendation from bmw car racing friend known since high school, had to have it after seeing the JC Pak Bikes pictures with it [and showing off some cool discacciati brake/clutch parts on a sportclassic] - available probably locally but certainly from Motowheels. Note: Comes in enormous 1L jug)
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Electrical: Got the top power level Shorai battery. Replaced all fuses (every fuse was a 30A in the fuse block...???), fixed numerous wiring connections, replaced rear/tailight/turnsignal wiring harness. Replaced taillight, installed turn signals, tidied up wiring as best possible, looked concernedly at a few spots using unprotected spade connectors (fuel level sender, neutral light switch) - plan to overhaul soon. Upgraded battery-solenoid, solenoid-starter, engine-frame, frame-battery wires with large gauge, while moving engine-frame ground connection at frame to the frame point under battery box where frame-battery wire and wiring harness bolt in. Removed extra ground wire from bolt at regulator to battery, thoroughly cleaned frame bolt area (had 3 layers of paint - black spraypaint over red powdercoat over original antique gold frame paint). Hooked up gauges and dp analog tach.
Am considering replacing regulator. Talked with Amanda from Rick's Motorsport Electrics. They are really really really great. The replacement regulator they sell - hot shot series - is a MOSFET design and will run cooler while able to put out a consistent 50A. We also talked about a higher output stator for accessories (this will be the grocery getter, I'd like heated grips, heated gear plug in, maybe even a gps). Not yet available, but i could be a guineau pig - cool with me, but before I commit to being a tester, I ought to have the bike in working order. And if I'm pulling that side cover off, its getting a nice coat of paint while I'm at it, and this thing is getting a lightweight flywheel - I really like my Nichols, and I'd quickly get another (besides I'm not sure one can get a carb-flywheel turned down because of the pickups). I had considered looking into the Silent-Hektik parts - they have a regulator as well, on top of their fuel-injection retro fit kits, digital ignitions, and programmable ignitions (with coils, flywheels, pickups, selectable curves, etc). Then i remembered the goal was to be able to ride this thing in relatively short order and I had already spent money on silly, unnecessary things.
--
Body: Got belt covers, under-seat side panels (they were either missing or broken/damaged). Happened to get them in carbon, lucky me. DP oil catching belly pan "just in case". Had DP Carbon front fairing for the 98-99 era Monsters. SWEET. Had the steel brackets - they do work with the IMA triples (double sweet!). Remembered I had seen aluminum ones once upon a time, but for some reason either didn't get them (cyclecat triple is not compatible with 98-99 era fairing brackets)... Re-found them: ECS Ducati / Ducatipartsblowout. (Sidebar: Almost got talked into the LRB aluminum matrix brake rotors - the pics he sent me look way cooler than those on the website... until I heard the price - they look just like the half-price swann mmc rotors...made by Lyndall Racing Brakes ["LRB" ?] listed on Motowheels).
That's all I can remember off the top of my head. Still need to put tires on it, do these heads, and pray to Jupiter for the sound of thunder when I push the start button.
a m.
Thanks for sharing the extensive list.
Watching with great interest. There's alot of stuff there that should be on everyone's checklist when getting an older used bike, especially one that's been laying around. Then there's alot of stuff there that's just you being you! :D You seem to have a magnetic pull on all sorts of cool parts and a great eye for what looks right. Your wrestling name would be "The Accumulator".
Love your work. [thumbsup]
I also noted that JE 94mm pistons are no longer listed by Chris. Kicking myself for not picking up a set. Damn, I'll have to get the 95mm pistons for the 'next' rebuild. [evil]
Haha, you better get on those Mahles quick - I asked him about those, I think its his last set. They are some of the better made pistons from my recollection. (Though my knowledge banks are not complete: Pistal, JE, Mahle, Arias, Bucci, Ferraci/FBF's wiseco [i think its wiseco])
I'll do a photo writeup in the end. I'm considering leaving the pistons alone, looking into the thinner or removed base gasket for a slight increase in compression, and finally putting those VeeTwo -210 'high torque' cams in something. From my review of the last topic regarding those, Brad Black mentioned that they generate a lot of pressure early, which when combined with high compression pistons there would be detonation/pinging. So, I could use these cams with the standard pistons and just go on with it. (and hope to not put a hole in a piston crown somewhere down the road).
that last sentiment kinda makes me want to do more investigation into the likes of swain tech coatings or other comparable applications to the combustion chamber, piston crown, and valve faces
don't forget about trouble with fitting those cams.
Interesting to compare Brad's stuff on those cams:
http://www.bikeboy.org/900carbv2cam.html (http://www.bikeboy.org/900carbv2cam.html)
With this DS1k stuff:
http://www.bikeboy.org/gt1000dpk.html (http://www.bikeboy.org/gt1000dpk.html)
The 900 with those cams is quite strong, more down low and hangs with the DS up to 7k.
you'll need to remove the cylinder and reseal or replace the base gasket. if it's 99 it has the old hard sealer and i expect it'll leak after being disturbed.
i have fitted je pistons to quite a lot of things and the weight varies from maybe 50 grams lighter (carb 900) to not a great deal lighter (ie 900). i forget the numbers now. in my 750 the fbf pistons are 52 grams (11%) lighter than the originals and it made not a bit of difference to how the engine felt - no vibration issues after the swap that weren't there before. so i do not have any belief in the "have to rebalance" argument. i have ridden a few and indeed used to own one of the "coarse" 900 motors from the 1993 era - they're rather unpleasant, not sure why.
ca cycleworks don't sell je anymore as you can buy them on ebay for prices that meant there was no point losing money trying to compete. well, having just looked on ebay they've gone up - they were there for $275 or so a few months ago, now 320 - 350.
je have deeper valve reliefs than std pistons. if you fit 210 cams on std pistons you need to deepen the inlet reliefs at least. the other point for fitting 210 is you have to either use thicker than ducati offer opening shims, have your inlet valves extended or use longer inlet valves.
je pistons have 1.0mm squish with the original base gaskets ime. don't think i've checked a std piston. my 750 was around 1mm piston to head clearance all std too, which surprised me.
i'd think 900ie cams are too long duration for long manifold carb heads, but i could be wrong.
that's about all i can think of.
on the thicker than normal opening shim brad mentioned, i would contact EMS to see it Mike could make you some. especially since ducati shims now are $34 each and EMS is $10.
+1 on the ebay JE pistons. i checked some of the sellers, and some were sold as cheap as $260 for 92mm's.
QuoteAm considering replacing regulator. Talked with Amanda from Rick's Motorsport Electrics. They are really really really great. The replacement regulator they sell - hot shot series - is a MOSFET design and will run cooler while able to put out a consistent 50A.
That`s good news, thx!
Is that the 10-125H & is it bolt-on?
I`ve thought about the Shindengen upgrade :
http://www.roadstercycle.com/Shindengen%20FH012AA%20Regulator%20upgrade%20kit.htm (http://www.roadstercycle.com/Shindengen%20FH012AA%20Regulator%20upgrade%20kit.htm)
Considering price, programmability & versatility, Ignitech is a better option than S-H.
I`d also check cush drives (incorrect term?) f rear sprocket mount, often incompleate or missing.
Checked rear sprocket carrier's cush drives/lugs. Replaced carrier - new one has good condition stuff and new sprocket went on.
I have the 210 cams, and the corresponding VeeTwo valves (intake and exhaust, oem valve face diameters) so i should be able to use normal shims, from my understanding.
but, that is a bummer regarding the relief pockets in the OEM pistons not being as deep, meaning these cams won't go right in... I have a set of new base gaskets, OEM thickness in the parts shelves, not that they are necessary to substitute in, but when I take it all apart, I will spread everything out for a good look-see.