Apologies for the derby, I'm sure I've seen several threads on this topic in the past but I couldn't locate any in my quick scan...
Are 916 forks a direct swap for a '96 M900, or is some boring of the stock triple necessary?
Do the brake calipers line up in the same position for the stock rotors, or would I need to have spacers machined?
I've currently got the stock set-up: non-adjustable Showas w/ the 40mm Brembos and the 25mm axle, stock wheels and rotors.
Thanks in advance for any assistance.
DTRAL
Shim required for lower triple, and bore-out for upper triple.
Or aftermarket triples made for SBK fitment to early Monster.
SBK forks are longer than your Showas, 29-5/8" vs 28-11/16".
At least by my measurements....
Reference: http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=33173.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=33173.0)
Brakes, wheel, rotor should all be fine, if your axle is cross-drilled, than you're set.
Quote from: dropstharockalot on February 25, 2011, 06:27:45 AM
Apologies for the derby, I'm sure I've seen several threads on this topic in the past but I couldn't locate any in my quick scan...
Are 916 forks a direct swap for a '96 M900, or is some boring of the stock triple necessary?
Do the brake calipers line up in the same position for the stock rotors, or would I need to have spacers machined?
I've currently got the stock set-up: non-adjustable Showas w/ the 40mm Brembos and the 25mm axle, stock wheels and rotors.
Thanks in advance for any assistance.
DTRAL
Are you sure your axle is 25mm on that 96?
I have a 96 and the axle shaft is 17mm with larger section on the r/h side where the hex is.
Was wondering about that axle myself...
It makes the wheel pretty useless. Axles are available.
I have a 3 spoke off a 748 that should work if that's the only thing stopping the project.
Quote from: ducpainter on February 25, 2011, 08:41:01 AM
Are you sure your axle is 25mm on that 96?
I have a 96 and the axle shaft is 17mm with larger section on the r/h side where the hex is.
Uhh... y'know, that's very possible. I only measured the right side last night. I'll certainly double-check tonight.
Is your post implying that the 916 forks actually use the 25mm axle, and not the 17mm that is likely present in my 96 m900?
Quote from: dropstharockalot on February 25, 2011, 09:09:05 AM
Uhh... y'know, that's very possible. I only measured the right side last night. I'll certainly double-check tonight.
Is your post implying that the 916 forks actually use the 25mm axle, and not the 17mm that is likely present in my 96 m900?
Yes.
The 25 mm axle originated on the 916 I'm pretty sure.
Do you have the new forks yet?
Nope, doing homework before jumping in to a purchase. I'm trying to sort out what i can accomplish before it gets nice enough to ride in a couple months. Upgrades are down the list behind regular maintenance stuff, and if it gets too spendy it'll probably get postponed.
The prospect of having shims machined, plus the triples bored - a bit daunting, but not a deal-killer yet.
Would I need to swap my whole front wheel, or is there a common spacer/bushing/bearing fix for the 25mm/17mm axle problem?
///or should I just commit myself to 30mins with the search function and stop bugging you guys?
A bearing swap isn't really the best way because the larger ID bearings are wider and then you get into making custom spacers or having your old wheel machined.
Probably cheaper just to get the right wheel and axle and bolt it on.
Hold on, i got this for ya - as I have just done this recently... twice.
Whatever the front wheel is on your M900, it won't be used with the 916 forks. Your M900 is going to have from the factory (unless its already been changed once) a 17mm or 20mm front axle. Your wheel will be for either of those two. The 916 forks (and 748 forks, and the later 748/996/998 forks) do not use this size axle. They use the 25mm hollow front axle.
Your to-do homework:
Triple Clamps and Controls: You will need to bore/shim your triples, or order a set for that purpose (53/53 for 916 showa forks). Mine are from IMA SrL, and I like them lots. If you have clipons, they will not work unless you bore them to 53mm ID as well, or get SBK clipons. Or beg speedymoto to bore the TallBoys at 53mm so you can have adj clipons with rise. Ignore if you are using a bar setup, but know that you may need to get bar risers so that your handlebar will adequately clear the fork caps/adjusters.
Axle/Wheel: You need a 25mm hollow front axle. If you got money to burn, get a lightweight one from TPO or Motowheels (they have the lightweight 7068 Alu front axle at TPO, which I have on my bike, and Motowheels has the Titanium version). You need a wheel for said front axle - with accommodation for the mechanical speedo drive gear. That kind of limits your options away from the newer monster front wheels that do not have this (AFAIK) unless you get creative finding another way for speedometer. Additionally, you want to make sure the wheel has the speedo pickups (meaning a 748-916-996 era wheel) and that it has the 6-bolt rotor pattern (so your brake rotors bolts up). You will also need to procure a 25mm axle specific, Monster-specific speedo drive (the SBK ones will show a different speed apparently).
Brakes:
If you pick 916 (or early 748) forks, your Brembo Goldline 2-pad 1-pin calipers will bolt right up, no mods needed. They both have 40mm caliper mounts, correct offset to work with the 6-bolt rotors you already got, etc.
If you pick 996, 998, or late 748 forks, they have a 65mm brake caliper mount. You can either get 65mm to 40mm adapter plates (yoyodyne, ams, etc) and use your existing brake calipers (may need new line, no guarantee depending on other variables as to whether there is enough free play) or get 65mm mount Brembo Goldlines (just like yours but use 2 pins to hold in pads, so you'll need new pads to), or the 4-pad style 749/999 with 65mm mount (i *think* they work too).
If you are being choosey, you want to pick forks with a Titanium-Nitride coating (or DLC, whatevs) over the chrome ones. Chrome sliders are the most common (whats undoubtedly on your M900) however. But unless you are made of money, don't go and bid on those 916 forks on eBay with the TiNi sliders and the racetech hard anodizing because they are priced stupid high at over 500 bones. (Might as well get 848 forks and brakes for almost the same price as those forks alone since you are going to need a new axle and wheel anyhoo)
Last note: Your front fender won't work anymore. Any post '99 Monster fender should work, as will superbike fenders (more desirable as they protect the slider from rock dings - required if you get those TiNi sliders, protect the investment!). You also will want to make sure to snag the appropriate fork bottom "collars" or "straps" that the fender bolts onto.
I'm in the middle of doing the exact swap. 916 forks on a 96 M900. I got the IMA triples and everything is on right now except I'm waiting for the proper bushing for the left fork leg to arrive. The end of the axle fits perfectly into the right fork when you slide it in. I don't see why you would need anything except for the correct spacer for the left fork, but until I get mine and try it out, I wont be able to tell you for sure.
Quote from: xarlo on February 25, 2011, 11:02:00 AM
I'm in the middle of doing the exact swap. 916 forks on a 96 M900. I got the IMA triples and everything is on right now except I'm waiting for the proper bushing for the left fork leg to arrive. The end of the axle fits perfectly into the right fork when you slide it in. I don't see why you would need anything except for the correct spacer for the left fork, but until I get mine and try it out, I wont be able to tell you for sure.
When you say spacer are you referring to the threaded insert for the axle that goes into the left fork bottom?
i thought that was just on the non-hollow axles, like the 20mm axle on the pre2000 monsters and pre99 ss... The 916 style forks use the hollow axle with a threaded end, sticks through the fork bottom and a washer and nut go on the outside.
You can put a spacer between the wheel and the fork to replace the mechanical speedo drive - is that what you mean?
Quote from: ducpainter on February 25, 2011, 11:07:28 AM
When you say spacer are you referring to the threaded insert for the axle that goes into the left fork bottom?
Yes this... I bought the forks/triples from Duck Stew and explained to him that I know nothing about any of this. He told me all I would need is the threaded insert, but he had to wait for it to be ordered and will be sending it to me soon, I think. So I will be able to say for sure then.
Quote from: xarlo on February 25, 2011, 11:24:32 AM
Yes this... I bought the forks/triples from Duck Stew and explained to him that I know nothing about any of this. He told me all I would need is the threaded insert, but he had to wait for it to be ordered and will be sending it to me soon, I think. So I will be able to say for sure then.
Easier to get the proper wheel and axle IMO...unless you have a machinist in your back pocket which Stu probably does. ;D
a m, thanks for the detailed tutorial.
I'm really looking at it from the standpoint of a quick, low-cost, low-hassle project... In the long run (funds permitting), I'm going to be looking at substantial wheel upgrades and fork upgrades, so I'm hesitant to do a lot of purchasing or modifying for what I was hoping was an inexpensive interim solution. It sounded a lot more attractive when I was just looking at a couple bucks for machining and shims... instead of a new wheel, axle, speedo sensor, etc...
I'll weigh my options this weekend... the fork's not going anywhere, and they seem to be pretty plentiful in the various marketplaces if it does.
Thanks to everyone for all the help, and if anyone has anything else to add please keep posting!
i agree - get correct wheel/axle/speedo-drive. Its really not very expensive on the eBays either to find these items on the cheap. Then again, if you have to buy a wheel anyhoo, why not upgrade? [evil]
Quote from: a m on February 25, 2011, 10:56:11 AM
You will need to bore/shim your triples, or order a set for that purpose (53/53 for 916 showa forks).
OK, wait - I put the caliper on my stock fork tube last night, and it was 53mm (+/-) at the bottom triple clamp... Is the stock monster triple 54mm or larger at the bottom? Wouldn't that mean I could just have the top clamp bore to out 53mm?
Quote from: dropstharockalot on February 25, 2011, 11:36:41 AM
OK, wait - I put the caliper on my stock fork tube last night, and it was 53mm (+/-) at the bottom triple clamp... Is the stock monster triple 54mm or larger at the bottom? Wouldn't that mean I could just have the top clamp bore to out 53mm?
Prooooove it. Digital calipers? Make sure they are zeroed. You aren't going to have stock forks with a 53mm diameter at the lower triple. Least I don't think such things existed. Take photos of your setup, in the event you do have a 53mm diameter fork at the lower triple...and a hollow front axle...leading me to believe you already have SBK forks.
having messed with these things for a bit, i'd do budget calcs like this:
machine shop to bore/shim triples, or get the IMA ones done up for SBK forks and get the benefits of the beefier lower triple at the same time. they are revising the MOD1 design over the summer and it will be improved come Autumn, so use that as a reason not to rush. (MOD1 is the right one for your frame Monster 94-01).
the forks - which determine which wheel specifications you'll use, the axle, and the brake caliper mounts. when you get 'em, you can budget for the correct springs for your weight with gear, making the sag-setting process do able. If you've got the jingle, also a good time to do a valve kit in those puppies and finish it off with fresh fork fluid. the fork choice determines the axle selection. if you pick 749/999, its a different axle, and 848/1098/1198/SF is a different axle. Those two axle sizes & the wheels they correspond to also force you to find another way to spin the speedometer or replace it (but that's mo' $$$).
wheel/wheels - you could do just an oem used front to get along for awhile, or order up a set of performance wheels. You'll be perusing the parts catalogs as though you have a 2000 era Monster - 25mm axle hole and 6-bolt rotor pattern.
You kind of have a lot of options. You can jump to 848 forks and get the advantages of modern radial brake caliper fork-bottoms, but that means you have to buy modern radial brake calipers (really not too bad if you get the 2-piece design, such as on the 848 and others - heck, same stuff is standard on bmw's top spec sbk, the s1000rr). The 848 (or even 1098/1198 forks which have the DLC coated sliders) forks require that style axle, and the 5-bolt rotor wheels, and the oem spacers to center wheel between axles. Then you gotta get the 5-bolt rotors. Gotta come up with a new speedometer solution. Some of this stuff is pretty easy to find on eBay if you are looking, and piecing together over time.
The straightforward tried-n-true method is easier for a lot of reasons, but if you can be patient and are willing to spread it out over time, you can get something more modern if that interests you. Note that some of the most top-shelf fancy fork/brake combos use the 916 era components, some of which is already on your bike: The 40mm caliper mounts (Brembo's race-level billet and billet monoblock non-radial brakes are 40mm mount, not the later 65mm mount, hence the existance of the adapter plates and ohlins fork caliper mount brackets). That's to say that for "good" stuff, you don't have to get tomorrow's technology, but you may find that its easier to get the more current stuff for x or y reasons.
His forks are non adjustable with a 17mm axle...they can't be SBK.
His calipers could however, suck. ;)
oh yes, that is right - i just reread the earlier posts where he measured the hex head side of the axle, which makes you think it is much bigger than it is.
Quote from: ducpainter on February 25, 2011, 11:54:51 AM
His calipers could however, suck. ;)
Harbor Freight, baby!
So, yeah. Maybe it's time to see if my buddy across the street has a better set in his collection.
///prolly just user error... herp derp derp
hey drops. there was just a set of top and bottom triples on ebay, bored to 53mm and for your bike - the ima's am was talking about. they didn't sell but i think he may relist them. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230588239975&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEDWX%3AIT#ht_500wt_1182 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230588239975&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEDWX%3AIT#ht_500wt_1182) - auction's ended and i hit him up to see how much loot he was lookin for. said he wanted $500 - maybe you could talk some sense into him.
Quote from: uglyducky on February 25, 2011, 12:40:56 PM
hey drops. there was just a set of top and bottom triples on ebay, bored to 53mm and for your bike - the ima's am was talking about. they didn't sell but i think he may relist them. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230588239975&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEDWX%3AIT#ht_500wt_1182 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230588239975&viewitem=&sspagename=STRK%3AMEDWX%3AIT#ht_500wt_1182) - auction's ended and i hit him up to see how much loot he was lookin for. said he wanted $500 - maybe you could talk some sense into him.
You keep on being this nice to me, and I may just have to book your band out here during MotoGP...
///$500 is well outside of what I'm looking to get into at this point, but I'll keep an eye out.
My confusion, now with pics!
Top triple - non-adjustable caps, 50mm.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5295/5477038941_e9f3cbbb37.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/51788015@N00/5477038941/)
Top (http://www.flickr.com/photos/51788015@N00/5477038941/#) by bignookoo (http://www.flickr.com/people/51788015@N00/), on Flickr
Bottom triple - 53mm.
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5177/5477039039_3d6fcfe4f7.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/51788015@N00/5477039039/)
Bottom (http://www.flickr.com/photos/51788015@N00/5477039039/#) by bignookoo (http://www.flickr.com/people/51788015@N00/), on Flickr
Solid axle, 17mm... but what's that silver ring around it - possible spacer? There's only the one on the left side, not one on the right...
(http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5137/5477039129_1a69c60fda.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/51788015@N00/5477039129/)
Axle (http://www.flickr.com/photos/51788015@N00/5477039129/#) by bignookoo (http://www.flickr.com/people/51788015@N00/), on Flickr
The piece on the bottom is a threaded insert. It's held in by the pinch bolts. That's the piece xarlo is waiting for to use the forks with a stock axle.
I see 53+ at the bottom triple. What does the readout say?
Quote from: ducpainter on February 25, 2011, 02:59:53 PMThe piece on the bottom is a threaded insert. It's held in by the pinch bolts. That's the piece xarlo is waiting for to use the forks with a stock axle.
Ah... so what's the o/d on the threaded insert?
Quote from: ducpainter on February 25, 2011, 02:59:53 PMI see 53+ at the bottom triple. What does the readout say?
53.89mm
54mm
Quote from: dropstharockalot on February 25, 2011, 03:31:18 PM
Ah... so what's the o/d on the threaded insert?
53.89mm
I don't know. I believe it's smaller than 25 mm. You should be able to get a 'pretty close' with your calipers.
I think xarlo is waiting for a custom unit.
+1...that's 54mm.
Quote from: dropstharockalot on February 25, 2011, 02:27:12 PM
You keep on being this nice to me, and I may just have to book your band out here during MotoGP...
///$500 is well outside of what I'm looking to get into at this point, but I'll keep an eye out.
i agree, way too much seeing as though they are +- $400 new. either way, they look sweet as hell. would'nt hurt droppin him a line with a realistic offer.