Ducati Monster Forum

I’m sure you have all noticed that the MPG ratings of cars and trucks has been going up.  There is big competition among auto makers to improve MPG and I think it is a good thing.  But there has been little change in bike MPG.  My new Mazda 3 gets nearly the same mileage as my S4R!  So why haven’t the bike makers caught the bug?  There is place in my garage for a high MPG sport tourer that doesn’t exist yet.  I’m thinking if a car like the Ford Focus with a conventional engine can get 40 mpg (http://media.fordvehicles.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=34145 (http://media.fordvehicles.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=34145))  a sport touring bike, similarly engineered, could get at least 80 mpg.  I don’t need 1300cc gas guzzler with 130 Hp to ride from Houston to Seattle and that seems to be the trend.  Best MPG for a reasonable level of performance, that I’m aware of, is about 60 MPG for the BMWs powered by the 800cc Rotax twins.  I think there is a niche for even better. 

There have been some improvements in the auto industry; with some models.  However, I think there is still a horsepower war going on in most cases that prevents interest in high MPG vehicles.  I foresee that changing, especially this coming year when gas hits $4+ per gallon and I'm sure diesel will follow suit.  I don't think we will ever see less than $3.50 per after this summer is over.  Motorcycles are still thought of a high mileage vehicles the way they currently are; no need to improve.

I've been thinking of replacing my Mazda Miata with a Jeep; I mean a real Jeep.  Rubber floor mats, bucket seats in front and the removable small single bench in the rear.  However, I found out they no longer make one with the 4 cyl.  After talking to a few owners with the 6 cyl and hearing that they only get around 15 mpg average, I see no reason to have a vehicle that doesn't get any better than my Dodge Ram 4X4 quad cab (that I use to pull my tractor).  My Miata averages 32 mpg but I can't take it to my place in the woods because of the roads.  Go to your local truck dealer and see how many full size trucks they have with a 6 cyl.  When I worked construction, we pulled a large backhoe with a Chevy full size HD truck with a 6 cyl.  Now, every joe that wants a pickup to got to Home Depot on the weekend to buy a couple of bags of mulch thinks he has to have the biggest engine available in his truck.  Also, how many of the trucks with diesels actually work with that truck.  I see young "studs" driving diesel trucks that have never had anything in the bed of their truck and have never pulled a trailer (other than maybe the family boat to the lake).

The buying public is going to have to demand "real" high mileage vehicles before they start building more models.  Yes, there have been pretty major improvements in the mpg of new vehicles but there is still a LARGE attitude adjustment that needs to happen before we see the extreme change.  The HP wars have to stop to get the really high mileage vehicles on the road and the buying public must demand that with their purchase dollars.

Sorry to be so long winded; my point is, there hasn't really been the demand for improvement in the mpg of motorcycles.

I understand the continuing HP war that have been going on for decades and I don't see it coming to a stop.  But as the gas prices continue to rise I also see a place for high MPG motos.   The technology has been developed and it only needs to be applied.  Based upon what I have been reading in the moto mags there is interest in electric bikes which might make excellent commuters but for cross country travel and dual sport riding they are not going to cut it.  I might be wrong, but I think who ever comes out with an 80MPG moto that can perform well, is going to sell a lot of bikes.   

My 2008 Kawasaki Ninja 250r that I had got 50-60mpg

Primary issue preventing higher mileage motos is aerodynamics.
Bikes are *way* worse than cars in that respect.

Craig Vetter has done a ton of work in this area:
http://www.craigvetter.com/pages/Motorcycle_Designs/Streamliner.html (http://www.craigvetter.com/pages/Motorcycle_Designs/Streamliner.html)

(http://www.craigvetter.com/images/Motorcycle%20Designs/Streamliner_media/1981-Streamliner-at-speed.jpg)

I guess the general public don't pay enough attention or buy enough small displacement bikes to force the manufacturers to chance.  Many parts of the world have long enjoyed small displacement and fuel effecient bikes for as long as there are bikes.

That's the point I was making.  There just isn't a demand for one here so the manufacturers are not offering one.

My 2006 Ducati Sport 1000 consistently gets 45+, and if I need to I can stretch it and get 50+ mpg pretty easily.

From what I've seen these bikes are based upon very old technology.  Back in the day, and still in Asia, a Honda 90 got +100 mpg.  But I'm thinking with things like variable valve timing, liquid cooling, feedback loop EFI light weight components, and proper tuning we should be able to achieve a high MPG bike that could still do 100mph and get 80+ MPG.  

I guess I don't agree that there isn't a demand but I don't have data to support my claim.  What is needed to resolve our disagreement is a market survey that would ask the right questions. 

But I do offer, with all the interest and development of electric bikes why not more R&D and press on fuel efficient bikes.

+1 on electric bikes. 

I wouldn't say that there isn't a demand for small displacement bikes.  Just not enough of a demand.  In Asia, any car over 1800cc would be consider a big car and too expensive/impractical.  There are tons of motorcycle available under 600cc.  In the US, how many look for cars under 1800cc and motorcycle under 600?  There are some but definitely not the majority. 

Honda took a good first step when they decided to bring over the CBR250R.  Although I wish it would be a twin, instead of a single, it's definitely a step in the right direction.  Hope more of these bikes in different categories are made available in the US. 

Actually I find the new Honda a big disappointment.  It is inexpensive, a good thing, but it doesn't better gas mileage than the 800cc BMWs.

everyone wants power.

My dads old 4cyl Toyota use to haul so much shit bfore it died at some ridiculous hundreds of thousands of miles VERY few oil changes...which ultimately led to its death.

Hell the older scorpion tanks that the brits made used 6cylinder gasoine jaguar engines and those tanks weighted 8 tons!

In the USA, bikes are not primary transit for the vast majority of owners, they are weekend warrior stuff.

Cars are primary transit, hence the need to high mileage cars.

We're too busy tuning and retuning the bikes to get more HP and knocking DOWN the gas mileage..

1st thing any motorcyclist can do to raise fuel milage...be less spirited with the throttle...

2nd thing you can do...make sure your rolling drivetrain parts are properly lubricated and operating as they should and make sure your tires are inflated to the proper spec.

3rd thing...trade your Pongo with BigStick for something akin to the Dual Sports we were talking in the Dual Sport Thread....

Are there any high-mileage tourers on the European or Asian markets, where gasoline prices are significantly higher and have been for quite some time? I'm not aware of any (which doesn't mean much!).

Edit: And by "tourers" I'm not including things like the Royal Enfield diesels in India that get crazy gas mileage and top out around at, what, 40-45 mph, and take a minute or two to get there.

The development money in car mpg issues is not being spent because of consumer demand.  Different pressure on the manufacturers.

That pressure isn't there for bikes at all. 

Now, if motorcycles could be wrapped into the same category as 4 wheel vehicles, we'd see large auto groups buying out moto manufacturers and making veeeeery fuel efficient bikes.

 ;)

i wonder how a hybrid bike would work out?  sort of like the chevy volt... fully electric, but has a small gas engine to recharge the electric motor, giving you the extended range you need to deal with the kind of traveling you get here in the states.

without any of the losses from running a hvac system like a car etc... it can prob be a tiny gas engine

I think space on a bike will make a hybrid a problem.  If you look at the electric bikes a lot of space is taken up with batteries.  I don't see where you could stick an engine.  You could just make the bike as big as it needs to be to accommodate both gas and electric, but does it become something bigger than the sport touring bikes we are used to.   

my thoughts exactly.  people like myself who commute daily via bike are a very small minority.  even here in sunny LA!

Honda NT700?  45-50 mpg.

One of the bikeporn mags featured a concept hybrid... I think it was a Norton.  They had a rotary engine to power the electric fuel cells, but I can't recall if the gas component offered direct drive to the rear wheel.  I think the gas engine may have only run to charge the electric.  They made some whopping mileage claim like 235mpg, reported a top speed of like 135, and claimed like 345lbs wet.  The pics looked like a 600 supersport, iirc.

///gotta go find the mag...

Yeah!!  Find it.  It sounds to good to be true.  Like a $3k 1098 in craigslist with no title.  But that would be the answer if it is the real deal?  I don't mind being proved wrong in my earlier post about not enough room for two power sources on a bike.

thing is... due to the fact that the engine will recharge the batteries, you'll be able reduce the amount of batteries needed and replace them with the engine.  and i'm picturing a really really small engine here... basically just enough to spin a alternator and that's it.  fully electric beyond that.

(http://www.motorcycledaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/071510bottom.jpg)

that's the brammo empulse... top of the line one has a 100 mile range...

i see 4 major battery cells it looks like... so i figure you drop off 2 of the battery packs and replace them with a small engine to spin the alternator to recharge the battery packs?  should get a 50 mile pure battery range and then be able to go to the engine for recharging...

I'm sorry if this sounds rude, but what's the point?  I get the difference between 20mpg and 40 mpg, but once you're getting 40 or 50 mpg isn't that good enough.  Sure, there's a niche market for super fuel efficient motorcycles, but there are so many competing concerns with a sport touring bike and they get good enough gas mileage, who really cares if they're still not as efficient as they could be?

Like others have said, the mpg on a motorcycle is a side benefit, but hardly the driving force behind what makes most people ride.

So to actually answer your "why not" question?  Because the sport touring market doesn't REALLY want one enough to justify the R&D involved and the compromises that would be make on the other aspects of the bike.  

My '05 620 gets 45-50 mpg every tank. I think it's a good balance between fun, power, MPG. I use my bike for commutting. That's why I got the 620... good balance for me.

That's about what I get with a 1998 Ducati ST2 -- and nobody's ever going to call it perfectly fine "utilitarian motorcycle" the way the reviews I looked at do the NT700.

The weirder thing -- until you figure in motorcycle aerodynamics as Statler mentioned above -- the little 600 cc Monster doesn't do a whole lot better.

45-50 MPG + 139MPH ... who can beat that!   ;D

I've gotten an average of 46.8 mpg over the last 10 tankfuls on my S4.
Commuting about 80% freeway, 20% surface street.

My Honda gets around 85 usually.
but its a Ruckus, so when i sport tour it takes a long time to get any where.

it makes a ruckus?  put a better muffler on it.

Want a high milage Bike
(http://www.motorcycle-usa.com/PhotoGallerys/xlarge/ATL_8968.jpg)

Gets over 50+ mpg can do 80 mph and is fully comfortable to be a tourer.  What more could you ask?

Something that doesn't say "Hey other bikers, come kick my ass!"  [laugh]

What I believe has changed the game for cars is direct petrol injection - injection of fuel at very high pressure directly into the combustion chamber, diesel style, rather than just into the intake manifold. Allows more precise fuelling, better atomisation, less waste.

Aprilia offers this in a couple of two-stroke 50cc scooters (http://www.apriliascooters.com.au/scooters/scarabeoditech.html).

(http://www.apriliascooters.com.au/images/scooters/scarabeo/2red800tb.jpg)

Details on the direct injection at this link (http://www.apriliascooters.com.au/scooters/ditech.html).

They claim 50 pc cut in fuel consumption at cruising speed, and about 120mpg. (Cruising speed won't be very high, of course).

Haven't seen this in bigger bikes. As others have said, the manufacturers probably believe buyers wouldn't pay extra for it.

I think we would once people realised it meant a better fuel range as well.

 [laugh]  I still want one!

Here: http://www.cycleworld.com/first_motorcycle_ride/special_features_articles/10q4/rotary_hybrid_superbike_-_special_feature (http://www.cycleworld.com/first_motorcycle_ride/special_features_articles/10q4/rotary_hybrid_superbike_-_special_feature)

Dunno where I got the mpg figures from... must been speaking outta my "ignorance."

Very interesting.  The article gives no MPG figures but I can see that fuel efficiency was not a goal.  But it does show the potential to build high MPG bike with good performance.  I'm surprised about the use of a rotary engine.  My impression, based on the economy of the old Mazda rotary cars, is that these engines are not efficient.  

I still would have loved to see the Thunderstar get developed and this might end up being the answer...

http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2005/02/25/thunder-star-1200-diesel-by-star-twin/ (http://thekneeslider.com/archives/2005/02/25/thunder-star-1200-diesel-by-star-twin/)

If and when the liter bikes switch over to direct fuel injection, is when we will start seeing huge increases in fuel economy. The problem is, I believe DFI isn't allowed in racing, for safety concerns.

Of course, DFI might be better suited to small displacement bikes, as this will allow big increases in torque at low rpms, which 1 liter bikes just don't need any additional help in this rpm range. Small bikes, like the Ninja 250, would see huge torque gains, not to mention fuel efficiency increases, and would be much more enjoyable to ride in the low rpm range.

Give DFI to mid size bikes between 500 cc and 750 cc, and there won't be any point to having 1 liter and bigger bikes. Same low end torque output, higher fuel economy, and bigger smiles.

So, if you had to guess which company might be the first to adopt it, aside from Aprillia on their 50 cc two stroke scooter engine, who do you think would be first to market with a DFI bike? Since Ducati doesn't do anything to their bikes that isn't used on a racetrack, I doubt they would splurge on this tech anytime soon.

I would say BMW would be first.
Germans manufacturers push DFI harder than any other country's manufacturers right now.
They always play with technology long before anyone else even considers it on their bikes.

BC.

I'd say that BMW is a good bet to make a breakthrough.  They seem to have more invested in long distance tourers sport tourers and dual sports than other manufacturers.   Honda also seems like a company that might give it a try.  They have the technology from their auto manufacturing and make just about every class of bike.  They also have a history of introducing off beat bikes into production.

60MPG from the new CBR250R

http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2011/Mar/110302cbr250.htm (http://www.superbikeplanet.com/2011/Mar/110302cbr250.htm)

Motus will have direct injection.

That's about as far away as you can get from a touring bike as you can get, and still be "highway legal."

BC.

not true...define touring...comfortable for a long haul, upright(generally speaking) seating position, and luggage capable....so...throw some panniers on and have at it...I have seen people tour on lots of things...hell..there was that thread on ADVrider about the guy that went cross country on a 49cc Ruckus...it isn't about what it is, but how you use it!...kinda like it not being about the bike, but more about the rider using it!

I had the opportunity to throw a leg over one of these a while back.

http://blogs.dieselpowermag.com/6504602/whats-new/military-spec-d-and-ready-for-the-field/index.html (http://blogs.dieselpowermag.com/6504602/whats-new/military-spec-d-and-ready-for-the-field/index.html)

I'd love to see this line of thought taken to something like a Gelandestrasse... 

I have had my eye on that company and that civilian model of machine for a few years now and they just can't seem to turn their concentration to that end of things....great bike and concept...just wish I'd be able to get one...maybe as a DRMO piece...

Gas has gone up about $.35 across the nation.  I think the fall out of the price increase will be more interest in the kind of bikes we have been talking about here.  Some have argued that the reason there is no high MPG sport tourer available is because there is no interest.  As prices increase I see an increasing need.  Who ever makes the first high MPG Sport Tourer is going to sell a lot of bikes.  Lots of good ideas here: diesels, hybrids, and direct injection. 

I'm interested in what you guys are getting from your bikes

When I was commuting on my 620 I could get a consistant 55-58 mpg out of it. Thats much more than you're going to get in a car.

I don't think there is a big focus on bike mpg simply for the fact that if you doubled the fuel efficenty of every motorcycle on the road in the US, you still wouldn't put a dent in nation wide fuel usage  [laugh]

Of course we won't be changing the national use of oil, only our own.  I'm not talking about a mandatory thing either.  Just like with cars where you can get a 14 mpg corvette or a 60 mpg prius it would be nice to have a choice of a 35 mpg R-1 or a 80 - 90 mpg sport tourer.   

My S4R got about 45 mpg this weekend.  By far the best it has ever done.  Best mpg bike we own is my wife's DR650 which gets about 50 mpg.  About what you'd expect for an air cooled and carbed single. 

My M900 (w/ open airbox and Stage 2 kit on Mikunis) was giving me about 45mpg on my previous commute... mostly highway.  I can achieve that around town if I'm very easy with the throttle.

I didn't get to test it much last year since I was the morning kid hauler, but once they're home for the summer I'll be back to cycle commuting.  My sedan's averaging around 30mpg, so the reduced gas expenditures are should be notable.

Since cutting back expenses, i've started commuting on my CRF230L which gets me 70mpg.  It's not a bad option considering tires are cheap, only takes a quart of oil, a strainer for a filter and usually 4 bucks to fill up.  I do all the maint. my self so it's saving me some money, plus I get to ride!   [moto]

I've given this some more thoughts and why there isn't a MPG sport tourer and gas price might not have any affect on it:

For the individual who would ride a sport tourer, that person enjoys this type of activity too much to care about small gain in MPG.  If you are take concerned with MPG and money spend on gas, you wouldn't spend the money to buy a sport tourer in the first place.  Therefore, there is no need for the industry to spend on R&D to improve MPG.  Just add more HP and electronic gadgets.

Maybe I am over simplying things here.   :P

369lbs is heavy for a bike?  whut?

My (gone) multi 620 would get about 50-65 mpg.  The bikes are out there. 

In the latest issue of Cycle World Kevin Cameron some of the technologies that are used by the auto industry to improve gas mileage.  There is another article in the same issue discussing turbo charging.  I can't wait to see GDI or HCCI and turbo adapted into bikes.  Fuel consumption in cars is approaching that of bikes.  A bike getting 50 to 60 mpg is no longer all that impressive.