Hey guys, apologies in advance for the lengthy post, and for a potential I'd-love-to-have-your-problem thingy....
I've had my monster 796 for a little less than 6 months and I have ridden around 3500 miles. Commuting and city riding has been amazing and I have ridden to work everyday, even on rainy days. Absolute fun in the city. However, city riding only accounts for 1500+. The other 2000+ miles I was touring.
Recently, I've started to feel more tired when touring long distances (200+ mile days). My wrists get sore and my fingers get numb. Headwind also adds to the discomfort. I've found it harder to ride for more than 45 minutes. To alleviate this, I explored some options for the monster, such as a lower seat, a higher handle bar, a bigger head cowl etc... but did not come across any solution worth investing in.
Riding season is here, and I really really want to travel, two up with the misses if possible. That's when it hit me. Why not get a more comfortable bike, like a MTS 1200, and a small 125 scooter for commuting.
My dealer has a MTS 1200S Touring Edition with a DP rear top case, has less than 2000miles on it, for 1.85m JPY, i.e 20% less than the MSRP. The previous (and only) owner traded her up for a SF because he realized most of his riding was in and around town.
I asked my dealer how much he would take my monster back for, and his answer was around 650k JPY, i.e 55% of the MSPR. In other words, if I trade up, I loose 45% of what I paid, and I've only had her for six months with only around 5000 miles ridden. I was under the impression Ducatis hold their value well, but apparently I was mistaken :(
Honestly, and rationally speaking, I think a six month old, great condition, never dropped, no accidents, never even scratched, 3500 mile M796 ABS is worth more than 55% of the MSRP. I mean if I had to choose between a M796 like mine and 650k JPY, I'd choose the bike, hands down. But again, I always hear that in Japan vehicles are known to loose value significantly faster than in other countries...
So my question is, do I 1) trade her up for the MTS and get a small scooter? Or 2) keep her and buy the MTS?
Option 2, although not totally impossible, the purchase would stretch me a bit beyond my current financial means, not to mention double vehicle tax, double maintenance costs etc... but it would also mean that I don't loose 45% of what I paid for the monster after only 6 months / 3.5k miles.
Option 1, does sound like the logical choice, because, although I am having tons of daily fun commuting on the monster, touring turned out to be not as comfortable/fun on a monster as I had imagined. Feels like the fun in riding was split into daily bits, which did not leave much to the weekends and long rides. So if I'm getting the MTS anyway, maybe I don't need to be commuting on a monster, hence the 125 scooter idea.
Any thoughts/comments/criticism/ideas are welcome, and thanks :)
I don't know how it works in Japan, but in the States used vehicles have 3 different prices: trade-in value (you 'sell' your bike to the dealer), 'private' value (you sell your bike to another person), and retail (you buy a new or used bike from a dealer).
Since the trade-in value is usually significantly lower than the private value, it's better to sell your bike to someone and the use the money to buy a new one. The only reason to trade in a vehicle is if either you're in a hurry to buy or there are incentives or your old vehicle is a crapper ;)
I would suggest either keeping the monster or selling it to someone, not trading it in. As for Monster vs Scooter, I wont even go there! [cheeky]
You may have a tax credit on the sales value too that you should consider. The difference on a purchase could be substantial so do the math. Of course, this may not apply to you in Japan. I for one would buy the Multi and keep the Monster though.
I know you say "but it would also mean that I don't loose 45% of what I paid for the monster after only 6 months / 3.5k miles." but you already have lost 45% whether you trade the bike or not. The question is do you want to realize that loss. It's like owning a stock that has lost 45% since purchase. You lost the value, you just don't realize the loss until you sell. unlike a stock the 796 doesn't have a chance to climb out of the hole.
The question for me would be... Am I ok with the fact that I paid $X per month to ride a 796? If yes, then trade. If not, wait another year. Another way to look at it is... Is it worth $X (I know you're talking JPY but you get it) to cure my sore wrists and back?
Good luck w your decision. These things are tough.
it's a hobby folks. You WILL LOSE MONEY on every transaction.
Option #3: Sell the bike privately for 75% of what you paid for it.
Think of it this way... if you were looking for your bike right now and had the option of either paying full price at the dealer or paying 75% of that to a guy who (hopefully) maintained the bike like a child for 3500 miles, what would you do? I'm pretty sure I'd take the 25% off.
It's just like when kids sell their textbooks from college. You can take em to the bookstore where you bought em, and maybe get 50% back... or you can cut the next guy a deal and get a little more back.
jvax, you've got PM...
Quote from: jvax on March 06, 2011, 06:02:14 AM
Honestly, and rationally speaking, I think a six month old, great condition, never dropped, no accidents, never even scratched, 3500 mile M796 ABS is worth more than 55% of the MSRP.
of course it is, thats how they stay in business.
If you are buying the Muti from this Dealer that is only offering you 55% for your Monster , I think you should be able to negotiate another 10 % because the dealer will offer it up for resale at somewhere around 80-85% of the MSRP.
Plus it has factory warranty so it would be an attractive resale.
More so it would be attractive for a cash buyer since it's used and they are harder ( at least around here in the US ) to get financed.
Dolph [moto]
The local Duc dealers must love it when you walk thru their door ;)
I would not reward that dealer for that less-than-generous offer.
option #4: keep the monster and buy a used MTS 1200 privately. dealer schmealer. [beer]
Sold the monster. Missing her already.
Took your advice and sold privately at about 80% of the MSRP, which is much better than what the dealer offered.
Found her a very nice new home too. The guy is a fellow foreigner living in Japan and I'm convinced he'll continue to take good care of her. After all, she is the first black M796 to arrive to Japan [thumbsup]
Thanks again for the advice guys.
OTOH, I'm about to pull the trigger on the below MTS 1200S T, not the one I mentioned in my original post, but a better deal, 1 year old so 1 year left under warranty, 4000km and 35% off the MSRP.
(http://picture.goobike.com/850/8501249/J/8501249B3011042900300.jpg)
NICE!!!!!!! I am glad everything worked out and you were left with a great bike and more money in your pocket. [thumbsup]
Quote from: jvax on May 09, 2011, 02:12:19 PMOTOH, I'm about to pull the trigger on the below MTS 1200S T, not the one I mentioned in my original post, but a better deal, 1 year old so 1 year left under warranty, 4000km and 35% off the MSRP.
Much better [thumbsup]
congrats on it working out for you in selling the old bike and getting the new bike...a small nitpick or 2 I am going to point out to you FWIW, since other are hedging around it but not outright saying it...
MSRP = Manufacturers Suggested Retail Price = what the manufacturer gives a dealer as a baseline reccomendation for what their product should be listed/sold for when NEW. MSRP has NOTHING to do with used value. You will almost ALWAYS take a loss on a new vehicle when reselling it, it is extremely rare to not lose money.
Used Trade In Value = what a dealer is willing to pay for to take a vehicle in, add for time and money put into it for to make it fully 100% ready for showroom presentation for resale, accounting for time that the vehicle will sit in inventory. This means the dealership owns the unit until resale, unlike a new bike, which is usually still owned by the factory or a bank that holds the note on the floor planning of that unit until it is sold, while the dealer pays the timed interest waiting for sale by having that unit as a part of their inventory. So they are essentially gambling with their financial assets on reselling the used unit for to recoup their investment. Hence why they only offer you 45-65% of value, based loosely on how much they think they may have to put into it and how fast they can resell it.
and on your wrists hurting...that sounds like you need to ride not leaning on your hands and rotate the controls so that when in motion your wrist is inline and not bent....and as far as windblast...well...it is a naked bike, so it really kinda wasn't meant as a tourer, so you have to expect wind fatigue on long rides as a part of the package, otherwise you may have purchased the wrong kind of bike....kind of like using an awl to make a hole in something when a drill would work much better...just the wrong kind of tool for the job in terms of efficientcy.
Quote from: zooom on May 10, 2011, 04:21:45 AM
congrats on it working out for you in selling the old bike and getting the new bike...a small nitpick or 2 I am going to point out to you FWIW, since other are hedging around it but not outright saying it...
Thanks for taking the time.
Quote from: zooom on May 10, 2011, 04:21:45 AMMSRP has NOTHING to do with used value.
I'm not so sure about that.
1. The MSRP is the absolute high limit that a used* bike can be resold at. (* assuming the bike is kept as stock, no mods included, not a special collection item, and still currently manufactured.)
2. The MSRP, when widely discounted across the market, will drive down the used value.
Quote from: zooom on May 10, 2011, 04:21:45 AMYou will almost ALWAYS take a loss on a new vehicle when reselling it, it is extremely rare to not lose money.
True, and the goal is always to minimize that loss, by exploring different resale options, i.e. trade-in vs private sales.
Quote from: zooom on May 10, 2011, 04:21:45 AM
Used Trade In Value = what a dealer is willing to pay for to take a vehicle in, add for time and money put into it for to make it fully 100% ready for showroom presentation for resale, accounting for time that the vehicle will sit in inventory. This means the dealership owns the unit until resale, unlike a new bike, which is usually still owned by the factory or a bank that holds the note on the floor planning of that unit until it is sold, while the dealer pays the timed interest waiting for sale by having that unit as a part of their inventory. So they are essentially gambling with their financial assets on reselling the used unit for to recoup their investment. Hence why they only offer you 45-65% of value, based loosely on how much they think they may have to put into it and how fast they can resell it.
Yeap, this is how it is. The trade in value is the lowest of the three values a used bike can have.
"Used resell value" < "Used private resell value" < "Used trade in value"
Quote from: zooom on May 10, 2011, 04:21:45 AM
and on your wrists hurting...that sounds like you need to ride not leaning on your hands and rotate the controls so that when in motion your wrist is inline and not bent....and as far as windblast...well...it is a naked bike, so it really kinda wasn't meant as a tourer, so you have to expect wind fatigue on long rides as a part of the package, otherwise you may have purchased the wrong kind of bike....kind of like using an awl to make a hole in something when a drill would work much better...just the wrong kind of tool for the job in terms of efficientcy.
Point well taken, but hey, don't get me wrong, the monster was the right bike for 75% of my riding needs and pleasure. I just realized that I had invested in a brand new, new style monster and paid full sticker price, and only got 75% out of it in terms of experience, where I could have bought a used old style monster for a 1/3 of what I'd paid, and spared the rest towards the used multi that I'm getting. It's a price that I paid to learn my lesson, plus it was my first bike and I bought it on my 30th birthday (I call it early mid life crisis!?), so I have absolutely no regrets whatsoever.
For wrist strain and wind blast, I could have modded the bike to work around those issues, by getting a windscreen, higher handlebars, softer seat etc, but it would have defeated the purpose of the monster being a naked bike.
I loved the monster so much that I'm already in the market for a cheap used old style model, like a 750 or 900, to learn to do maintenance work on it, mod it, ride it to work and around town etc. The multi is for two-up weekend rides outside of town with the misses, solo crazy twisty rides with my buddies and for long trips.
[thumbsup]
Quote from: jvax on May 10, 2011, 03:29:36 PM
1. The MSRP is the absolute high limit that a used* bike can be resold at. (* assuming the bike is kept as stock, no mods included, not a special collection item, and still currently manufactured.)
2. The MSRP, when widely discounted across the market, will drive down the used value.
MSRP is ONLY applied to a new unit. I have never heard of a manufacturer suggesting the sale or retail pricing of a used unit. NEVER. The market of resellers are whom dictate used vehicle values. Resellers are not manufacturers, so by right of simple logic, there is no
Manufacturers[/i]
Suggested
Retail [/b]Price on a used unit.
Quote from: jvax on May 10, 2011, 03:29:36 PM
For wrist strain and wind blast, I could have modded the bike to work around those issues, by getting a windscreen, higher handlebars, softer seat etc, but it would have defeated the purpose of the monster being a naked bike.
ummm..on my old 01 street Monster 900, I did exactly that...I put dirtbike bars ( which I later added barkbusters and in the cold season some wind deflectors), a Givi A750 windscreen ( which I later switched out for a Maier branded late 70's style Japanese Cafe bubble screen set-up) and a Sargent saddle and I put almost 30,000 miles on that bike. I had a Ventura rack set-up on it for stuff and then I replaced the Silmotor high mount exhaust for an Arrow carbon highmount exhaust which nicely put that bracketry all in line with it not looking out of place. It was still a naked bike that performed flawlessly on almost everyway I used it.
(http://www.mad-ducati.com/Gallery/wmartens/G556/DSCN2917%20(Small).JPG)
2nd bike from the left...I was 2-up with my GF on this ride.
I have the Gran Canyon now as a replacement for THAT bike(similar to the one pictured to the right of my bike above), but I had to give that bike to the ex-wife in property settlement. If I still had it, I suspect I would have somewhere in the 45-50K+ milage range on it and still going...