I'm trying to adjust my valves myself, I only got to checking one cylinder today because I'm not sure of the exact 'feel' for the feeler gauges to get the right fit, so I triple checked my measurements, if not quadruple...
Here is my problem:
On my vertical cylinder intake valve my opener measured at (I think) a little tight on the .005 and really easily on the .004. So I'm calling that a .0045, which is close enough to not be too bad. However, I measured my opener at roughly .0075. That is way way waaay out of spec. Am I missing something obvious and doing it wrong, or is it possible my valves are that out of spec?
The exhaust measured at .004 on the opener and .007 on the closer. I guess my closers are just completely shot? Any advice or reinforcement greatly appreciated.
How are you measuring the closer?
Typically with closers that loose your openers would also be out of spec.
Regarding the feel of the gauge, if the feeler gauge will slide back and forth with out bending that should be your number. If the gauge binds up and buckles/bends it's big.
Bookmarked.
[coffee]
Measuring the closer by pushing down on the rocker arm with a screwdriver, putting the feeler gauge in, and subtracting by the measurement I got for the opener. Trying my best to follow the Ducati tech videos, but I've screwed things up in the past by going quickly, so trying to take this slowly and make sure I'm doing it right.
What method are you using to get your closer gap size BTW? Also are the belts on, or off?
Chris Kelly of ca-cycleworks put up some good videos on checking valves on 2v ducs.
Quote from: Sad Panda on March 17, 2011, 07:06:16 AM
What method are you using to get your closer gap size BTW? Also ate the belts on, or off?
Chris Kelly of ca-cycleworks put up some good videos on checking valves on 2v ducs.
Yup, following Chris Kelly's videos, belts are on, but I will take them off before I actually take the shims themselves off to measure them.
To really get to it, you should probably take the belts off and measure again. That way you can ensure the arms are not pressing on the cams at all - possibly giving you a mis-read.
Donnie Unger, of DucPond near-ish to me does a class on valve checks and he recommends that measurements be taken with the belts off. Since he's gotten a number of 'top-tech' awards from Ducati, it's probably sage advice.
I will try that then, planning on replacing the belts anyway. I also may have been at the 'wrong' TDC, will double check that. But not sure how both my closers could measure .005 past the largest spec if something weird wasn't going on.
Quote from: xarlo on March 17, 2011, 07:34:04 AM
I will try that then, planning on replacing the belts anyway. I also may have been at the 'wrong' TDC, will double check that. But not sure how both my closers could measure .005 past the largest spec if something weird wasn't going on.
Like I said, for the closers to be that loose your openers should be almost 0 clearance.
You need to be careful when using a screwdriver to push down on the valve. It is possible to push past the assist spring and actually flex the closing rocker which will give you a larger reading.
+1 on having the belts off to measure.
Quote from: ducpainter on March 17, 2011, 08:23:01 AM
Like I said, for the closers to be that loose your openers should be almost 0 clearance.
You need to be careful when using a screwdriver to push down on the valve. It is possible to push past the assist spring and actually flex the closing rocker which will give you a larger reading.
+1 on having the belts off to measure.
I was pushing fairly hard... any advice now how much pressure is enough... guess that wouldn't translate well to text, but I think anything would help at this point.
Quote from: xarlo on March 17, 2011, 08:30:29 AM
I was pushing fairly hard... any advice now how much pressure is enough... guess that wouldn't translate well to text, but I think anything would help at this point.
It's hard to describe, and I don't do it that way. If when pushing you really try to feel when the valve stops moving that might help. It will also help if you use the method below to gauge how hard to push.
I was taught to use the heel of my hand to determine if there is clearance. You can't really flex the rocker with your hand, and since I'm shooting for 0 closer clearance I use that and drag on the cam when rotating to make sure I don't end up with negative closer clearance. That is a very bad thing.
Just don't get frustrated and give up. It's not that hard and just takes patience.
I strongly recommend you remove the belts. It will allow you to develop feel more easily, and check your results by the drag, or lack of it, on the cam.
Xarlo, just as I suspected: You are pushing down too hard on the rockers (which is what I did the first time). TAKE YOUR TIME and just take your belts off to measure the closers. This isn't something you want to rush. Don't sweat it, your doing great.
I think this thread may have answered my question above. I think the closer that I thought was too big was me pushing too hard. it was the top front and you can get a lot of leverage on it compared to the other valves.
Here are my notes from my last service they may help.
http://620monster6kservice.blogspot.com/ (http://620monster6kservice.blogspot.com/)
Thanks guys, time has been short, all i've managed to get done since I started this is take the belts off real fast then had to run again. I'll dive back in tomorrow and see how that effects things
Well I took my belts off and tried again... no real difference.
Have only gotten to my vertical intake so far because I'm getting a little frustrated.
I measure the intake opener again at .0055.
Now either my closer is right on, or extremely loose, it is impossible for me to tell because I have nothing to judge it against. If I press lightly, I can't get any bigger feelers on top of the opener. If I press harder, the harder I press the bigger feelers I can get in. But there is no point at which there is a different feeling which would let me know I'm flexing the arm vs. getting the correct reading.
I can spin the closer shim with my fingers without putting pressure on the arm, it takes a little effort. With some pressure it spins freely, if this helps at all.
Thoughts?
Quote from: xarlo on March 23, 2011, 02:37:30 AM
Well I took my belts off and tried again... no real difference.
Have only gotten to my vertical intake so far because I'm getting a little frustrated.
I measure the intake opener again at .0055.
Now either my closer is right on, or extremely loose, it is impossible for me to tell because I have nothing to judge it against. If I press lightly, I can't get any bigger feelers on top of the opener. If I press harder, the harder I press the bigger feelers I can get in. But there is no point at which there is a different feeling which would let me know I'm flexing the arm vs. getting the correct reading.
I can spin the closer shim with my fingers without putting pressure on the arm, it takes a little effort. With some pressure it spins freely, if this helps at all.
Thoughts?
Try this...
rotate the cam back and forth slightly to see how it feels. It should be nice and smooth without any drag from the rocker. Then push down on the rocker until you just feel drag on the cam as you rotate it.
That is how hard you need to push to measure.
What he just said ^.
I'm assuming this can be done without pushing the cam over past the spring loaded portion of its travel?
I actually got so fed up with this today I put new belts on and buttoned everything back up and just figured I'd have the dealer do it. But then I got the quote, 250-350 euro... With the exchange rate today that puts it at about Eleventy billion dollars... So I may take another crack at this.
The bike has just shy of 21k miles on it, so things SHOULD be pretty close to where they are supposed to be, yes?
Quote from: xarlo on March 23, 2011, 03:53:46 PM
I'm assuming this can be done without pushing the cam over past the spring loaded portion of its travel?
I actually got so fed up with this today I put new belts on and buttoned everything back up and just figured I'd have the dealer do it. But then I got the quote, 250-350 euro... With the exchange rate today that puts it at about Eleventy billion dollars... So I may take another crack at this.
The bike has just shy of 21k miles on it, so things SHOULD be pretty close to where they are supposed to be, yes?
Yes...you just need to rotate it 15-20 degrees.
Why would you think things are right? It really depends on the tolerances the last tech went by.
Like I said earlier...don't give up. ;)
Its really hard to explain these "feel" steps on a forum.
Heres an easy way to understand this. Shift the opening rocker over to the side and take off the opening shim. With the opening rocker completely out of the way, spin the cam three full turns. If it feels like it jams up along any portion of of the spin your closer is too tight if it doesnt your closer is either too loose or perfect.
If you have a loose shim and you want to know what binding feels like, push down on top of the closing rocker arm with your thumb while spinning the shim.
Quote from: EEL on March 23, 2011, 04:22:40 PM
Its really hard to explain these "feel" steps on a forum.
Heres an easy way to understand this. Shift the opening rocker over to the side and take off the opening shim. With the opening rocker completely out of the way, spin the cam three full turns. If it feels like it jams up along any portion of of the spin your closer is too tight if it doesnt your closer is either too loose or perfect.
If you have a loose shim and you want to know what binding feels like, push down on top of the closing rocker arm with your thumb while spinning the shim.
Why would you try to turn it past the assist spring?
That will feel like binding to the uninitiated...no?
BTW.
Personal experience: Its really hard to measure the closer clearance so I usually dont measure the closer. Feel is best. Spinning the cam with tell you if its tight but not if its loose. It takes multiple iterations of valve adjustment experience to know what the perfect feel is closer without measuring.
Important characteristics of a properly adjusted closer:
If you spin the shim there's a bit of resistance. It almost feels tight. If you can spin the shim with one finger its definitely loose. My best analogy is if you drench your fingers in motor oil and grab on to the closer shim, its should be tight enough that you cant spin it, your hands would just slip around it. If you have a pair of dry, clean hands, you should be able to spin it with a moderate amount of effort.
If you meet the above criteria AND the cam is not binding when you spin it, you should be golden.
Quote from: ducpainter on March 23, 2011, 04:31:07 PM
Why would you try to turn it past the assist spring?
That will feel like binding to the uninitiated...no?
With the opener out of the way there is no resistance from the spring
Exactly! Makes life a lot easier. You dont have to deal with the drag on the opening rocker arm.
Quote from: EEL on March 23, 2011, 04:34:29 PM
BTW.
Personal experience: Its really hard to measure the closer clearance so I usually dont measure the closer. Feel is best. Spinning the cam with tell you if its tight but not if its loose. It takes multiple iterations of valve adjustment experience to know what the perfect feel is closer without measuring.
Important characteristics of a properly adjusted closer:
If you spin the shim there's a bit of resistance. It almost feels tight. If you can spin the shim with one finger its definitely loose. My best analogy is if you drench your fingers in motor oil and grab on to the closer shim, its should be tight enough that you cant spin it, your hands would just slip around it. If you have a pair of dry, clean hands, you should be able to spin it with a moderate amount of effort.
If you meet the above criteria AND the cam is not binding when you spin it, you should be golden.
That's what I was trying to explain earlier with the heel of the hand thing.
Quote from: EEL on March 23, 2011, 04:36:12 PM
Exactly! Makes life a lot easier. You dont have to deal with the drag on the opening rocker arm.
I never considered measuring the closer with the opening rocker in place. [bang] [bang] [bang] [bang]
Thanks fellas, I will try this again, waiting on a new speedo drive before I can mount my front wheel anyway, so I have some time before the thing will move anyway. Will try all the suggestions. From the descriptions so far I suspect my closer is acceptable. Luckily after everything else I've done, installing new belts seemed easy, so no big deal to take those off again.
Oh, and my comment on suspecting that things should be fairly close to how they should be; my understanding was that the more miles are on your engine the more seated your valves will be and the less they will change.
Quote from: xarlo on March 23, 2011, 11:03:01 PM
Thanks fellas, I will try this again, waiting on a new speedo drive before I can mount my front wheel anyway, so I have some time before the thing will move anyway. Will try all the suggestions. From the descriptions so far I suspect my closer is acceptable. Luckily after everything else I've done, installing new belts seemed easy, so no big deal to take those off again.
Oh, and my comment on suspecting that things should be fairly close to how they should be; my understanding was that the more miles are on your engine the more seated your valves will be and the less they will change.
That's true, but you're assuming the last adjustment was done correctly, or rather to the tolerances you'd like to see.
Valves may be seated but what I had happen at 20-24k miles was mycloser retaining shims broke into 2 pieces on my vertical head. If you end up getting new retaining clips, these will change your tolerance as they are not broken in initially and will be by your next valve adjustment interval. I ended up getting MBP collets when this happened so I wouldnt have to deal with it again.
Quote from: EEL on March 24, 2011, 06:33:27 AM
Valves may be seated but what I had happen at 20-24k miles was mycloser retaining shims broke into 2 pieces on my vertical head. If you end up getting new retaining clips, these will change your tolerance as they are not broken in initially and will be by your next valve adjustment interval. I ended up getting MBP collets when this happened so I wouldnt have to deal with it again.
Flipping the half rings will also change the clearance, and end up with a closer that is roughly .001 loose almost immediately on start up.
Not to throw a wrench in the works, but every Ducati I've ever worked on with a desmodromic valvetrain had its helper springs on the closers, not the openers. How does moving the opener over (on bikes where you can do this) relieve the pressure of the helper spring on the closing rocker?
Just curious.
Cloner
ABQ, NM
Quote from: Cloner on March 25, 2011, 02:23:23 PM
Not to throw a wrench in the works, but every Ducati I've ever worked on with a desmodromic valvetrain had its helper springs on the closers, not the openers. How does moving the opener over (on bikes where you can do this) relieve the pressure of the helper spring on the closing rocker?
Just curious.
Cloner
ABQ, NM
I dont know if I can explain it right but I'll try. I will state the obvious first:
If you spin the cam a full 180 degrees with the opening rocker arm in place, you push the valve open. The valve drops down.
In order for the valve to drop the closing rocker arm has to move down in unison. At this point the spring is in tension because it wants to go back to its normal state (closed). There is resistance there.
With the opening rocker arm out of the way, you valve never needs to drop down. So the only drag is from the closer shim being too tight. You can literally spin the cam with one finger with the opening rocker arm shoved to the side. If it drags you will feel it.
(http://www.engr.colostate.edu/~dga/mech324/handouts/cam_stuff/Ducati_desmodromic_cam_animation.gif)
Thanks again for all your feedback and helpful advice.
My adjustment is finally complete. My openers are all at .004s and .005s won't slide under. All my closers are very close to 0 with no drag on the cam.
So I learned somethings I wanted to share.
When you are measuring shims make sure your caliper and micrometer are clean and all pieces are clean. Oil and other things can throw off your numbers when you are talking that precise measuring.
Take the time to write everything down because there is planning needed to make sure you get the right shims. The first time. Huge thanks to Mike at EMSduc!!!!!!!!! http://www.emsduc.com/ (http://www.emsduc.com/)
Sanding I found that marking the shim with a sharpie and sanding in a circle rotating it every circle 90 degrees based on the mark worked better for me then doing 8s
Also I found that with 400 / 800 paper I had to change it a lot or I spent a lot of time sanding with no results.
Since all the openers were out of the bike I found that rubber bands worked the best for me to keep the valves up but you have to be careful.
As for the half rings, it took me a while to figure the position of those but after getting a lighted magnify glass from sears and really looking you start spot the wear marks and know the ones on the inside go up.
Just plan on having the closers on and off a lot. I did my math to get to 0 clearance and every time the cam would bind and it would take 2 or 3 tries to get it just right.
Another thing I found was that even though I was spinning the shim in the caliper to make sure it was square make sure to spin the closers once on the bike. 3 of my closers I could get a .005 under very tight when pushing on the helper spring (which probably makes then .0005?) but one of them was just loose enough not to drag. I found that when rotated just right the cam would drag leading me to believe it was out of square a tiny tiny bit. I then tried to find a high spot but couldn't see anything by twisting it in the caliper so I sanded till it would not drag at all in any position.
I hope some of these things may help the next guy or girl doing an adjustment on a 2v.
I can't wait to get get my belts back on tonight and change my oil this weekend because I'm going to finally get my PCIII tuned correctly.
Thanks again
I see what you're saying, EEL. Like Ducpainter, I "measure" with the opening rocker dislodged, but I couldn't understand what folks meant when they said it removed the spring pressure. I guess you're saying it removes all pressure, and thereby friction, from the opener, n'est pas?
Sounds like you got her sorted well, K3V1N. Good on ya, Mate!