I would like some advice, based the values below should I adjust anything and do you think if I had the work done by a ducati tech they would? Also will I notice the motor running rougher based on the gaps? I know they are all with in acceptable range but I don't mind taking the time to get them closer if it will make a difference.
Top cylinder
Intake opener .003 (but .004 will fit) / closer .006
Exhaust opener .004 / closer .006
Front cylinder
Intake opener .004 / closer .007 (.008 will fit)
Exhaust opener .003 (but .004 will fit) / closer .006
The only valve I was thinking about adjusting was the front intake closer.
Thanks for any advice on this!
Those closer numbers seem awful big. By what method did you get those numbers?
Thanks for the reply,
Sorry I should have been more clear. The values for the closers are in inches measured at the opener gap when pressure is applied to the closer arm. So .006 is really a .002 closer gap which is 0.05mm.
That puts the larger gapped closer that I'm thinking about adjusting to .003" or 0.17mm but since the .008 can be jammed in it might be a tiny bit larger that .003 gap.
Quote from: K3V1N on March 22, 2011, 07:47:32 AM
Sorry I should have been more clear. The values for the closers are in inches measured at the opener gap when pressure is applied to the closer arm. So .006 is really a .002 closer gap which is 0.05mm.
Ok - lots better.
Yeah that front intake close is headed towards the upper end. Still within specs which are .001-.0078" for a 2v
Did you take your measurements with the belts off? If not, take the belts off and measure again - you want no load on the cam which is something you can only be sure of with the belts off.
.007 is ludicrous for a closer on a 2V.
Dp he just wrote the feeler sizes without the maths. It's only .003 on that closer
Quote from: K3V1N on March 22, 2011, 07:01:11 AM
Front cylinder
Intake opener .004 / closer .007 (.008 will fit) = .003"
Exhaust opener .003 (but .004 will fit) / closer .006
Quote from: Sad Panda on March 22, 2011, 08:12:11 AM
Dp he just wrote the feeler sizes without the maths. It's only .003 on that closer
I'm talking about the 'spec' you posted. ;)
Oh, that's Ducati recommended clearances as written in LT Snyders manual. Of course he notes that he aims for <.002" on the closers and .004" for the openers
I think maybe my question about the big opener was answered in another post. I think because it was the top valve in the front I may have been pushing on it too hard. So I guess my next question is would you do anything about a valve that it .0035 opener and .0025 closer?
Quote from: Sad Panda on March 22, 2011, 08:21:54 AM
Oh, that's Ducati recommended clearances as written in LT Snyders manual. Of course he notes that he aims for <.002" on the closers and .004" for the openers
Ever consider why Ducati all of a sudden changed a spec on a clearance without making any changes to design or materials?
I know and like LT, but I disagree.
Closers on a 2V should be between 0 and .0005...or no drag when rotating the cam.
From recent experience, no... Just did my valve and sanded down an .0025 opener. I've got a closer at .003 than I didn't mess with (though I could have been pushing a bit hard)... But i'm going to keep an eye on it
Thats for the feedback. I'm going to check that top closer to make sure that I stop pushing on it when the spring bottoms. If that brings the value to .002 then I'm going to leave the 2 other valves that are at .0035 opener and .0025 closer.
I agree that the closers at 0 to .05 probably would make a little difference but the first time the valves where checked at 6400k the valves were all at .004 open and .002 so I can't imagine they were all at 0 new and with my avg mileage I will have to do this again in the fall so maybe then I will replace all the closers.
apparently the reasoning on the change in spec i learned while getting some 'field experience' was that Ducati changed the spec so there would be less wear on rockers / cams / etc and stretch the useable time for each shim - all trying to reduce costs to the owner. That was the 'gist' of the logic I was told during my 'learning time'
Quote from: j v on March 22, 2011, 10:13:49 AM
apparently the reasoning on the change in spec i learned while getting some 'field experience' was that Ducati changed the spec so there would be less wear on rockers / cams / etc and stretch the useable time for each shim - all trying to reduce costs to the owner. That was the 'gist' of the logic I was told during my 'learning time'
I've heard it suggested that it was strictly to reduce cost, and the qualifications of the available techs.
If you don't believe me, take the time to actually adjust to as close to 0 as possible, and see if the bike doesn't idle smoother and have better throttle response.
Assuming of course the throttle bodies are synched and the fueling is otherwise correct.
well that last part is 'the pregnant dog', now isn't it.
I agree completely that Ducati opened up the range of acceptable valve clearances, and increased the major maintenance intervals from 6k to 7.5k miles, so that they could claim reduced operating cost to the customer.
What they neglected to tell you about was the reduction in performance that goes along with that.
A case of not getting what you don't pay for.
Thanks again for the advice. Once my valves and belts are set I'm taking my little monster to the dyno to finally get a custom tune on my PCIII. I'm glad to hear from you guys that it should make a difference in how the bike runs. I'm currently running a canned map from the PC site. I'm going to stick to .004 / .002 for the valves this time but next time I'll plan to wait for shims and try to get all the shims to .0 on the closers.
I thought it was very cool that the tuner I talked to wanted to know my commuting rpm range so that he could get my more miles out of a tank while still making sure full throttle gave me full power.
while that helps, if you change gearing ratios, it can be a bit off. He's going to lean it out in that rev range - so pick a lower one, and keep an eyeball on temps and whatnot - too lean is badnewsbears.
don't know if you have the adj. cam pulleys on your bike (i think you posted somewhere you had a 620 or 695), but if you do - check them for correctness while you are monkeying around on the bike. if you don't have 'em, then no worries.
The cam pulleys have 3 bolts in them. Does that mean they are adjustable?
They look like the one in this photo. I didn't think they were adjustable. http://shop.bevelheaven.com/images/cam_6.jpg (http://shop.bevelheaven.com/images/cam_6.jpg)
I have a 14 in the front and like that setup but I will watch it doesn't show signs of being too lean. I put 6k on the canned map that looked odd, lots of big shifts in the number.
It seems to run fine even though it smells a little rich at times. I hope I notice the difference after the tune. I did use some range on a tank of fuel after the install.
Quote from: K3V1N on March 22, 2011, 12:59:07 PM
Thanks again for the advice. Once my valves and belts are set I'm taking my little monster to the dyno to finally get a custom tune on my PCIII. I'm glad to hear from you guys that it should make a difference in how the bike runs. I'm currently running a canned map from the PC site. I'm going to stick to .004 / .002 for the valves this time but next time I'll plan to wait for shims and try to get all the shims to .0 on the closers.
I thought it was very cool that the tuner I talked to wanted to know my commuting rpm range so that he could get my more miles out of a tank while still making sure full throttle gave me full power.
You are doing yourself a disservice by paying for the dyno tune with the closers that loose. When you tighten them up it will change the CO and probably the HC levels also and the fueling will no longer be optimum.
Just sayin'.
Your pulleys are adjustable, but setting them by the factory procedure is not the same as degreeing the cams.
I haven't remapped a 2v yet, but on other bikes I've gotten big mpg improvements by leaning out quite a bit at smallish throttle openings and higher rpms - where you'd be for typical commuting. Its not so critical to lean out a particular, narrow rpm band, but just the % throttle that you'll be using to maintain speed. No heat problems as the motor at low % throttle openings isn't working hard. My TL did 33mpg on a good day stock. It did 42mpg consistently after I remapped it this way (also ran much better and did quite well at a dyno day).
Hey ducpainter,
I agree that changing the closers could change the fueling and you know way more about these bike then I will ever.
I do have a question for you. If I was the first to adjust the valves on this bike and they were at .004 opener and .002 closer then my guess is they is how it left the factory. Now without a tune if I change the closers all to .000 wouldn't that effect how the bike was tuned from the factory the same as it would if I went from .000 to .002 after a PCIII tune?
So I should ether go to .000 now before the tune or always stick with the factory setting of .002 for the closer? Just curious
Ether way I hope to get a S2R sometime this season so I will only probably put another 5 to 8k on this bike tops.
Thanks for all of your advice
Quote from: K3V1N on March 23, 2011, 07:54:10 AM
Hey ducpainter,
I agree that changing the closers could change the fueling and you know way more about these bike then I will ever.
I do have a question for you. If I was the first to adjust the valves on this bike and they were at .004 opener and .002 closer then my guess is they is how it left the factory. Now without a tune if I change the closers all to .000 wouldn't that effect how the bike was tuned from the factory the same as it would if I went from .000 to .002 after a PCIII tune?
So I should ether go to .000 now before the tune or always stick with the factory setting of .002 for the closer? Just curious
Ether way I hope to get a S2R sometime this season so I will only probably put another 5 to 8k on this bike tops.
Thanks for all of your advice
I doubt your bike left the factory with those clearances. Typically in the first 6K the closers will tighten and the openers will loosen. That is from normal seating of the valve surfaces and the wearing in of the half rings. That is why the clearances change. It is not from shim wear.
The bikes really do run better with closers at 0, or as close as you can get them to 0, and with openers set at .004 intake and .005 exhaust.
You will find that as the mileage builds your adjustments will become smaller and less frequent as the valve surfaces fully mate. If you kept the bike to 18K you may check them and find you have one or two closers that are loose and decide at that point...ahh screw it. The bike won't self-destruct.
I would have it mapped with optimal clearances if it were my bike, but it will probably run fine with the clearances you have now...it just could run better.
When you re-install your half rings make sure you put them back in the same way they came out or your closer gap will loosen as soon as you start the bike.
So why would Ducati set the minimum - not maximum, closer clearance to .002". This would not extend the service interval. Closer clearance only goes bigger.
Ducati set the minimum closer clearance to 0.000 i both the 06 and 07 workshop manuals.
Quote from: ducpainter on March 23, 2011, 08:08:26 AM
I doubt your bike left the factory with those clearances. Typically in the first 6K the closers will tighten and the openers will loosen. <snip>
I screwed up...
It is exactly the opposite, The closers will loosen and the openers tighten.
Sorry.
SO!
I moved forward and pulled all the shims to measure and set them to 0 and I have a new issue. One of my keepers was broken!
Now do I replace them all at this point and then how do I account for the keeper break in which I have read is as much as .001 in the first 1000 miles?
Also one more question about this I don't get. When checking the valves with the belt off. You need to move the cam pulley back and forth a little to get the arm to be in the loose position like described in videos and tutorials. How could you ever get a clear reading of the gaps with the belts on at TDC?
Thanks again for the advice
You really can't do much about the new half ring break in because you absolutely can't preload the rocker....bad things happen.
Get it as close to zero as possible and just know that that valve will be at least .001 loose at the next check
The measurement on the horizontal should work with the belts on or off although belts off is easier.
The vertical cyl is not at tdc with the marks aligned. You have to rotate the motor so the mark on the layshaft is at roughly 3 o'clock.
I just mean that then the belts are off there is maybe 15 or 20 degrees of turn in the cam where there is no tension. I find that at one end of that turn the exhaust valve is loose and at the other the intake side is loose. I guess maybe if it was right in the middle or at the mark with the belt on they both would be loose?
Do you guys replace them all when one keeper breaks?
I guess I need to order a measuring tool from emsduc now? so I can measure what I have and order new closers?
Put the cam in the middle of the zone where it turns freely, then measure the clearances.
Replace the half-rings/keepers in pairs on whichever valves have broken ones.
Yes, get a measuring tool.
Agree with Speeddog. Replace half-rings in pairs. And definitely get the tool. You can measure without it, but it's much easier to make a mistake.
However, if you've got all the shims removed for measurment....and they're all loose...might as well get a set of MBP collets. They don't break as easily as the factory half rings and they don't flatten like the factory bits, either, which generally means the bikes holds its adjustment better. You can get those from MBP or Ca-cycleworks or wherever fine Ducati parts are sold. [thumbsup]
Lots of good advice in this thread!
Cloner
ABQ, NM
Quote from: Cloner on March 25, 2011, 02:31:55 PM
Agree with Speeddog. Replace half-rings in pairs. And definitely get the tool. You can measure without it, but it's much easier to make a mistake.
However, if you've got all the shims removed for measurment....and they're all loose...might as well get a set of MBP collets. They don't break as easily as the factory half rings and they don't flatten like the factory bits, either, which generally means the bikes holds its adjustment better. You can get those from MBP or Ca-cycleworks or wherever fine Ducati parts are sold. [thumbsup]
Lots of good advice in this thread!
Cloner
ABQ, NM
Personally I think they're a waste of money...
I'm cheap. ;)
Also, if you've got loose closers get new shims from EMS Duc. Theirs are harder then the stock ducati shims and dont mushroom. If you pull your OEM shims and look inside with a magnifying glass, you'll notice a lip has formed on the inside ridge of your OEM shim. Just like your half ring gets smashed down on one side, the closer shim forms an indent on the retainer seat. This also affects clearance.
Mike at EMS duc has been providing shims at a cheaper price than Ducati for years and at a better quality and they're only 8-10 bucks a piece.If you want to bullet proof your valve adjustment interval - get EMS shims with MBP collets after 20k miles on your bike, then you dont have to worry about :
1) broken half rings which when replaced, will change your clearance by the next interval (once they smash down)
2) which way the half rings go (MBP collets are one directional)
3) clearance changes on half rings (MBP's are high grade steel and dont dimple)
4) mushrooming on closer shims (resulting in clearance changes)
Considering how much people spend on random bits of useless carbon fiber, I'd rather spend a 125 bucks on collets and max 40 bucks on new closers, actually extend my maintenance intervals (not a fictitous interval increase that ducati mentions) and not have to worry about the BS noted above
I don't consider myself cheap, I consider myself frugal.. ;)
Thanks again for all the advice!
I was in contact with Mike at EMS and he was super helpful. I received the 10mm measuring piece Saturday. I'm now measuring my closers and am surprised at how different the measurements are compared to what is marked on the side.
To the point where I want to measure everything again tonight before I order closers and half rings.
If the bike was anything other than a 620 that I commute, take on trips and will most likely replace in a year I would definitely have gone with the MBPs.
I do have one question I'm measuring with a very nice inches caliper and converting everything (iphone). Is this going to cause any issues as long as I keep my numbers straight?
Also does anyone know a good site or have good advice on how to make sure the half rings get put back in correctly?
I know that the cuts have to go a curtain way and there is a flatter side but I'm going to have to figure that out since I forget from my last adjustment.
I have been told to use a special magnet tool to remove or place them and draw a grid on paper with labels, put them in the correct up/down orientation into their "box" while you are working.
A tool like this:
(http://desmo-valvola-servizio.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/dvs-collet.jpg)
From here:
http://desmo-valvola-servizio.com/?page_id=46 (http://desmo-valvola-servizio.com/?page_id=46)