Maybe im crazy but.....
With the prices of dyno tuning a pc3 with questionable results from several shops, i feel like it would be more cost effective and fun(or infuriating as all hell) to do this myself.
My plan:
purchase an A/F ratio gauge and an o2 sensor. hook up my computer to my PC3usb while its running. adjust accordingly to A/F display and throttle displayed on computer. using a custom map or something similar to what i have set up on my bike, i can modify it to give me the desired results. Obv i will not get a HP and torque reading, but ill know that my A/F is spot on and in theory should give me close to optimum HP and torque anyway. I plan on getting some fun out of this so its not just a way for me to save money(altho that def was the initial motivation) and i can use this technique on my other motorcycles as well.
Setup:
With the PC3 already in the bike and the s2r 800 already having 12mm bungs for o2 sensors on both pipes pre-cat, the only thing i would need to do is purchase a universal 12mm o2 sensor(or a standard 18mm if i cant find it, along with a 12mm to 18mm adapter) and an air/fuel gauge. i can either suspend the rear end off the ground or place the rear wheel on some kind of roller if i need to create some kind of load on the engine when im trying to tune the higher rpms(this is probably going to be the hardest part of the tuning).
just an idea ive been looking into, but i feel like this could be a fun project with some excellent results if everything works out. Any words of wisdom/criticism/ridicule are welcome.
-Bob
[drink]
Let me know if you find a (cheap) narrowband sensor for the small bungs.
When I had an RB3, i tuned it myself. I litterally rode the bike, and added or subtracted fuel until the bike ran nice. It took a long ass time (several weeks of riding) because the map is not only RPM based but TPS based, and you can do it easily for RPMs, but not for TPS.
You would need some method to figure out what Percentage Throttle opening you are at. Mapping is done at Percentages of throttle opening on one axis and RPM on another axis, it could be done, but very time consuming. You would also have to have a ton of fans to keep that puppy cool because it will get hot with a quickness.
with the PC3 connected to the laptop i can get a real time throttle position reading. as for the o2 sensor, i feel like the 18mm with a 12 to 18 adapter will be the route im going. adapters go for around 30 and then a o2 sensor is ~60.i plan on this being an all weekend ordeal if not longer as obv i cant let the engine over heat while tuning it.
Yes you can, but this does not indicate load. Throttle position is not the same in neutral at 3K as it is going up a 6% grade at 3k. You would need wide band O2 sensors and a data logger or http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander/products/AutoTune/powercommander_autotune.aspx (http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander/products/AutoTune/powercommander_autotune.aspx)
if it is available for your bike.
You can play with this:
http://www.buckeyetriumphs.org/technical/Carbs/AFMonitor/AFMonitor.htm (http://www.buckeyetriumphs.org/technical/Carbs/AFMonitor/AFMonitor.htm)
Doable if you can get cheap sensors.
Quote from: howie on April 12, 2011, 08:42:47 PM
Yes you can, but this does not indicate load. Throttle position is not the same in neutral at 3K as it is going up a 6% grade at 3k. You would need wide band O2 sensors and a data logger or http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander/products/AutoTune/powercommander_autotune.aspx (http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander/products/AutoTune/powercommander_autotune.aspx)
if it is available for your bike.
im not sure i follow this logic. the throttle position is dependent only on the throttle position at the handle bar, not any load on the engine. if you throttle the bike to 5k and let go and it let it go the butterflys will close. if you throttle the bike to 5k on the highway, and let go going, 70mph the butterflys will close. please correct me if im wrong as im more fluent in carbs than FI, but this is the logic that makes sense to me. i could also be completely misreading what you wrote as well.
looks like this may be a really good option here:
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/lm2.php (http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/lm2.php)
i could even put it on my pocket and ride with it to pull data in real world scenarios. can log the A/F RPM and i believe throttle position can be set up too(will be looking into this with them) and then downloaded to a PC and displayed with bundled software. looking in the neighborhood of 400 all said and done, but thats about what it would cost min for one dyno setup at the shops around here.
update: went ahead and purchased the bigger kit with all the extra goodies. can realtime display all the necessary measurements (af rpm tps) via the handheld or laptop via handheld and can also record 40+ minutes of data on the handheld, so i can go ride the bike around and get street data as well. this *hopefully* should make tuning simpler and much more cost effective. i can also use the o2 sensors on my carbed bikes to tune them as well.
Are the comps on any of these bikes self learning? Say you want xx a/f at this point of rpm n throttle. Then when more load, temp or mods change things it'll automatically adjust for it?..
stock comps? no. the PCV has an addon o2 sensor that will update on the fly (i believe) but is only available for the newer ducatis.
Quote from: corvtt1969 on April 13, 2011, 06:35:27 AM
im not sure i follow this logic. the throttle position is dependent only on the throttle position at the handle bar, not any load on the engine. if you throttle the bike to 5k and let go and it let it go the butterflys will close. if you throttle the bike to 5k on the highway, and let go going, 70mph the butterflys will close. please correct me if im wrong as im more fluent in carbs than FI, but this is the logic that makes sense to me. i could also be completely misreading what you wrote as well.
Note throttle opening in neutral 4k RPM. Then note the throttle opening needed to maintain 4k in Fourth gear on a flat road. Now go find a 6% grade and see what the throttle opening is while maintaining 4K in fourth gear while climbing the grade. Finally go find a 230 lb passenger to ride cup cake while maintaining 4K RPM in the same gear up The same 6% grade. Very little throttle is needed to maintain 4K in neutral. A little more to maintain speed on a flat road. Notably more going up a 6% grade. You might approach, actually reach full throttle or even downshift to make it up the hill. Higher load at a particular throttle opening requires more fuel. A carburetor does this by vacuum signal. The fuel injection on your bike does this by comparing throttle opening and RPM. Wider the throttle opening at a particular RPM indicates higher load, therefore more fuel is needed. The quantity of fuel is controlled by ''duty cycle", or how long the injector stays opened.
Quote from: howie on April 13, 2011, 11:06:37 AM
Note throttle opening in neutral 4k RPM. Then note the throttle opening needed to maintain 4k in Fourth gear on a flat road. Now go find a 6% grade and see what the throttle opening is while maintaining 4K in fourth gear while climbing the grade. Finally go find a 230 lb passenger to ride cup cake while maintaining 4K RPM in the same gear up The same 6% grade. Very little throttle is needed to maintain 4K in neutral. A little more to maintain speed on a flat road. Notably more going up a 6% grade. You might approach, actually reach full throttle or even downshift to make it up the hill. Higher load at a particular throttle opening requires more fuel. A carburetor does this by vacuum signal. The fuel injection on your bike does this by comparing throttle opening and RPM. Wider the throttle opening at a particular RPM indicates higher load, therefore more fuel is needed. The quantity of fuel is controlled by ''duty cycle", or how long the injector stays opened.
that makes sense, but what im confused on is why you think it needs a load? if that was the case youd have to have count of maps to account for every possible scenario of a grade on a hill to riding with a passenger to riding down a hill, etc for every combination of rpm vs %throttle. the load should only slow the rate down of the engine acceleration because of the increased inertia from the added weight.
if i can successfully get a/f readings at all rpms for a set %throttle, either by running the bike out of gear, or in a high gear(5th or 6th to slow the rpm change at low engine speeds with high throttle) i dont see how that wouldnt be sufficient regardless of load.
im no fuel injection expert and am more than willing to learn, but i dont see the need for load. i can only see the load as helpful in getting some of the readings but not necessary.
ultimately this discussion is all in theory as the unit i bought will let me ride the bike and record readings. so i will be using readings generated from me riding on the bike on the street. but i would like to clarify this for my own knowledge and further understanding.
Can you map 2000 RPM and 95% throttle in neutral?
Quote from: battlecry on April 13, 2011, 01:15:39 PM
Can you map 2000 RPM and 95% throttle in neutral?
yes, in theory.
i understand the application of load to assist mapping different RPMvsTP but, in theory its not necessary.
as i stated above, in reality ill be using a combination of sensors to record data while riding the bike (under load obv)
im an engineer, and 90% of my experience/work is theoretical and unfortunately thats how my brain runs sometimes. im just trying to understand from a theory perspective.
>>Can you map 2000 RPM and 95% throttle in neutral?
>>
>>yes, in theory.
there is no possible way, and you really don't understand what howie is talking about. you cannot do anything free revving an engine in neutral. you will need to ride it with the logger and what that will show you is how little of the time you can spend at high throttle openings in most situations. you'll need to be out on a quiet road with lots of corners and therefore speed and throttle openings variations to get log data that is of any use. it does work very well mapping this way, but you cannot do anything in neutral.
take a laptop and make yourself spreadsheets so you can interpret the data logs on the road side and make a new pc3 map while riding. you'll find some parts of the map impossible to hit, so you just don't worry about them.