Anybody wanna take a stab at what the hell this is?
It dropped out with the drain plug, and is steel as it sticks to it. I'd say it qualifies as a bit more than a "shaving."
Bike is '02 998 with 10,635 miles on the clock.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/zarn02/Prize01.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/zarn02/Prize02.jpg)
You really wanna hear what it looks like to me? :-\
I doubt it.
But... I probably should.
Quote from: zarn02 on April 16, 2011, 02:28:42 PM
I doubt it.
But... I probably should.
I don't really want to say...I hope I'm wrong...
but it looks like a piece of a steel bearing cage...you know the part that keeps the balls properly spaced and in place.
Anything on the sump screen?
Can you take a pic from a different angle or two?
Quote from: ducpainter on April 16, 2011, 02:57:18 PM
Anything on the sump screen?
Weeeelllllll.... rather embarrassingly, I discovered I don't own a 14mm Allen wrench. After I began my oil change. I'm as unimpressed with this as you are.
Sears also doesn't own one. :P
Quote from: Speeddog on April 16, 2011, 03:05:57 PM
Can you take a pic from a different angle or two?
Here's more pictures.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/zarn02/Prize03.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/zarn02/Prize04.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/zarn02/Prize06.jpg)
Quote from: zarn02 on April 16, 2011, 04:04:45 PM
Weeeelllllll.... rather embarrassingly, I discovered I don't own a 14mm Allen wrench. After I began my oil change. I'm as unimpressed with this as you are.
Sears also doesn't own one. :P
I don't either...
I have a 9/16" that is mildly relieved to kinda hold the front axle on my 96 monster.
No worries.
Quote from: ducpainter on April 16, 2011, 02:57:18 PM
but it looks like a piece of a steel bearing cage...you know the part that keeps the balls properly spaced and in place.
How does one inspect for this?
(What I don't want to hear, but suspect I will, is "split the cases." :-\)
Quote from: zarn02 on April 16, 2011, 04:20:47 PM
How does one inspect for this?
(What I don't want to hear, but suspect I will, is "split the cases." :-\)
I had a whole post typed out...
all trying to make you feel better...
you could pull side covers to see what you could see...
but unless it's the bearing in the left side cover...
the repair is accomplished by splitting the cases...
or you could run it and see what happens.
Looks like part of a shim washer for the crank (between the crank and main bearing).
Or from a shift drum shim washer.
IMO, the likelihood that it's repairable without splitting the cases is small.
If I were faced with that object on my drainplug magnet, I'd take both sidecovers off to see WTF was going on.
Quote from: Speeddog on April 16, 2011, 05:21:52 PM
Looks like part of a shim washer for the crank (between the crank and main bearing).
Or from a shift drum shim washer.
IMO, the likelihood that it's repairable without splitting the cases is small.
If I were faced with that object on my drainplug magnet, I'd take both sidecovers off to see WTF was going on.
You are talking about the shim that is right behind the drive gear marked #11 on the attached diagram right? Would/could it have shredded due the Crank Key sheering off and backing into it?
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd58/gothamcycles/schematics/14620651B_15820091A.jpg (http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd58/gothamcycles/schematics/14620651B_15820091A.jpg)
That's the shim I'm referring to, but it goes between the main bearing and the crank.
I'm with Speeddog. It looks like a spacer shim of some sort.
These are commonly used to take up manufacturing tolerances (eliminating end play) in areas like cranks, shift forks, transmission assemblies, cam assemblies, etc. They are often employed as combination spacers and thrust washers.
I'm not familiar enough with Ducati engine internals to guess where it might have originated, but am very familiar with general motorcycle engine design/repair and belive that's what you've found. You'll want to determine its origin before running this engine more. The consequences of failure of this type of component are often extreme due to the nature of metal parts running around in areas where they shouldn't be in combination with unrestrained end play and/or thrust loads.
Quote from: ducpainter on April 16, 2011, 02:57:18 PM
I don't really want to say...I hope I'm wrong...
but it looks like a piece of a steel bearing cage...you know the part that keeps the balls properly spaced and in place.
Anything on the sump screen?
+1 to the above. I did the same repair to a 996 motor a few years back. It was from the transmission input shaft RH bearing in the case. Had to split the cases to take care of it....
Also, a +1 to inspecting what all else is in the sump screen.
Finally tracked down a 14mm allen, and pulled the screen.
These bits aren't picked up by a magnet.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/zarn02/Screen01.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v232/zarn02/Screen02.jpg)
Those are some fairly large chunks.
At this point you now have two options:
1) Put oil in it, pretend it didn't happen, ride it for another 500 miles until it really fails (possibly draining your wallet further),
or 2) Pull the covers and see what's going on...
Quote from: zarn02 on April 16, 2011, 04:04:45 PM
Weeeelllllll.... rather embarrassingly, I discovered I don't own a 14mm Allen wrench. After I began my oil change. I'm as unimpressed with this as you are.
Sears also doesn't own one. :P
AutoZone sells them.
Something came apart. I would not start that motor until I identified what it was.
Quote from: nomadwarmachine on April 19, 2011, 09:59:00 AM
Something came apart. I would not start that motor until I identified what it was.
Certainly not planning on it.
At the moment I'm waiting on some tools I need, and a shop manual. I'll then pull some covers, have a look-see, and decide if I feel talented enough to have a go at this myself, or if I'm going to put everything back together and take it to a shop.
My concerns with doing it myself, apart from the fact I've not done this before, is whether I'll have all the tools I need, and whether I can suss out a good workspace for the project.
Engines get a lot lighter when you pull the heads and cylinders off.
Do it in your kitchen.
[thumbsup]
I don't see anything on that sump that's too far out of the ordinary... The bearing shell partial, however... Now that IS definitely OUT of the ordinary! [thumbsdown]
I guess I would go fishing through the drained oil and see what you come up with. Just because you have a piece on the magnet doesn't mean that thats all. Those magnets are kinda weak. Have you felt any non familiar vibrations or have any thought that something is different?
Getting at the problem is proving somewhat more difficult than I'd hoped.
Apparently former owner, and/or his mech, employed gorillas to tighten bolts.
I have so far rounded out one 5mm trying to get it out (clutch slave), and broken the end off my 4mm trying to remove the alternator cover.
The clutch springs were also way over-torqued.
(Frustration mounts, and a sadness grows in Zarn's heart...)
Get a manual impact driver, it will become your new best friend
+1 on the impact driver. I had an old Kawasaki many moons ago that was held together by phillpshead screws. They were a bear to get out and took pleasure in stripping.
Don't get disheartened; you will get there.
Quote from: Dan on April 21, 2011, 02:49:21 PM
Get a manual impact driver, it will become your new best friend
My mech friend just got done telling me the exact same thing. [laugh]
So off to Sears we go...
Depending on your budged, a cordless impact with a 1/4 hex drive absolutely rocks.
DeWalt makes a nice one, but I'm partial to Bosch. It hits harder ;)
LINK (http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=bosch+impact+driver&cp=13&qe=Ym9zY2ggaW1wYWN0IA&qesig=3qiez-nPgx7k9lQnD9q2AQ&pkc=AFgZ2tmtR4JCTNpp-SmjOmX9S1qlsawkCYOyj8zzUjnyFp06TLgf-5q1ghts8rs-4fmwPwI-_ciW1rA_6NOFSrKCkVUT2ubzGg&safe=off&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=7616086760876398289&sa=X&ei=kaiwTeuRDIn4gAf7pO3tCw&sqi=2&ved=0CDYQ8wIwAg#)
Quote from: Monsterlover on April 21, 2011, 02:59:11 PM
Depending on your budged, a cordless impact with a 1/4 hex drive absolutely rocks.
DeWalt makes a nice one, but I'm partial to Bosch. It hits harder ;)
LINK (http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=bosch+impact+driver&cp=13&qe=Ym9zY2ggaW1wYWN0IA&qesig=3qiez-nPgx7k9lQnD9q2AQ&pkc=AFgZ2tmtR4JCTNpp-SmjOmX9S1qlsawkCYOyj8zzUjnyFp06TLgf-5q1ghts8rs-4fmwPwI-_ciW1rA_6NOFSrKCkVUT2ubzGg&safe=off&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=7616086760876398289&sa=X&ei=kaiwTeuRDIn4gAf7pO3tCw&sqi=2&ved=0CDYQ8wIwAg#)
Not the best for breaking small stuck fasteners loose IMO...I always strip them out with one of those.
Stick with the old tried and true hand impact.
Quote from: Monsterlover on April 21, 2011, 02:59:11 PM
Depending on your budged, a cordless impact with a 1/4 hex drive absolutely rocks.
DeWalt makes a nice one, but I'm partial to Bosch. It hits harder ;)
LINK (http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&sugexp=ldymls&xhr=t&q=bosch+impact+driver&cp=13&qe=Ym9zY2ggaW1wYWN0IA&qesig=3qiez-nPgx7k9lQnD9q2AQ&pkc=AFgZ2tmtR4JCTNpp-SmjOmX9S1qlsawkCYOyj8zzUjnyFp06TLgf-5q1ghts8rs-4fmwPwI-_ciW1rA_6NOFSrKCkVUT2ubzGg&safe=off&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=7616086760876398289&sa=X&ei=kaiwTeuRDIn4gAf7pO3tCw&sqi=2&ved=0CDYQ8wIwAg#)
Those are great, but for really frozen ones the hammer on the end of the manual driver really helps
Quote from: ducpainter on April 21, 2011, 03:02:05 PM
Not the best for breaking small stuck fasteners loose IMO...I always strip them out with one of those.
Stick with the old tried and true hand impact.
You're doing something wrong then. Correct driver for the fastener?
They're designed for this sort of thing.
I don't even own a hammer driven impact. I've taken apart whole bikes with mine. Except for engine, swing arm and axle bolts/nuts, it won't do those.
Hello.
Beeing totally new to this forum, I'd first like to say hello to everybody, glad to be here.
I joined after a friend and fellow member of the swedish Ducati club and Monster owner pointed me this way due to some drain plug findings that looked pretty much similiar to what I found when draining the oil a few weeks back (see picture).
(http://i855.photobucket.com/albums/ab117/Monsterhpd/DSC_0543.jpg)
The shim remains (?) were stuck to the magnetic plug, and some alu grain (as opposed to shavings) was also in the oil.
First reaction was " what the f...k...", I then got a beer out of the fridge and decided to forget about it for a while [drink]
I was then sorely tempted to forget all about it, put new oil in and run it maybe 50 to 100 km and drain the oil again to see what it might look like.
Beeing a bit squemish, I decided against this option and decided to pull the side covers .... nothing, clean as a spring morning. Same with the screen, barely a trace of anything in it. So what about forgetting about it all ...
Well, this is what my garage looks like now...
(http://i855.photobucket.com/albums/ab117/Monsterhpd/Vrbild.jpg)
The motor is all in pieces on my workbench, and I've found .... nothing missing. So far, I've not been able to establish where the shrapnel came from ???
All the bearings in the Duc engine use plastic ball / roller cages, so I don't think any of the bearings could be the source. Maybe some professional Ducati mechanic could identify what seems to be a shim about 0.2 mm thick and maybe about 20 - 22 mm iD?
Pulling the engine apart is no big deal really, except for the crank primary gear which (if you're lucky) will come off with a 2-claw puller, usually though you need to use a big hammer as well. Since ball bearings don't like that sort of mistreatment, new main bearings is almost a natural when splitting the cases.
Putting everything back together again should also not be a big deal, but you need to pay attention to shimming all the shafts for correct axial play. I'll be trying that experience soon.... :-\
So, as things stand now I could just as well have just ignored the junk in the oil, ran it for a while, and changed oil again to check and decide later (always a tempting option ...).
I'll put the engine back together to the best of my knowledge, as it seems without identifying the junk, and hoping for the best. Same as if I'd just stuck to changing the oil, really ... :-[
Quote from: Monsterlover on April 21, 2011, 03:14:47 PM
You're doing something wrong then. Correct driver for the fastener?
They're designed for this sort of thing.
I don't even own a hammer driven impact. I've taken apart whole bikes with mine. Except for engine, swing arm and axle bolts/nuts, it won't do those.
I never had occasion to use one when I was twisting wrenches full time...they hadn't been invented. ;D
Take one apart that's bound up with looseness...you know corroded fasteners that have were put in dry and too tight...with an air tool and get back to me.
You go right for it with the cordless. I'll stick with hand tools.
Quote from: MonsterHPD on April 21, 2011, 03:21:03 PM
Hello.
Beeing totally new to this forum, I'd first like to say hello to everybody, glad to be here.
I joined after a friend and fellow member of the swedish Ducati club and Monster owner pointed me this way due to some drain plug findings that looked pretty much similiar to what I found when draining the oil a few weeks back (see picture).
(http://i855.photobucket.com/albums/ab117/Monsterhpd/DSC_0543.jpg)
The shim remains (?) were stuck to the magnetic plug, and some alu grain (as opposed to shavings) was also in the oil.
First reaction was " what the f...k...", I then got a beer out of the fridge and decided to forget about it for a while [drink]
I was then sorely tempted to forget all about it, put new oil in and run it maybe 50 to 100 km and drain the oil again to see what it might look like.
Beeing a bit squemish, I decided against this option and decided to pull the side covers .... nothing, clean as a spring morning. Same with the screen, barely a trace of anything in it. So what about forgetting about it all ...
Well, this is what my garage looks like now...
(http://i855.photobucket.com/albums/ab117/Monsterhpd/Vrbild.jpg)
The motor is all in pieces on my workbench, and I've found .... nothing missing. So far, I've not been able to establish where the shrapnel came from ???
All the bearings in the Duc engine use plastic ball / roller cages, so I don't think any of the bearings could be the source. Maybe some professional Ducati mechanic could identify what seems to be a shim about 0.2 mm thick and maybe about 20 - 22 mm iD?
Pulling the engine apart is no big deal really, except for the crank primary gear which (if you're lucky) will come off with a 2-claw puller, usually though you need to use a big hammer as well. Since ball bearings don't like that sort of mistreatment, new main bearings is almost a natural when splitting the cases.
Putting everything back together again should also not be a big deal, but you need to pay attention to shimming all the shafts for correct axial play. I'll be trying that experience soon.... :-\
So, as things stand now I could just as well have just ignored the junk in the oil, ran it for a while, and changed oil again to check and decide later (always a tempting option ...).
I'll put the engine back together to the best of my knowledge, as it seems without identifying the junk, and hoping for the best. Same as if I'd just stuck to changing the oil, really ... :-[
Is it possible there were more than one crank shims per side and things just appear right?
Quote from: ducpainter on April 21, 2011, 03:54:54 PM
I never had occasion to use one when I was twisting wrenches full time...they hadn't been invented. ;D
Take one apart that's bound up with looseness...you know corroded fasteners that have were put in dry and too tight...with an air tool and get back to me.
You go right for it with the cordless. I'll stick with hand tools.
Done it ;)
"Is it possible there were more than one crank shims per side and things just appear right?"
But what could have stripped the shim off then? Maybe if the shim splits for some reason the rotating crank could spit it off. It's a puzzler.
These shims...
Pretty much precision thickness washers?
Quote from: Monsterlover on April 21, 2011, 07:37:09 PM
These shims...
Pretty much precision thickness washers?
yup...
to pre-load the crank, and shim end play on the trans shafts
Is it standard practice to use multiple shims over replacing the whole stack with one shim of the correct thickness?
Quote from: Monsterlover on April 21, 2011, 07:48:30 PM
Is it standard practice to use multiple shims over replacing the whole stack with one shim of the correct thickness?
Think so.
I know on swing arms there are only limited shim sizes and you combi them up to get the number you want.
I'm assuming all the other shimming is done the same.
I would agree but engines are more critical than swingarms.
I guess.
Quote from: Monsterlover on April 21, 2011, 07:56:07 PM
I would agree but engines are more critical than swingarms.
I guess.
I guess they could figure out all the possible combinations based on tolerances and have shims made.
We are talking Ducati here you realize. ;)
Quote from: MonsterHPD on April 21, 2011, 03:21:03 PM
~SNIP~
Maybe some professional Ducati mechanic could identify what seems to be a shim about 0.2 mm thick and maybe about 20 - 22 mm iD?
~SNIP~
That's most likely going to be from one of the transmission shafts, but that is pretty thin.....
It'll probably become clear when you're checking endplay on the shafts, as to which one it escaped from.
Which Monster is that, by the way?
Quote from: Monsterlover on April 21, 2011, 07:48:30 PM
Is it standard practice to use multiple shims over replacing the whole stack with one shim of the correct thickness?
Pretty much.
MonsterHPD's situation is why it's better to *not* use a stack of thin shims, if you can.
0.2mm is very thin, only 0.008", and that's the danger.
On the crank, for example, there are shims starting at 1.95mm thick, going to 2.55mm, in steps of 0.05mm.
Quote from: battlecry on April 21, 2011, 06:16:46 PM
"Is it possible there were more than one crank shims per side and things just appear right?"
But what could have stripped the shim off then? Maybe if the shim splits for some reason the rotating crank could spit it off. It's a puzzler.
The newer engines (don't know when it started) have just one thick washer per side on the crank and they are bigger diameter. I suppose the shim on my magnet plug is from one of the tranny shafts but would have assumed it would be a bit more obvious where it came from, especially since there as also some alu in the oil.
I can't see what made whatever shim come loose, but it is probably a good idea to use as few and as thick shims as possible whereever you can.
It's a 2002 900 with almost 50k km on it (a lot of track days) so anything Ducati would have cared to send along should have been out long ago.
I was looking through the LT Snyder Desmodue manual today, and came across a couple of familiar photos - one on page 9 of Alternator Cover Components, and another on page 3 or Engine Lubrication. In those particular instances, the pieces of shim/thrust washer came from the starter gear/flywheel assembly. Worth a look.
I actually did look for the flywheel / starter shim before tearing down the rest of the engine, but it's still there and intact. It would have been very convenient had it been that shim .....
Maybe I' ll spot something when I get round to assembling the engine again, otherwise I'll just have to put it back together and try to do it correctly. It should be OK ... :-\ (famous last words)