And you just paid a shop to put new tires on and saw this...
(http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/5002/dscn0274g.jpg)
And this...
(http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/3208/dscn0275d.jpg)
Would you just live with it or make them do something about it? I left there thinking it wasn't really a big deal but after a day I cant help but look at this and think maybe I should have. I don't know where I'm going to find this color to match. What would you do?
Also, they pulled the factory wheel weights off the rims and threw them away. So there are no weights anymore. Is this common practice when balancing a new tire?
If it was balanced well enough to not need weights, then you need no weights.... kinda doubtful though. Either way, the original weights should be gone though.
I would get something for them make the beast with two backsing up your wheels. Hell, if you were OK with the wheels getting chipped and not being balanced... you coulda done it yourself with some tire-irons.
I would be mad as hell! Then I would come to the realization of "proof".
How can you prove they did it. It can soon become an ugly dispute. Sucks to be in this situation but I would definitely make a stink. Good luck!
Sadly you can go back and see what they will do about it but if history is any teacher it will turn into a "we didn't do it" moment and unless you took photos prior to taking them you are stuck.
Been there. I take pictures now.
I'd definitely ask about the wheel weights. If it needed them before then it likely needs them now. They could have used something like Dynabeads, but I doubt it. The original ones are always removed and replaced with new though.
I'd bring up the chips, but like Yamafixer said...tough to prove they did it.
well live and learn, good lesson for us all to now use our camera phones on our bikes when dropping them off at the dealer espeically when it coes to getting new tires put on.
If it turns into a you vs them argument about 'proof'.... I have had a lot of luck filing reports with the better business bureau for that sort of crap when companies don't stand behind their own work. It is a huge hassle for them to deal with that stuff, and usually produces a much more satisfactory result after you try and fail to go directly through the business.
The guy said that the wheel balanced perfectly without any weights on it and said it's pretty rare that it happens that way. I just never heard of that before. As for the chips, I did show them to the "technician" before I left. He tried explaining to me what happened and said he would take my word for it that the chips weren't there before tire change. I know they weren't because they were the original stock tires and I checked the rims before bringing it there because I just had a feeling this shit was gonna happen. He tried to blame it on the tire machine being at fault. He offered to bring the manager or shop owner outside to look but I was like make the beast with two backs it I gotta go. Ive never been to this place before but the price was so good on the michelines and the install I decided to go with it, and they did it while I waited. Now I think I'm make the beast with two backsed because I left and now they will just deny everything I'm sure. Going by some of these replies I think I made a bad decision. [bang] [bang] [bang]
+1 on the BBB option. We've never had a complaint filed against us, but as a business that cares about its reputation within the community that would definitely get my attention. I wouldn't let a complaint get that far, but if it did, that would perk up my ears.
You can probably get matching paint through Color Rite.
BTW, just a helpful hint to try to get a satisfactory resolution to your complaint.....when you go into the shop to lodge your complaint have a solution ready. That is, think about what it would take to make things right for you. Should the shop buy your touch-up paint? Should they refund your mounting fee? Should they repair your wheels or buy new ones? If you'd be happy with either of the first two, the shop owner or manager probably won't even argue with you about it, as it's simply easier to do those things to keep a customer happy. If you want new wheels or to have yours painted, they'll probably think long and hard, as those options cost more than they made on the transaction.
I'm not saying that you shouldn't expect to be made whole, but if you'd be satisfied with a refund of the mounting labor or them buying touch up paint, you're almost guaranteed to leave happy.
I would be pissed. You can get a color match but it will never match 100% and on my bikes that's not good enough. [bang]
Quote from: mia monster on April 19, 2011, 10:19:12 AM
I would be pissed. You can get a color match but it will never match 100% and on my bikes that's not good enough. [bang]
I feel the same way, could probly search forever and never get the right color. I'm pissed because I take good care of this bike only to have someone else make the beast with two backs it up.
Looks like I'll be making a call, just need to think about what to say first like cloner said. I can't ride there today cuz it's raining.
Avoid them when it comes to the valve shim check
Colorrite pen? I know it hurts, specially when the bike is sitting in the garage but rest assured that you can't see the scratches while you are riding the bike :-)
yea man, i say chalk it up to lesson learned about that shop.
grab some touchup paint, fix her up as best you can, and go about enjoying your life.
is it really worth the hassle of going back down to the shop, talking (loudly, no doubt) about it, getting into a pissing match, MAYBE winning said argument, taking off your wheels, having them refinished or replaced (weeks of downtime), getting the tires REmounted (likely they will make the beast with two backs up AGAIN), and then having what you have now.... new tires, and a couple wheels with scratches...
live on my friend.
that being said, if you notice vibration issues due to poor/lack of balancing, i'd call them on it for sure.
We learned a while back to photograph our bikes in detail before taking them anywhere or having them towed anywhere in the event of just such a situation.
Unless you can prove that those marks weren't already there, there's not much that you can do about your wheels.
HOWEVER, what you can do is tell everyone who you know locally who rides about what happened and hopefully save others from a similar situation while at the same time you're putting the smack down on their local (bad) business habits.
Lastly, my major point of contention would be that you went in for tires, and they removed and threw away a part of your wheel. Those weights were yours as much as the bike in itself. Granted, not the most important part, but still, it's the point.
That's where I'd make an argument that they're operating unprofessionally. Call/email the Better Business Bureau.
I called them and got the owner on the phone and e-mailed them the pictures. He denied everything and said it's not fair to him to say it was their fault when I never asked him come out to look at the wheels afterwords. Basically there is nothing I can do without any proof and because I left they can say it could have been anything that happened. I will never know what happened back in that shop, he says he uses only the best machines money can buy and that it could never happen because all the parts on it are plastic and supposedly can't chip or scratch paint. He say's they have changed tires hundreds of times on some of the most expensive rims and bla bla bla... and even offered to have me come up there for a demonstration to see how impossible it is. I can accuse them all day and they will deny all day. The conversation got nowhere, so yes I will take it as a lesson learned. I should have known better to take it to a shop that I've never been to before, and that has only been open for 5 years and is in a little strip mall type place just to save a few bucks. [bang] [bang] [bang]
I feel your pain, and I will be taking pics before I have mine done. If there is any consolation, it is that you now get to have your rims custom painted or coated. Unfortunately on your dime.
Don't worry about it. If you own your bike for several years, and put a lot of miles on, you are going to get chips and stuff on your rims anyway - it just happens from little rocks. I change my own tires, and I am really careful, but my rims show their age and miles w/ chips and scratches.
Unless it is a show bike or garage queen, don't worry about.
mitt
You ought to be sure to post the name of the business, its address, the owner's name (if you know it) and the fact that you think they hosed you in this thread. That way anyone who's looking for a place to do business might stumble across this thread and will have a clue to avoid this place. The owner, by refusing to acknolwedge even the possibility that his shop damaged your wheel, told you that his take on customer service is "make the beast with two backs 'em", I think. He should have to suffer the consequences of that attitude.
There's no danger of legal action in this recommendation, as it is simply a statement of your opinion based upon fact. I find it odd that the technician acknowledged the possibility of damage, but the owner, who might never have changed a tire, preaches the impossibility of error.
You might even send the shop an email with a link to this thread. Maybe next time someone complains the owner will realize that his actions affect his future sales, not just this one!
Quote from: Enzoman on April 21, 2011, 03:24:31 PM
I called them and got the owner on the phone and e-mailed them the pictures. He denied everything and said it's not fair to him to say it was their fault when I never asked him come out to look at the wheels afterwords. Basically there is nothing I can do without any proof and because I left they can say it could have been anything that happened. I will never know what happened back in that shop, he says he uses only the best machines money can buy and that it could never happen because all the parts on it are plastic and supposedly can't chip or scratch paint. He say's they have changed tires hundreds of times on some of the most expensive rims and bla bla bla... and even offered to have me come up there for a demonstration to see how impossible it is. I can accuse them all day and they will deny all day. The conversation got nowhere, so yes I will take it as a lesson learned. I should have known better to take it to a shop that I've never been to before, and that has only been open for 5 years and is in a little strip mall type place just to save a few bucks. [bang] [bang] [bang]
And that right there is the reason why I have been changing my own tires ever since I learned how to use a tire iron, and a bead breaker. That's also why all my friends bring their bikes to me to have new rubber spooned on their rims when I lived in NYC, and here in Colorado.
For me, its about getting the job done right, and not about getting the job done as quickly as humanly possible.
Its why I take extra time working on forks, and cleaning them up after everything has been put back together.
The people whose bikes I work on really appreciate the extra attention to detail.
The owner of the shop doesn't care about your bike, just about how much money they can make off of your bike.
If you only bring your bike there for one tire change, they typically don't care.
Way back in time, when I didn't work on my own bikes, I had a reoccurring problem with the Honda shop I used at the time that would always change the rear tire, but completely forget to readjust the rear drum brake so that when I pressed on it, I would actually get some form of braking action, and not crape the ground with the brake pedal. After the second time it happened, I complained to the service writer, and he sent the tech out to adjust it. After the third time, I just gave up, and held a 10 mm wrench in my hand when I went to go pick up the bike, and would adjust it before I took possession.
BC.
Quote from: mitt on April 21, 2011, 06:07:33 PM
Don't worry about it. If you own your bike for several years, and put a lot of miles on, you are going to get chips and stuff on your rims anyway - it just happens from little rocks. I change my own tires, and I am really careful, but my rims show their age and miles w/ chips and scratches.
Unless it is a show bike or garage queen, don't worry about.
mitt
+1 I take good care of my stuff and have had many sets of tires mounted by others over the years and just about every one of my bikes has chips and nicks on the wheels. Not from tire mounting but from road use. Chips just happen. Try getting some matching paint to fix the nicks if it bothers you that much and don't use the shop again. That pretty much covers it.
One other thing to realize is that the shop may not have been capable of balancing the wheel. For instance if you have a single sided swing arm set up and you are not taking it to a Ducati shop they may not have jigs large enough to handle the big axle diameter when comes to balancing so they just won't do it. They may cop to it (like one shop I deal with does) or they may come up with a line of BS. You have to decide for yourself.
The paint chip could be careless work or it can also happen even if you do the work and are trying your darnedest to be careful. I think about investing in a tire machine but the one I'd get costs around a grand so it's not something I'm rushing right down to buy.
Quote from: Cloner on April 22, 2011, 08:18:19 AM
You ought to be sure to post the name of the business, its address, the owner's name (if you know it) and the fact that you think they hosed you in this thread. That way anyone who's looking for a place to do business might stumble across this thread and will have a clue to avoid this place. The owner, by refusing to acknolwedge even the possibility that his shop damaged your wheel, told you that his take on customer service is "make the beast with two backs 'em", I think. He should have to suffer the consequences of that attitude.
There's no danger of legal action in this recommendation, as it is simply a statement of your opinion based upon fact. I find it odd that the technician acknowledged the possibility of damage, but the owner, who might never have changed a tire, preaches the impossibility of error.
You might even send the shop an email with a link to this thread. Maybe next time someone complains the owner will realize that his actions affect his future sales, not just this one!
Believe me, the temptation is there and the internet can be a powerful tool when it comes to that but.... they do have my name and address. And it's a small shop not that far from me so might be too risky to start flaming :-\
Get yourself some touch up paint and call it a day, yes it does suck big time but if I have learned anything about bikes is they don't always stay pretty and shit happens. I dropped my 1098 within 2 weeks of ownership but you know what I ride the piss out of that thing. Sure there are some scratches here and there from the miles I have put on it but hey it is worn in and you don't want to get hungup on a shop who won't do anything about it anyways. Go for a ride you will feel a lot better [thumbsup]
One of the first rules of business is that it costs a lot more to create a new customer than to retain an old one. Most business savvy companies would not question anything as small as this and simply buy you some touch up paint without any hassle, if you would have been happy with that solution.
Like I said before, if you are 100% sure it was that shop that did it, file a report with the BBB. Not only will it be more likely that they will resolve the issue, if they don't, the report will stay open and other people can see how these guys operate. You will be doing other people a favor, as well as yourself.
Local shop here was getting upward of $40 if I bring wheel & my new tire.
I got a hell of a gouge, no chip, touch up wouldn't do much. I hadn't really inpected closely before.
My bike isn't so pristine it can't withstand a few scratches but.
I bought a Cycle Hill changer, more for convenience, and I felt it was yoo spendy having someone else do it.
Way more than cheapest and nice enough I'll enjoy using it, for < $400.
Plus it's ~30mi to the shop, this way I can change when I'm home and not do a drop off / pickup on a day I could be riding.
Shit happens. But I'd be pissed enough to not go back.
Quote from: Enzoman on April 22, 2011, 05:50:22 PM
Believe me, the temptation is there and the internet can be a powerful tool when it comes to that but.... they do have my name and address. And it's a small shop not that far from me so might be too risky to start flaming :-\
and that right there pretty much ends the discussion IMHO...if you aren't willing to take the chance or opportunity to do something about it, then I think you should close the discussion and walk away and just ride and not think about it...shit happens and it will to you too...the world isn't perfect and there are unscrupulous businessmen out there who couldnt give a rats ass about you, except in the form of what $$$ you are spending with them...this happens to be one....move on or do somethign about it....up to you...
sorry to be harsh if you take it that way, but I severely sugarcoated what I was really thinking and was going to say in reaction.
PROCYCLES PROCYCLES PROCYCLES PROCYCLES
http://www.procyclesinc.com/ (http://www.procyclesinc.com/)
Clifton Park, NY
Never go to procycles for a tire change, there's nothing "pro" about them and your rims will suffer! [thumbsdown]
Moving on now...
Plenty pics of the staff promoting safety over there..........
(http://www.procyclesinc.com/Jimmystoppie.JPG)
absurd.
1. even the best machines when used carelessly/improperly can mess up a rim. If the owner/manager doesn't believe that, ask him if YOU can use his machine to change HIS tires.
2. the chances of a tire not needing a weight are so slight that when compounded with the messed up rim I would bet money that it isnt balanced.
3. even the pros make mistakes. owning those mistakes and making it right BEFORE the customer even knows (like say, calling them and saying "hey XYZ happend, its rare and it sucks but here is how we would like to fix it") is how you earn the title of pro.
I would go to a different shop and ask them to check the balance of the tire. If they are not balanced I would go to procycles and tell them that and that they messed up your rims and failed to balance the tire and that you would like them to fix their damage and refund whatever money the charge for balancing (call and ask what they would charge anonymously first). if they argue I would get a quote for powdercoating the rims and sue for the cost of getting the tires re-balanced as well as all costs associated with powdercoating (if your bike is sole transport and you have any extra costs associated with the down time I would ask for that too.). a lawsuit is not something I throw out lightly, but in this case you have clear damages and if the tire is out of balance then you have fraud/negligence as you paid to have tires mounted and balanced.
as for the "it was there before us" argument, those look to me like clear tire machine marks if you had your original tires on then its realllly hard to hold up that argument.
edit: if you have two marks on the same rim you can measure the distance between the two and reference that against the machine. if they are on front/rear perhaps they are a common diameter that you can reference?
Quote from: Monster Dave on April 21, 2011, 02:53:08 PM
Lastly, my major point of contention would be that you went in for tires, and they removed and threw away a part of your wheel. Those weights were yours as much as the bike in itself. Granted, not the most important part, but still, it's the point.
I have to say that in my entire life of having both car tires and bike tires mounted I have NEVER once had the tire guy come to me and say "We are done with your bike (and or car). Everything is balanced, here are the old weights we pulled off."
What the hell would I do with them?
The hammer on weights are re used, the tape on weights are recycled. Lead is worth money.
I agree that the lead weights are worth something..................to someone who can use them.
All I am saying is that I don't find it odd at ALL to not receive the old weights. I am sure you can ask for them back if you want them but don't be too surprised if you don't ask and don't get them. Hell, I don't want my old tires back and I payed for them too.
In his whole saga of what happened to his wheels I just thought it was a silly comment to say he didn't get old weights back.
Send the wheels to ducpainter while it's still winter over there.
Problem solved.
Quote from: Monster Dave on April 21, 2011, 02:53:08 PM
We learned a while back to photograph our bikes in detail before taking them anywhere or having them towed anywhere in the event of just such a situation.
Unless you can prove that those marks weren't already there, there's not much that you can do about your wheels.
HOWEVER, what you can do is tell everyone who you know locally who rides about what happened and hopefully save others from a similar situation while at the same time you're putting the smack down on their local (bad) business habits.
Lastly, my major point of contention would be that you went in for tires, and they removed and threw away a part of your wheel. Those weights were yours as much as the bike in itself. Granted, not the most important part, but still, it's the point.
That's where I'd make an argument that they're operating unprofessionally. Call/email the Better Business Bureau.
Not for nothin' Dave...
this might be the silliest thing you've ever said.
Quote from: ducpainter on April 24, 2011, 06:16:00 PM
Not for nothin' Dave...
this might be the silliest thing you've ever said.
agreed. shops add/remove balancing weights as needed. i've never had them give me the old ones nor would i expect/want them to.
I'd be miffed.
I'd have gone back in and shown the Service Mgr. the damage and asked them what they would do to make up for the damage.
Now it's a little late to say that they did it and for them to accept the responsibility without a challenge and I wouldn't blame them.
Dolph
Ok, aside from the balance.
Are you guys serious about the small chip? I must be missing something. It didn't look that bad. Unless its a show bike or something. Is that such a big deal ? (assuming that it is not done intentionally).
I used to balance car and truck tires as a weekend and summer job while in high school. With the higher end rims, they usually needed less weight tweaking if you were bored and tried spinning the rims without the tires. The steel rims could be way off. So I got to figuring that it was the tires that were the more imperfect of the equation. Anyways, every now and then, the combo of the tire and rim was such that there would be no need for any weights, as the wheel/tire unit came out perfect. Every now and again. So it is possible that your wheel/tire didn't need any weight. If they didn't remove the old weights before testing the balance of the new tires on the rims, then they were morons. You balance the tire and rim as a single unit, so weights from the factory should correspond as such. It isn't some weight that's added solely for the purpose of fixing an imperfection in the rim itself. Keep in mind this is cars, not bikes, and this was back in the 90s.
As for the paint chip, I would be pissed. I understand wear and tear on our motorcycles, but personally I want that wear and tear to come from me, not someone else's boneheaded mistake. Like a car, if I hit a trash can or drop something on it or do something to mess up the paint/body, it doesn't bother me near as much as some stranger dinging my door in a parking lot.
But at this point I think you are stuck in the lesson learned category. I don't understand the idea of taking pictures before hand as proof, as there is no way to prove that those photos are recent. (Time/date stamps on photos can be easily fudged.) I would just do a scratch/chip/ding inventory with the next shop manager prior to servicing. And as soon as you get the bike back, before riding away, look it over in detail. If you find a discrepancy, that is the time to bring it up, not after you ride away. Sucks, but everyone has to cover their asses. You might be a nice and honest guy, but the shop doesn't necessarily know that.
Quote from: ducpainter on April 24, 2011, 06:16:00 PM
Not for nothin' Dave...
this might be the silliest thing you've ever said.
[laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] [laugh] ;)
Quote from: Grappa on April 26, 2011, 08:33:38 PM
I don't understand the idea of taking pictures before hand as proof, as there is no way to prove that those photos are recent. (Time/date stamps on photos can be easily fudged.)
that is why, if I were to be doing something like this, I'd be putting that days current newspaper on the ground conveniently placed in view when taking the shot(s), IF I felt the compulsive enough need to go this route...
Quote from: Grappa on April 26, 2011, 08:33:38 PM
I would just do a scratch/chip/ding inventory with the next shop manager prior to servicing. And as soon as you get the bike back, before riding away, look it over in detail. If you find a discrepancy, that is the time to bring it up, not after you ride away.
that is exactly what we do in the car industry and it boggles me sometimes why it isn't done on a moto shops intake sheet. We have forms ( sorta a general standardized template that most places use) that have a vehicle generalized silhouette with lines for jotting down general notes for VIN, milage on odometer, customer comments at time of intake that are pertinant to servicing, and you make general marks on the illustration as to where(if any) damage on the vehicle is at time of intake. If you see something that is damaged at pick-up and it isn't demarcated on the sheet from when they took the vehicle in, it is a no brainer that the shop is on the hook. It is general common sense that takes an extra minute or few, but saves a lot of aggrivation in the long run.
Quote from: zooom on April 27, 2011, 04:21:50 AM
that is why, if I were to be doing something like this, I'd be putting that days current newspaper on the ground conveniently placed in view when taking the shot(s), IF I felt the compulsive enough need to go this route...
[laugh]