Ducati Monster Forum

'Scuse the cheesy title, but I'm wondering if y'all have any tips for the physical blipping of the throttle while braking / downshifting...  I've been heel-toeing in cars for years so I'm good with the theory, and I've had no trouble getting well-matched downshifts without braking in riding thus far - but as soon as I add front brake it all goes to hell.  I practiced the motion a few times over the winter while the bike was on a stand and it seemed do-able (though somewhat awkward), but out on the road I find that I either A) get the blip right but jerk the lever in the process, or B) get the braking right but totally botch the blip.  I've been braking with index and middle fingers, blipping with thumb, ring, and pinky - but the throttle springs are a little heavy and it takes more than just a light flick to get some revs, hence the brake upset...

Anybody have any good tips to practice?

Ergonomics. Change your brake lever, change your master, change your grip position change your grips...etc until you get your hand in the best position to do so.....

and then you realize that its uncomfortable as hell and think why do you need to do this on the street? Only racers need to brake, blip, gas and shift at the same time. I just break it up into parts. blip shift and apply brake at the same time i release the throttle so i get both engine braking and front braking at the same time.

If you're stabbing the brakes, then you could try adjusting your brake lever in a little bit so that you have some more bend in your fingers.  I also try to focus on grasping the throttle with my ring/pinky fingers when I blip--that mental exercise helps me be smoother on the brakes somehow.

Another mistake people (myself included) make is letting the clutch out too quickly.  Remember: in quick, out slowly.  Try to get your blips done early (first 10% of braking zone, if possible) and then let out the clutch nice and slow for the last one.

When I was learning, I found it useful to practice some individual exercises:

• Downshift and use the clutch for every downshift, but don't brake; concentrate on clutch timing and feel
• Blip downshifts without brakes; again, concentrate on clutch timing and feel
• Hold the clutch in and rev the engine while braking (no downshifts); just concentrate on smooth braking and consistent revs

Finally, when I get sloppy, I think about the cadence in my head while I'm doing it: clutch in (fast), downshift, blip, clutch out (slow).  Once my smoothness returns, I concentrate on other things, but it's helpful for me to review occasionally.

**waiting for someone to explain what the heck a 'blip' is  [roll]

A blip is when you give it some gas before letting out the clutch on a downshift.

I see, there's a few things I'll have to read up about, if you guys don't mind me asking questions. I am new to this branch of technical English, not entirely new to riding (I hope)  ;D
Thanks anyway.

I'll have to try the bit on braking and blipping without actually downshifting...  If it ever stops raining [thumbsdown]

Yeah, the rain surely sucks. I do what you guys call 'blipping' instinctively, w/o really giving it a thought or realizing that there might even be a name for that.

Miss riding my Duc. It's been a while since I've been riding one (before I had my baby, then gave it up for his sake).
Now I got myself this beauty and feel deep happiness.
If there has ever been true love(other than the one a mother has for her child), then it's the one between a girl and her Monster, I'd say  :-* [cheeky]

Even my son liked it when I took the rear foot-pegs off, to expose the elegance of the rear wheel. 'She's a true beauty' he said.

'I don't want you to ever ride this' mommy said.
'Ride Harleys and be safe...'

Blipping while applying front brake is very tricky to do smoothly.  Like He Man says, it's more of a track thing.  It's actually a lot easier to do coming down from high speeds from 130 mph in 6th gear down to 3rd, for example, than like braking from 40 mph to a stop light.  It takes a ton of practice to not lurch.  I haven't gotten there yet, even on the track.

I never noticed the technique to be any harder or easier with speed or lack of speed.  I learned to do this as second nature when I started racing (25 years ago) and it simply becomes part of one's riding routine with a very little practice.

For reference, with modern bikes I typically brake with my middle finger only, with my index finger lying atop the lever near its pivot (out of the way, but comfortable).  I have rather large hands if that makes any difference.  I blip with only my thumb on the throttle tube (actually, my ring and pinky fingers are on the tube, but just lying on the tube, not actively gripping it), but your mileage may vary.  The trick, I found, is to maintain constant pressure whilst blipping.  It sounds easier than it is, but once you get it, you got it.  Just practice for a couple of rides and you'll never have to worry about it again.

I blip while at speed and downshifting but not coming to a stop, probably because I try not to use the eng to slow down, just brakes. I brake to slow and down shift while braking when it's low enough rpms to just slip into the next gear down without a big rpm jump. Don't think about it much just the way I have driven my cars and now the bike.

Here's my take.

This is a copy of a post I made on another board about this exact same topic (back when I tracked a 675.)

This mainly pertains to track riding, but it can also be applied to the street.

"I rev match all the time, track or street.  One of my pet peeves is people that just shift and let the clutch out.  I'd guess 80% of riders I see at Euromoto trackdays don't rev match.

On my 675 I normally am in 5th gear heading into T10 at Beaver.  I brake, shift three gears at once down to 2nd, give it a biiiiig blip and clutch out, on the gas to maintain rpm, tip in for T10 and then roll on the gas from the apex out.

The key to easy rev matching is slipping the clutch.  It takes some practice but it's not hard, and soon will be second nature.

If you down shift and snap the clutch out like you would for an UPshift, that's the wrong way (IMO)

I clutch in, downshift/rev match, let the clutch 2/3 of the way out at "full speed."  That connects the rear wheel with the engine and helps "grab hold" of the new rpm.  Even if you're off on the rpm, the clutch isn't all the way out and the bike doesn't get upset.  You can be off 1000 rpm or more and still make it work!  After this, let the clutch out the remaining 1/3 at maybe half speed (like you would pulling away from a stop sign)

It's a two step process with your clutch hand, first 2/3'rds, then the last 1/3 in two distinct steps.

I've been doing this for a few years and have never felt the need to get a slipper clutch for the bike.  It just never get's bent out of shape even on hard high speed downshift/braking maneuvers.

On the street, coming to a stop I typically will move from 6 to 4 to 2 and rev match all of the shifts.

Give it a try, it gets easier every time you do it, and you'll be making butter smooth down shifts in no time"

I'm with Monsterlover for the most part, but I don't bang the downshifts in groups.

The great thing about Monsters is they have so much engine braking, that on the street I hardly have to use the brakes until I'm getting close to actually stopping.  Even now, with the 999 it's even MORE engine braking.  [evil]

With my old M750, I would brake with my middle and ring finger and roll the throttle between my thumb and forefinger.  I wouldn't brake a whole lot coming into corners, as to keep up with the big boys I needed all the cornerspeed I could get.  The Trip-9 needs a little more to haul herself down to a manageable speed.   ;)   

When I first started riding, I would brake, let off to blip and ease on the rear during the blip, let out the clutch as I eased back on the front and off the rear.  Waaaay too complicated, but it worked for me then.  Now, it's half clutch as I bang down the gears and that makes it a bit smoother.  I don't fully release the clutch until I'm in my final gear for that particular corner.  Also with street riding, I rarely have to downshift more than one gear.  I'll usually brake, blip/downshift, and let the engine do the rest.  If you're banging 2 or three downshifts, you're probably running a bit too fast on the street.  Track is a different story...   [moto]

Just my $0.02 and my experience.  YMMV   8)



[bacon]

I've pretty much given up the clutch on my t9. Ill use it from a stop of course. After that I upshift without it. Half the time I downshift without it as well.

Yeah, she's good that way, huh...   [evil] ;D

I only clutch 1-2 going up, I still have trouble letting myself bang 'em down without the clutch.  Even when I think about it, old habits die hard.  ;) 


[bacon]

There is no spoon clutch

 ;D

I hope this is not to off topic. When you engine brake on the street do you (generic "you") cocern yourself about no brake light?

If someone is tail gating me or if I'm in traffic I use the lever and flash it off and on to get their attention

from this thread
http://forum.svrider.com/showthread.php?t=31867 (http://forum.svrider.com/showthread.php?t=31867)

thought it basically addresses this perfectly:

keith code on braking and downshifting
Brake/Down Changing Gears Like a Pro

Barriers Open Doors

To make real improvement there must first exist a real barrier to overcome or a real result to achieve. These are always based on the rider?s own desires: to go faster; be more in control; have fewer panic situations; put it all together into a smooth flow or simply remove doubts and questions they have relating to those goals: when do the tires slide, how hard can I brake, how far can I lean the bike and so on.

When you look at it you?ll see that there is very little difference, if any, between a riding barrier and a riding goal; they both have the same stumbling blocks. They both have an end result to achieve. They both have some fear or uncertainty or distraction attached to them. There is always a barrier.

The Braking & Downshifting Barrier

An example of a common barrier would be the complications that arise from the hurried and slightly frantic control operations that stem from not learning to smoothly and simultaneously brake and downshift for traffic lights, obstructions and, of course, corners.

Doesn?t sound like a life or death threatening situation but when inspected closely you see what impact it really has on a rider?s attention and how they are spending it.

Check it out, if the rider can?t do braking and downshifting, simultaneously and smoothly, they are forced into one or more of the following attention draining scenarios:

1. Slowly letting out the clutch to make the downshift smoothly. This requires attention to be spent and is the most common way uneducated riders handle it.

2. Having to change gears once the bike is stopped. When the bike is stopped even the best transmissions can be sticky. Gears change more easily and more positively when the bike is moving. It causes less wear on the gearbox to change the gears while you are moving.

3. Having to change the gears after the braking is completed for a turn. That means doing it in the curve. This is distracting and can upset the bike, to say nothing of the rider.

4. Alternately going from the brake to the gas to match revs for the downshifts. This has the bike pogoing at the front. It does not get the bike slowed down quickly in an efficient manner. This is very busy riding.

5. Downshift before braking. This is fine for very relaxed riding situations at slow speeds but is hazardous to the engine if the rider is in ?spirited cornering? mode as it provides the opportunity to over-rev the motor and bypass the rev limiter that protects it. Could be very expensive. In an emergency situation you don?t have time to do this because you should be on the brakes right away. Not only that but some emergencies require you to brake and then get on the gas right away for accelerating hard to avoid things like cars running a light on you. In this case the rider would not have the time to get it done.

6. Forget it entirely and just go through the corner. This forces downshift(s) to be done at the corner?s exit thus losing the drive out and complicating the whole thing by having to make a gear change when they should be rolling on the throttle. This is distracting and not smooth at all.

Coordination And Concentration

It is true that if a rider was uncoordinated and attempts simultaneous braking and downshifting it could be dangerous. For example having the front brake on along with the power can make your front wheel lock up.

On our panic-stop training bike I have seen it many times: the rider aggressively squeezes the brake and unconsciously rolls the throttle on at the same time. It?s spooky to watch. So yes, practice and coordination are necessary, you will have to practice.

More importantly, you have to make a decision. Are the 6 potential distractions above likely to get you into trouble? They do break the rider?s concentration even if only slightly. In other words: if you aren?t a super hero at multitasking each of the 6 is a negative in comparison with braking and downshifting simultaneously.

In Control = In Communication

Continuous perception of your speed is how you control it. Accurate turn entry speed is critical to good, confident cornering. If you are worried about your speed, you are distracted by it.

Finding the right turn entry speed (for you) is far easier when the braking and downshifting are happening in one continuous flow of change. When compared to one that is chopped up, incomplete or creates anxiety like having to shift in the turn, it?s obvious which scenario is better. Your Sense of Speed is a precious resource and is far more accurate when monitored as a steady stream with your awareness.

Maintaining a continuous state of awareness of what the bike itself is doing is another of the true benefits of this technique. You always know where the engine speed is in relation to the road speed and that improves your feel for the bike.

Your communication with the machine improves; no false signals or guess work; no waiting to know how the bike will respond in any of the above scenarios. You ability to maintain communication with the bike is important input.

Naming It

Simultaneous braking and downshifting. I?d like to shorten it to something like brake-down. Car guys call it heel and toe, which is a nice, short and simple way of saying they are simultaneously using the brake pedal with their toe and revving the motor with their heel. In some cars you just put the ball of your foot between the brake and gas pedals and rock your foot side to side to do it, it depends on the pedal arrangement. On a bike, provided the brake lever is comfortably adjusted to fit your hand, they are always in the same position for our maneuver.

Alright, for now it is brake-down. It would be interesting to have a non rider hear about you executing a ?breakdown? coming into a curve; sounds pretty dangerous. How about fist and fingers or palm and fingers or B&Ding, ?

Whatever we call it, it works to simplify corner entries and puts the rider in command of and in communication with his machine to the highest possible degree.

The Sequence

1. Gas goes off.
2. Brake goes on.
3. Bike slows some.
4. Clutch comes in.
Maintain brake lever pressure.
5. Blip the gas rapidly on and off. (Usually no more than a quarter turn).
Maintain brake lever pressure.
6. During the blip make the gear change positively and quickly.
Maintain brake lever pressure.
7. Clutch comes out.
Maintain brake lever pressure until desired turn entry speed is achieved.
8. Release brake smoothly.

Bear this in mind: the quicker you do steps #1 through #7 the better.

Brake Lever Control

Expert use of the brake during this entire cycle means that you can maintain, increase or decrease the pressure as desired, without abruptly stabbing or releasing the brake lever.

Number of Fingers

Some riders let their finger(s) slide over the brake lever as they blip the gas. Others grab the brake lever with the tips of their finger(s) and still get a continuous lever pressure without the bike pogoing up and down.

Whichever way you do it is fine. How many fingers you use for the brake is up to you: one, two, three or four, this is your choice although I recommend you try just two fingers, your index and middle ones.

What?s Important?

Braking is important, it is life and death on the street and vital on the track. Changing gears is not. You can still make it through the corner or get the bike stopped without ever touching the gears. But, riders do have the six above scenarios to contend with if they can?t do the fist/finger, down-brake, palm/finger, B&Ding technique.

Learning How

The fact that riders have a problem doing this technique led me to a solution. I?ve built a bike that trains it. We call it the Control Trainer. It takes you through the technique, step by step.

The trainer?s computer program talks you through the whole sequence and it points out your problems and how to correct them. The computer is hooked up on a static ZX9, you can?t ride it but you do get the coordination/muscle memory necessary to do it for real.

Each of the controls is monitored for: correct sequence; correct timing of the clutch and gear changes; correctly sized throttle blips and consistent brake pressure, throughout the whole process.

With or without my Control Trainer, anyone can learn to do it. Start now.

? Keith Code

Sorry for a stupid question, but... when do you actually blip?

On a car, you really need to do it only when going down to a gear that is too low for the speed, to reset the sync. Otherwise, it won't let you in the gear. So, on a car, while breaking: clutch, gear out to neutral, blip, shift down, gas to match (not blip), clutch.

I expected the same technical reasons for a bike, so I blip before shifting down. From what I see in this thread, it looks like you guys blip already after the shift, is that correct? Would you please explain me the technical reason of the process? Am I missing something?

Clutch in

Blip and downshift at the same time

Clutch out while the rpm is still up.

That's the short of it.

So you go into the gear on a higher revs? But what is a reason? Isn't it bad for the gearbox?

My Monster sounded so painful when I did it once or two when shifting to the first with a slightly open choke. Or is it different in other gears?

Well, going into first I would probably just get to second and coast to a stop.

When I'm riding in a non urban environment I don't normally have to use first.

The reason to do this is get into a lower gear (coming into a corner off a straight for example) so that as you slow for the corner you are already in the correct gear to get a good drive out of that corner.

The blip allows for a more precise downshift that doesn't upset the bikes suspension.

blipping makes things smoother, and matching the revs reduces strain on the gearbox

same reason you let the rev's fall when you're upshifting.  makes everything smoother.

I was a bit irritated by the 3d post in this thread:



Then in the quote from another forum it was "Blip, then downshift". (That is what I am doing now)

Now, Monsterlover says, "downshift during the blip, clutch in while revs are high".




I was watching myself today on my way to work, I do put the gear in while the revs are a bit higher, but definitely after I actually drop the throttle. And it is surely not revving high anymore during the clutch release, so if I shift down two or more gears, I have to (because of very small biking experience) release it slowly while bringing the gas up, if necessary.

Am I doing it completely wrong?
In fact, mostly I worry about my Monster (m750 from 2001), would hate to hurt him by that kind of mistake.

i wouldnt worry about damaging the gearbox by not blipping... it's a minor thing really, it's more about not upsetting the suspension.

and from the keith code article i posted up top, keep in mind this is more about blipping while braking for a turn, but just remove the references for braking if that's not what youre looking to do:

The Sequence

1. Gas goes off.
2. Brake goes on.
3. Bike slows some.
4. Clutch comes in.
Maintain brake lever pressure.
5. Blip the gas rapidly on and off. (Usually no more than a quarter turn).
Maintain brake lever pressure.
6. During the blip make the gear change positively and quickly.
Maintain brake lever pressure.
7. Clutch comes out.
Maintain brake lever pressure until desired turn entry speed is achieved.
8. Release brake smoothly.

Bear this in mind: the quicker you do steps #1 through #7 the better.

and i dont blip the gas rapidly though... i just give it a good twist.

Thanks for explaining, Monsterlover, Thought.
I think, I got it.

Yes.  More reduces clutch wear id think.  Hard to damage a gear box itself.  I, for the most part, never use the clutch to shift up or down on my 999 or KTM 950smr.  Just use it to pull away from a stop.

No damaged gear boxes.


You let the rev's fall when you upshift?

Why?  That just delays clutch re-engagement and power back to the rear wheel.


The precision of the timing is important, but not that important.  The whole point of this is to get from when gear, down to the next gear as fast and as smooth as possible.  That means minimize the time between pulling the clutch lever and letting it back out.

For me, the more I can do at once makes for a speedier process.  Im also just used to doing it so keep that in mind.

Whether you clutch in-blip-shift-clutch out or clutch in-blip & shift-clutch out really doesn't matter.

All that matters is that it's a smooth and comfortable process for you

There's a lot of personal take on motorcycle riding.  Being comfortable matters a lot.  That's the priority.  Or it is for me at least.


You're not doing it wrong.  Reread my post earlier in this thread about my technique on the track - going from 5th gear down to 3rd or second in one shot.  I know we're not talking track specifically, and it's a different bike, but the method is the same. 

Best thing to do is just ride the bike.  Enjoy the ride and worry less about if you're doing it right.  You'll be hard pressed to damage your transmission internals.  You'll wear a clutch out first, which isn't a big deal.  It is a wear item after all.

What you find to be comfortable will soon become second nature.

Then you'll end up on a superbike like I did, find out the clutch pull bothers your hand and figure out how to just ride without it if you need to

;)

I don't really think about it.

Just do what feels right.

The engine should be telling you what it wants with sound and feel.

Oh, by that I mean rolling off the throttle for a upshift, whether with or without clutch.  Not letting them drop like crazy but just letting the gear snick into place.

Gotcha