Ducati Monster Forum

Moto Board => Tech => Topic started by: mysticbluex3 on May 02, 2011, 10:30:38 PM

Title: Battery Help
Post by: mysticbluex3 on May 02, 2011, 10:30:38 PM
No history of batter problems. It's an 09 m696. I ride it almost everyday. Twice a week I commute to work 60 mile round trip. Today after dinner, I turn the key and the instruments lights up then dies immediately. Headlight dies too. Only parking light is on. I few more tries and same result. One more try and the parking light won't even turn on. Red immobilizer light doesn't even blink. I hook bike up to battery tender and was able to get headlight and instrument lights to come on with key turned. I check the voltage on the display and it shows 12v??? WTF?  But the bike still won't start. I try the ignition, it clicks once and all lights goes out. Any suggestions?
Title: Re: Battery Help
Post by: mysticbluex3 on May 02, 2011, 10:55:30 PM
Now when I turn the key, the instrument display flashes, reads 0003 rSW, headlights flashes continuously and also there is a clicking sound that repeats.
Title: Re: Battery Help
Post by: 64duc on May 03, 2011, 01:22:10 AM
 Check your battery connections. Also the connections at the other end of the battery cables.   If that doesn't fix it Take the connections apart and wire brush them clean and reassemble. You may need to recharge the battery.
Title: Re: Battery Help
Post by: mysticbluex3 on May 03, 2011, 02:49:19 PM
I just realized that when I saw the 12V reading on the instrument panel, I might have had the battery tender plugged in at the time.  Maybe it was reading the 12V from the tender and not the actual voltage from the battery?

Finally got the bike home this morning after renting a budget truck. Probably going to take the tank off this weekend and replace the battery to see if it resolves the issue. If not, I may have to suck it up and pay the dealership to look at it.
Title: Re: Battery Help
Post by: Howie on May 03, 2011, 08:48:25 PM
Quote from: mysticbluex3 on May 03, 2011, 02:49:19 PM
I just realized that when I saw the 12V reading on the instrument panel, I might have had the battery tender plugged in at the time.  Maybe it was reading the 12V from the tender and not the actual voltage from the battery?

Finally got the bike home this morning after renting a budget truck. Probably going to take the tank off this weekend and replace the battery to see if it resolves the issue. If not, I may have to suck it up and pay the dealership to look at it.

Replacing the battery to see what happens is an expensive, inaccurate diagnostic technique.  This method may also lead to getting stuck in not very good places at very good times.  You need to start by charging then load testing the battery so you know if it is good.  Then check charging system output  and resistance at all connections.  If you replace the battery the bike will probably start.  If there is a charging system problem the bike will run until the battery wears down.  Then you will be about $100 poorer and stuck.

From another reply I wrote in another post:
http://www.electrosport.com/technical-resources/diagnosis-center/fault-finding-guide (http://www.electrosport.com/technical-resources/diagnosis-center/fault-finding-guide)
   http://www.aa1car.com/library/voltage_drop_testing.htm (http://www.aa1car.com/library/voltage_drop_testing.htm)
Voltage drop testing is the best way to find high resistance in a circuit, most likely your problem.  First items I would look at are the 40 amp fuse for the regulator, the connector where the stator wires connect to the regulator, regulator mounting and ground, battery cable connections and ground.
Title: Re: Battery Help
Post by: mysticbluex3 on May 04, 2011, 05:19:26 PM
Quote from: howie on May 03, 2011, 08:48:25 PM
Replacing the battery to see what happens is an expensive, inaccurate diagnostic technique.  This method may also lead to getting stuck in not very good places at very good times.  You need to start by charging then load testing the battery so you know if it is good.  Then check charging system output  and resistance at all connections.  If you replace the battery the bike will probably start.  If there is a charging system problem the bike will run until the battery wears down.  Then you will be about $100 poorer and stuck.

From another reply I wrote in another post:
http://www.electrosport.com/technical-resources/diagnosis-center/fault-finding-guide (http://www.electrosport.com/technical-resources/diagnosis-center/fault-finding-guide)
   http://www.aa1car.com/library/voltage_drop_testing.htm (http://www.aa1car.com/library/voltage_drop_testing.htm)
Voltage drop testing is the best way to find high resistance in a circuit, most likely your problem.  First items I would look at are the 40 amp fuse for the regulator, the connector where the stator wires connect to the regulator, regulator mounting and ground, battery cable connections and ground.

Awesome.  Thanks for the advice. So I need to
1) See if current battery is still good (I guess I need to take it to a shop?)
2) Check for poor or corroded connections by checking the resistance.  How do I do this?  Do I unplug upstream and downstream to check the resistance of the connection in the middle?
Title: Re: Battery Help
Post by: mysticbluex3 on May 04, 2011, 05:53:24 PM
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v186/Hemansd/Bike/Ducati/ElectricalMonster.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v186/Hemansd/Bike/Ducati/ElectricalMonster2.jpg)

Where is the regulator?  Is it number 7?  If it is, where is the fuse?  Seems like most of the wires are bundled inside the wiring harness =(
Title: Re: Battery Help
Post by: mysticbluex3 on May 04, 2011, 09:04:35 PM
Ok.  So I don't think it's a battery problem or is it?  I just check the voltage reading from the battery tender lead (tender not hooked up) and I get 12.4V.  That should be enough to turn the bike.  Yet the immobilizer light doesn't blink and when I turn the key, nothing lights up.  I checked the fuses in the fuse box on the right hand side.  All are good.  However, after I pulled each fuse out and plugged it back in.  The immobilizer starts blinking again.  But still nothing happens when I turn the key.  Is there any other fuses on the bike I can check for?
Title: Re: Battery Help
Post by: Howie on May 04, 2011, 09:05:28 PM
Yes, the regulator is #7.  Page 111 in your owner's manual will show you the location of the fuse.  There is also a wiring diagram in the back of the owner's manual.  The diagram doesn't show the location of parts and connections but it still might help.

Any decent shop should be able to load test the battery for you.  

The second link I posted covers checking resistance by voltage drop.  Voltage drop is the voltage consumed by a conductor (wire), connection or load (bulb, motor etc.).  The circuit should be loaded, in your case, the starter trying to crank the engine over.  This is done by hooking up the voltmeter in parallel (across) the component.  Ideally a conductor or connection will read zero.  You are looking for less than .2 volts.  Oh, grounds too!
Title: Re: Battery Help
Post by: mysticbluex3 on May 06, 2011, 10:32:22 AM
So I retested the battery last night.  When the bike is off, it reads 12.5V.  When I turn the key to the on position (battery being loaded), the voltage immediately drops down to 0V.  [thumbsdown]  It then slowly increases up to 5V over the next few minutes.  Can anyone with battery knowledge chime in on how a battery can read 12.5V and then drop down to 0V when a load is put on it?   What is happening electrically?

The plan now is to get a new battery this weekend (or should I recharge the current one? would it be as good as new?), check all the connections/fuses and check the power coming out from the stator/regulator.  Afterward, maybe keep an eye on the charge every time I start the bike but before I start the engine.

Another question.  How can my battery go from being able to start the bike, to not?  I'm guessing somewhere in between the bike should have given me the battery low warning (when I turn the bike on but before I start the engine).  I believe "LO Battery" should flash when the voltage drops below a certain level but still have enough juice to power on.  But I never saw that warning?  I understand a battery can completely drain if I let my bike sit for months at a time.  But I never let my bike sit for longer than a few days at a time so I'm thinking I should have seen the in between period where the battery is weak enough to trigger the "LO Battery" but still strong enough to power on the bike.

Title: Re: Battery Help
Post by: Howie on May 06, 2011, 03:52:47 PM
Quote from: mysticbluex3 on May 06, 2011, 10:32:22 AM
So I retested the battery last night.  When the bike is off, it reads 12.5V.  When I turn the key to the on position (battery being loaded), the voltage immediately drops down to 0V.  [thumbsdown]  It then slowly increases up to 5V over the next few minutes.  Can anyone with battery knowledge chime in on how a battery can read 12.5V and then drop down to 0V when a load is put on it?   What is happening electrically?

The plan now is to get a new battery this weekend (or should I recharge the current one? would it be as good as new?), check all the connections/fuses and check the power coming out from the stator/regulator.  Afterward, maybe keep an eye on the charge every time I start the bike but before I start the engine.

Another question.  How can my battery go from being able to start the bike, to not?  I'm guessing somewhere in between the bike should have given me the battery low warning (when I turn the bike on but before I start the engine).  I believe "LO Battery" should flash when the voltage drops below a certain level but still have enough juice to power on.  But I never saw that warning?  I understand a battery can completely drain if I let my bike sit for months at a time.  But I never let my bike sit for longer than a few days at a time so I'm thinking I should have seen the in between period where the battery is weak enough to trigger the "LO Battery" but still strong enough to power on the bike.



12.5 volts is close to, but not a fully charged battery.  12.6-12.8 for a conventional battery, more for an AGM.  Anyway, voltage is only a sign of a charged battery, not a good battery.  As I said, a load test confirms your battery is good.  In this case it seems your battery failed a very minimum load test so I think it is safe to assume your battery is bad.  Yes, batteries can suffer quick death without warning.

After you install the new battery check charging system voltage to make sure the bike is not over or under charging.  You should read 13.5-14.5 volts at the battery at 3K RPM.
Title: Re: Battery Help
Post by: mysticbluex3 on May 07, 2011, 01:25:04 PM
So I replaced the battery this morning.  Despite what everyone says.  It is not that hard to remove the tank/fairings.  Took 15 minutes. ;D  Yeah there are like 10 screws you have to remove to get the fairings off.  But after that, it's pretty easy.  Two screws holding the tank (one on the right side of the frame, the other under the tail).  Disconnect the two rubber hose that goes to the top of the tank.  Slowly wiggle the tank back and prop it up w/ a piece of wood.

Took some readings off the old battery.
Battery by itself: 12.4V
Battery hooked up to bike w/ bike off: 10V
Battery hooked up to bike w/ key turned on: 6V

Took some readings off the new battery.
New Battery by itself: 13.33V
Battery hooked up to bike: 13.27V
Key turned on: 12.4V
Split second when the bike is starting: 11V
Bike running: 13.6V (doesn't matter what RPM, its the same voltage)
Bike turned off with lights on: 12.4V
Bike turned completely off:13.06V

All these measurements are made with a calibrated multimeter (from work) hooked up directly to the battery.  Instrument display shows almost the same readings.

Question: I thought the voltage should increase w/ RPM?  Mine shows 13.6V no matter how much I rev it.  Can someone post what voltage I should be seeing w/ the biking running at various RPMs?

I tried finding the connection to the stator/regulator (3 yellow wires?) But I couldn't find it.  I guess for now, I'm going to just keep an eye on the voltage readings and see if it drops over the next few weeks.  \

Thanks everyone who gave me advice.
Title: Re: Battery Help
Post by: Howie on May 07, 2011, 09:26:15 PM
Sounds like you are good to go.

Older Monster:
  Lift tank
  Change battery
We are spoiled ;D
Title: Re: Battery Help
Post by: Ddan on May 08, 2011, 02:44:29 AM
Quote from: mysticbluex3 on May 07, 2011, 01:25:04 PM

Question: I thought the voltage should increase w/ RPM?  Mine shows 13.6V no matter how much I rev it.  Can someone post what voltage I should be seeing w/ the biking running at various RPMs?

I tried finding the connection to the stator/regulator (3 yellow wires?) But I couldn't find it.  I guess for now, I'm going to just keep an eye on the voltage readings and see if it drops over the next few weeks.  \

Thanks everyone who gave me advice.
Those readings are OK.  Your voltage regulator *should* keep the output to 13.5v-14.5v regardless of RPM.  Older Monsters wouldn't get to 13.5v until 2500 RPM or so
Title: Re: Battery Help
Post by: mysticbluex3 on May 09, 2011, 08:21:06 AM
As I park my bike in a carport with no power outlet, having leads for a battery tender really does me no good.  I'm thinking about installing some leads to the battery so I can jump my bike if this ever happens again.  How about some 8 gauge wires with a 30amp fuse running from the battery terminals to under the seat?

or

Can I just jump the bike from the battery tender leads?  I'm not sure what gauge the battery tender leads are or what amp fuse is in line on the battery tender leads.

Does anyone know how many amps the bike will draw when starting?
Title: Re: Battery Help
Post by: 64duc on May 09, 2011, 08:38:14 AM
  Never checked it on my bike, your car draws 150 to 200. Educated guess, 30 to 50.
Title: Re: Battery Help
Post by: Howie on May 09, 2011, 11:06:45 AM
Quote from: mysticbluex3 on May 09, 2011, 08:21:06 AM
As I park my bike in a carport with no power outlet, having leads for a battery tender really does me no good.  I'm thinking about installing some leads to the battery so I can jump my bike if this ever happens again.  How about some 8 gauge wires with a 30amp fuse running from the battery terminals to under the seat?

or

Can I just jump the bike from the battery tender leads?  I'm not sure what gauge the battery tender leads are or what amp fuse is in line on the battery tender leads.

Does anyone know how many amps the bike will draw when starting?

Your starter could draw 60 amps or more, depending on conditions.  A method of jumping the bike without accessing the battery is positive to the lug on the starter, negative to engine ground.  Make sure the bike is in neutral since you are bypassing all safeties.
Title: Re: Battery Help
Post by: mysticbluex3 on May 09, 2011, 10:23:41 PM
Took my old battery to the shop tonight to have it charged and load tested.  They said the battery wouldn't even take a charge.  Probably a bad cell.  That's good to know.  Now I feel more confident that it was just a bad battery and not something wrong w/ the regulator/stator.  :)