Last year I picked up a used 2007 S2R 1000 with the ECU, Termi and air filter upgrade. It ran very smoothly until I replaced the utter with mid-pipes. Since then, I get progressive surging, over-revving (3000 rpm) and stalling at idol. It's gotten so bad that I don't feel safe riding it.
I no longer have a Ducati mechanic anywhere near where I live, so it's entirely in my (in)capable hands.
I understand that this is a well documented issue having something to do with the O2 sensor. I also understand that my options are either to send my ECU to Anthony at Desmoworks for a reflash ($250), or buy a Nemisis ECU from SilverBack ($950.00). Clearly, the reflash option is WAY more enticing given the price. But, will it fix my problems?
http://www.ducatiperformance.com/ducati-ecu-reflash-p-150097.html (http://www.ducatiperformance.com/ducati-ecu-reflash-p-150097.html)
http://www.silverbackperformance.net/nemesis.html (http://www.silverbackperformance.net/nemesis.html)
Presuming that the reflash is the solution to all my problems (please, chime in here if you can provide some reassurance - or alternate direction), then I'm also presuming that this would be the time to ditch the air box and go with pod filters so that I don't have to do a second reflash later on?
As always, your wisdom and experience are greatly appreciated.
Epi
disconnect the 02 sensor
If the O2 sensor is the part that attaches to the exhaust system... it was removed before I bought it, presumably when the ECU/Termi kit was installed. If it's something else, I'd love to know where it is! Would be great if it were simple and cheep!
i was under the impression the Lambda was teh problem.. oh well!
www.desmoporsche.com (//http://) - flashed mine and now it runs great and adjusting the tps
Fat Duc o2 sensor manipulator
http://www.webbikeworld.com/t2/fat-duc-o2-sensor-manipulator/ (http://www.webbikeworld.com/t2/fat-duc-o2-sensor-manipulator/)
If I'm not mistaken, the OP said he had the Termi kit. So the FatDuc, which is a bandaid anyway, won't do any good. Termi kit/DP ECU for the 1k gets rid of the closed loop system, and is the only way to get a 1k to run properly.
I would ask the original poster to confirm and make absolutely sure that he is not in fact running the stock ECU with the closed loop fueling setup. Also confirm the throttle bodies and TPS aren't horribly out of whack.
Berg...
Yes, according to the folks at Atlantic Motoplex, where I bought the bike, it has the Termi kit. I have no reason not to believe them, nonetheless - how can I verify that it has the DP ECU? I'm presuming that it would be written on the ECU somewhere?
As for the throttle bodies, I found this thread
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=40308.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=40308.0)
I will try and digest it all over the weekend. Any other sources of information would be greatly appreciated.
My understanding of TPS is that it can only be adjusted by way of a new map being flashed to the ECU. Correct?
Also, am I assuming correctly from your response that the addition of the mid-pipes should not be causing these problems? ie - the removal of the CC from the system should not alter air flow to the point of needing a new map on the DP ECU - also, that since it is a closed loop, the usual causes (O2) don't apply?
Hi if your bike ran good with the utter on it is not a dp ecu. I tried my reflashed ecu on my bike with the utter ran like shit then put my pipes on and it started to come around like it should .stoped by the ducati shop and they adjusted the tps for $55
"Hi if your bike ran good with the utter on it is not a dp ecu"
Is it possible that it does have the DP ECU, but the TPS was set for the air restricitons inherent to the utter? Would that cause the current list of problems at idol? The reason I ask this is that the lack of an O2 sensor seems to indicate that it does have a closed loop - which implies the DP ECU. If I understand your responces correctly, regardless if the ECU is stock or DP - the TPS should be adjusted. At least I hope this is the case, since this is the only course of action I can reasonably take at this time.
From what I can tell, the throttle body is fine - but I really have nothing to compare it to - so its just a reasonable guess based on very limited knowledge and experience. If the throttle body were out of whack - would that not effect the entire range? Because its only at the 'zero' position that things get wonky.
The presence of an O2 sensor closes the loop, not the lack of one.
The cheapest solution to your problem is to put the stock collector midpipe back on it and ride it. It might be ugly but that's better than the bike running poorly.
You really need to figure out what it is that you are dealing with. Like finding out definitively if you have a Termi kit or not. That would help. Don't assume you do because the dealer told you so.
Revisit your midpipe installation and look for signs of exhaust leaks. Post photos of your exhaust setup, airbox, ECU, etc.
Throttle bodies must be checked out for sync. Homemade manometers are cheap to assemble and do the job admirably.
If the TPS needs a reset you're up shit creek and have to go to a dealer or else you can buy a VDST and do it yourself.
More money and time is required to fix your problems regardless. This is why I recommend you stick the stock collector back on and enjoy(don't forget the gaskets). If it ain't broke don't break it. I understand the udder is killerbomb ugly but it worked before you messed with it. Maybe if you painted it black you could deal with the look.
If you wish to continue and spend more money to make it right, people are here to help. But we need pics.
True - fitting the udder back is the final solution - but, I'd rather not give up just yet.
I've pretty much confirmed that it is the 'full meal deal' upgrade. Termi slip-ons, open air box and an ECU with sn 96517406B.
I used liquid gasket to seal the exhaust joints when I installed the mid-pipe last year. So far, no signs of leakage.
Here are the photos - sorry for the 'iphone quality'.
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x430/epimetheus2/th_IMG_0045.jpg) (http://s1181.photobucket.com/albums/x430/epimetheus2/?action=view¤t=IMG_0045.jpg)
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x430/epimetheus2/th_IMG_0046.jpg) (http://s1181.photobucket.com/albums/x430/epimetheus2/?action=view¤t=IMG_0046.jpg)
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x430/epimetheus2/th_IMG_0047.jpg) (http://s1181.photobucket.com/albums/x430/epimetheus2/?action=view¤t=IMG_0047.jpg)
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x430/epimetheus2/th_IMG_0050.jpg) (http://s1181.photobucket.com/albums/x430/epimetheus2/?action=view¤t=IMG_0050.jpg)
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x430/epimetheus2/th_IMG_0051.jpg) (http://s1181.photobucket.com/albums/x430/epimetheus2/?action=view¤t=IMG_0051.jpg)
(http://i1181.photobucket.com/albums/x430/epimetheus2/th_IMG_0053.jpg) (http://s1181.photobucket.com/albums/x430/epimetheus2/?action=view¤t=IMG_0053.jpg)
Fair enough, so you do have the kit, along with a nice solo seat. [thumbsup] Now the question is whether the slipon kit does away with the O2 sensor or not. I believe that for the 1k the full system omits it. The udder is replaced by a straight midpipe and the ECU is not programmed to provide for it. I'm just not sure the slipon kit is the same. Full systems are supposed to be for race only(track), slipon kits are for street and they use the stock udder. What may have happened in your case is you made your slipon kit into a race kit without notifying your ECU.
Now build a manometer(instructions are everywhere) and check the throttle body sync. Screw both air bleeds in all the way, hook up your manometer, rev bike to 3k or so @ operating temp, adjust the throttle butterfly screw if needed to balance the fluid levels. Remove manometer and plug the sync ports. Unscrew the air bleeds 3 turns. Then unscrew evenly until idle is a steady 1200. I once messed my TB sync up and the idle drifted up and down in an erratic manner which is why I am telling you to check it. Doesn't cost much at all to do this.
Of course do clean/check all electrical connections, and take a look at the plugs to make sure everything is good in that regard. Checking is cheap.
Next step which will require a bigger monetary investment is to take the bike to a dealer to reset TPS or buy a VDST and do it yourself. If you were to reprogram the ECU to full race spec(if there is even a difference from slipon spec) you will still need to reset the TPS upon installation.
What you need to do is send a personal message to Speeddog or brad black and and ask one of them to comment.
I'm not sure if the slip-on kit removes the O2 either - but mine definitely does not have an O2 sensor - so I'm going with 'yes' on that one.
I found a video of someone doing the sync on a FZ6, and think I get the idea. What I need to know is the exact location of the sync ports, butterfly screws and air bleeds for each of the two valves (picture w/ arrows anyone?).
Electrical connections are all good - I cleaned and greased with dialectic during my annual spring cleaning.
As for the solo seat - thanks... bought it used and spent months refurbishing it (like everything else on my bike). Working on fixing up a cf tank right now.
the Lambda (o2) sensor is not on the slip on section, it is on the "udder" section of the exhaust. IF the udder is gone, then the lambda is gone.
Yes, the O2 bung... There was no O2 sensor attached to the bung on the catalytic converter (utter) when I replaced it with straight mid-pipes. The straight mid-pipes which are on the bike currently also has an O2 bung, but it's currently occupied with a brass plug.
UPDATE:
I've ordered velocity stacks and K&N pod filters as well as a re-flashed ECU to reflect the changes in my bike. I'm in this far, I may as well go all the way.
The course of action I plan to take is 1) figuring out how to sync my throttle body, and 2) finding a cheap source for the VDSP to reset my TPS. LT has one on his site.
I will be doing this in two phases - I'll sync the throttle bodies and reset TPS while i wait for the new parts to come in. I'll repeat the process once I install the new parts, and hopefully by then I'll know what I'm doing.
There is currently no how-to on the board with respect to either process - I've got a crappy camera, but would be willing to write it up on the second round - based on my searches on the forum, there seems to be an appetite for it.
You didn't need to do that. You could have made your setup work well without spending money needlessly. You may find the pod filters do not give you the performance gain you think they will. You already have a Termi kit. Your bike needs tuning, not more parts.
put baffles in the mid pipe to simulate the restrictiveness of the udder? just a thought
as far as i knew there was only one dp map for the s2r1000, the one supplied with the muffler kits. there wasn't a "full system" ecu offered. so i expect what you're getting with the reflashed ecu is what you already have.
did the bike run badly as soon as you put the header pipe on, or did it slowly get bad?
"so i expect what you're getting with the reflashed ecu is what you already have."
crap. BUT, they're also getting rid of the immobilizer and such - which is worth the cost in my opinion.. that immobilizer antenna was the bane of my existence on my last Duc. But that's another story.
"did the bike run badly as soon as you put the header pipe on, or did it slowly get bad"
Progressively and intermittently. Just pulled the spark plugs out (should have done this first - live and learn) and they were black, dry and 'fluffy' looking - so, running rich? I know that a dirty filter can cause this - but the filter doesn't look especially dirty. No matter, new filters were ordered, and should be en route by now (I hope).
New plugs did help somewhat, but I've read that an engine running rich can do damage - so I've put her away for now.
Ignorance is NOT cheap. :-\
OK, I'm ready to attempt a throttle body sync â€" but I still have some questions, and would like to make sure that I'm not missing any critical concepts here. Your input would be greatly appreciated. I'll turn it into a how-to with pictures if it ends up being successful.
I understand that the concept is to ensure that each side of the throttle body is demonstrating equal vacuum pressure.
I don't have a VDST, or a CO2 gas analyzer. How critical are these tools to the process?Symptoms of the throttle bodies being out of sync include surging (400RPM/2000RPM), stalling and revving (3000RPM) at idle; and, the engine may vibrate with throttle.
I understand this to be the general process:
1. Build a manometer.
- I built mine with 10 feet of 3/16" inside diameter (ID) tubing and a bit of oil, and I used a wooden yardstick to hold the tubing in place and made a hook to hang it from the handle bars.
- Google video search for “manometer throttle†was very useful in this regard.
2. Get the engine up to operating temperature.
- CAUTION: Wear a thick long sleeve shirt and mechanics gloves so as not to burn the crap out of myself.
3. Locate the two vacuum sync ports on the throttle body, and connect the manometer.
- connect one end to the manometer tubing to the vacuum sync port on the horizontal throttle, and the other end of the tubing to the vertical.
- I figured out that these are the ports that connected the throttle bodies to my emission canister with a “T†line â€" they are very close to the cylinder head near the black rubber part that connects the throttle body. Correct?
- Thankfully, when I replaced the nipple bolts on the throttle body with machine screws I kept the nipple bolts! YEAH ME!!.
- Unfortunately, it's Friday the 13th of may... and I sheared off the top of the nipple bolt. Be gentle putting that thing in - now i need to find a really tiny extractor and a new nipple bolt. [bang]
4. Locate and gently tighten the 2 air bleed screws all the way in.
- Still working on that part â€" can't seem to identify them… where should I be looking, specifically?
5. Bring the bike to 3000 rpm and check manometer.
- Although I haven't tried it - I'm thinking that because I don't have 6 hands, I can tighten the throttle cable until it runs steady at 3000, then re-set it once I'm done. Holding the throttle steady while reading the manometer while adjusting the screws seems a little more than I can manage personally.
6. Adjust the throttle butterfly screw to balance fluid levels in manometer.
- Butterfly screw… this is the screw with yellow paint on it directly behind the radiator… right? If this is the case, then removing the radiator from its mounting seems necessary to get access.
7. Blip the throttle gently after adjusting the butterfly screw and check manometer. Repeat until balanced.
- CAUTION: Apparently, too fast a drop in throttle may result in the engine aspirating the fluid in my manometer… GENTLY!
7. Remove manometer and plug the sync ports.
8. Unscrew the bleed ports three turns
- Three turns... like three full rotations, 1080 degrees? I've read elsewhere that it is best to turn the air bleed screws in unison until the idle reached the idle set-point in the ECU (1200 RPM). Is this correct?
Again, thanks for all your help.
Hey Episteme, et al:
I am wondering if you went through with the throttle body sync, and if so, could you please update your procedure and describe some of the locations of ports/screws/etc. I have to do the same, but have yet to find a comprehensive procedure. BTW, I am waiting for the pieces for my homemade manometer to get here, so I have a day or so... If you could assist, I would greatly appreciate it, especially with pics!! [bow_down]
BTW, I have an '06 S2R 1000 with a marving midpipe, cored exhaust cans (did that myself), reflashed ECU to match the termi system, and now I have rough idle (400-2000rpm), stalling when I pull in the clutch/idle, and a sort of misfire/dive on some accelerations from stop... every time I take my bike in, I get it back with worse performance, so it is time to take matters into my own hands.
Thanks for your assistance!
I'm definitely interested in this thread, too!
Resetting TPS is something that is good to do and VDSTS may be the best way to go. I added a midpipe to my s2r1000 and it had the slipon kit, but i found out the map is the same for both full and slipon kit. My midpipe didn't change much of anything about how the bike ran except the exhaust noise increase and the intake honk decrease.
My bike hunts idle between 400-2000rpm, used to be able to stop it hunting with throttle blip, but no luck lately. A couple restarts usually fixes it and it only hunts right after startup if its going to do it. I'll also be balancing the throttle bodies my bike soon.
Well, I finally got all the right tools, (thanks especially to Morgan Carbtune--www.carbtune.com) and completed a throttle body synch twice. I definitely would advise against making your own manometer--I did for the first synch, but it was a MUCH bigger hassle than the money you save... I was always concerned with the fluid entering the intakes, it was very touchy (and I was using ATF; water would be worse), and although it worked, it was a painful process. I bit the bullet and got the Morgan Carbtune and oh, happy days!! Super easy to operate, the metal slugs mean you aren't worried about anything going in the intake, easy to read, and it comes with so many adapters, I can use it on my other motorcycle (Honda) and cars. I also went and bought the Technoresearch VDSTS software so I could reset the TPS, rather than dealing with the free one on the French website--just not worth the hassle. It also came in handy when I needed to make the fuel mix a bit more rich (too much popping when I closed the throttle). Anyway, I will follow up with a video soon, but I was successful--she runs really nice now, consistent idle, and no popping on decelleration!! Time for a beer! [drink]
Just out of curiousity, what did you settle on as your trimmer value? Also, about where did you set your air bleeds?
I have my S2R1k at trim=16 with both airbleeds about 1/4 out from fully closed after the TB sync I did . It runs pretty well like that and I have almost the exact same fueling mods you do (open airbox, midpipe, DPECU).