Hi, I just bought my first bike a couple weeks ago, an '01 Monster 600 and have a question about lean angles. I noticed when I was following my friend on his Monster 900 that I seem to have to lean a whole lot more than him to take the same corner at the same speed. I feel like I cannot be anywhere near the cornering abilities of this bike at the speeds I ride at now, but in order to get there I would have to be scraping the ground pretty hard. I haven't hit my pegs on the ground yet, and I ride on the balls of my feet so my toes are ok, but are there any tricks to take a corner at a higher speed with less lean or do I just need to keep going until I start to scrape? Thanks, Jon.
1. Don't try to ride at the same pace as your friend, go at your own pace.
2. Hanging off the bike helps with this. Once you have more miles under your belt, sign up for a track school so you can learn more about how body position affects cornering.
Quote from: msincredible on June 14, 2008, 09:19:08 PM
1. Don't try to ride at the same pace as your friend, go at your own pace.
2. Hanging off the bike helps with this. Once you have more miles under your belt, sign up for a track school so you can learn more about how body position affects cornering.
+11Tyb.
First bike, new rider,
Take the MSF if you haven't.
If you have taken it, take the MSF Advanced Riders Course.
After that, go to track school.
As Msinc. said, do not try to keep up with your buddy, it's only gonna get ugly if you do.
That said, you might benefit a little from watching motogp or Wsbk and watch the riders and how they hang off and transition on the bike.
The whole concept of cornering on the motorcycle depends on centrifugal acceleration. that means that the more mass that is towards the inside of the corner, the sharper you will turn.
The reason why your buddy is able to turn quicker without leaning so much into corners, is because he hangs off the bike more than you do (Ie: puts more of mass of
his body towards the inside of the corner). To match this, you are forced to countersteer more and lean the bike over more (you put more of the mass of
the bike towards the inside of the corner).
If you do this, you run the risk of losing traction because of an ever smaller tyre contact patch (the more you lean the bike over, the less tyre is actually making contact with the ground). This is bad. This is how you get into a wreck.
So to recap, go to riding schools and get taught how to hang off properly and improve your riding skills. If you do this, you'll be riding circles around your buddy's 900 in no time...
If you're slow to lean it into a corner, you'll need to lean more to make the same turn. Many new riders hesitate to get the bike leaned, so they're not turning as sharply at the beginning.
Don't try keeping up with a faster rider. That's a good way to crash. Been there. Done that. Don't ever want to do it again.
Just my opinion, but on the street, I wouldn't push it hard enough to need those extra degrees of lean angle I get from hanging off the bike. Just think about it. How much time would you have to stop if someone on the other side of that turn was encroaching on your lane? What about gravel, sand, birdseed, oil, and whatever other kinds of debris you can think of? Only ever ride to 3/10-4/10 of your ability. Leave the rest for Murphy!
Like others have said, learn performance riding on the track. Take ERC. There are a couple of other parking lot schools out there, too, like Total Control by Lee Parks. And what you learn on the track, keep at the track. You can use your confidence you've learned on the track to save you in pucker moments, but don't make pucker moments all on your own. Leave that job to the idiots and the road conditions.
First of all, I just took the MSF course this weekend, and it was the biggest waste of time/money ever. I was required to take it to get my license, but everything they tought I already knew and I scored 100% on both the written and riding parts of the test. I have ridden ATV's for 9 years, but just got started on dirt bikes a little over a month ago. I wasn't trying to "keep up" with my friend, and I would never ride at a pace I wasn't comfortable with, I was riding the same speed with him as I do alone, I just noticed he seemed to be leaning a lot less. I am also not afraid to lean the bike, I just feel that it has to have so much more potential than I am using, but don't know if I will be able to get there without scraping. Right now I would think I am riding at about 40-50% of what the bike is capable of, but I only have about 3/8" chicken strips on the rear tire. I am not trying to use up all of my tire, but rather carry a little more speed while still having a margin of safety. Why would I even buy a bike that I only use 3/10 of its potential? That seems ridiculous to me. I would never ride at 100% on the street, but on clear roads with no traffic I would think that riding at 70-80% could be doable and safe. I'm not talking about getting my knee down or anything, just picking up the pace through the corners and looking for more help.
Quote from: Ducatista on June 15, 2008, 02:19:44 PM
Only ever ride to 3/10-4/10 of your ability. Leave the rest for Murphy!
You might as well ride a Harley Softtail or something if that's all the faster you want to go.
It's possible to safely ride at about 80% if you take lines as suggested by David L. Hough in Proficient Motorcycling. I would be bored to death at 30%.
Quote from: gatorgrizz27 on June 15, 2008, 03:38:55 PMI'm not talking about getting my knee down or anything, just picking up the pace through the corners and looking for more help.
Understandable, but it's hard for us to help you with specifics without seeing the way you ride or without more specific questions from you.
In addition to a track school (which is far different than the MSF course) you might want to check out some of the recommended reading (http://ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=857.0).
track school. we can discuss it all we want, and techniques like the quick turn in and body position mentioned above are absolutely key, but you will learn so much more much more quickly with instructors following you on a track and giving feedback.
Quote from: ScottRNelson on June 15, 2008, 08:24:23 PM
You might as well ride a Harley Softtail or something if that's all the faster you want to go.
It's possible to safely ride at about 80% if you take lines as suggested by David L. Hough in Proficient Motorcycling. I would be bored to death at 30%.
[laugh] I guess it all depends on where that 100% of your skill is! [thumbsup] I guess I'm going with the logarithmic model of perception. If 100% of your skill is to take a turn at 60 mph, then 50% of your skill means a helluva lot faster than taking that corner at 30 mph. Bleh, that's what I get for doing studies in ergonomics in college.
And don't knock Harleys or their riders. I'm sure Moto ST racer, Tim Morrow, could show you just how much a Harley can perform.
Alright, I guess I just need to keep riding and practicing for awhile and figure it out. I know track school is definitely the best way, and I would love to go in the future, but I feel like it would be a waste of money right now as I have not developed my skills enough to take advantage of the instruction.
So buy a book, while it is no substitute for professional instruction, you can learn a lot in the meantime until you are ready for that first trackday school.
Based on what you're saying (some riding experience but new to street riding) I'd suggest buying Keith Code's Twist of the Wrist II book and trying to apply some of the concepts to your street riding. This is a decent precursor to taking a riding school or signing up for track days, I think.
Let us not all forget that perception is a HUGE factor here as well. It could be that newbie factor of percieved lean angle.. you may be leaning just as far as your buddy is, but you dont think you are. Or the opposite is true, you may think he is leaning way more than he actually is... just throwing out nonsense possibly as well.. LOL
Total Control by: Lee Parks,read it apply it,then practice,practice,practice!!!!
Quote from: Cabbie on June 18, 2008, 07:29:40 PM
Let us not all forget that perception is a HUGE factor here as well. It could be that newbie factor of percieved lean angle.. you may be leaning just as far as your buddy is, but you dont think you are. Or the opposite is true, you may think he is leaning way more than he actually is... just throwing out nonsense possibly as well.. LOL
no cabbie, i think it's sensical...all newbies feel they are leaning over and they aren't...I'm a newbie and I swear that I'm doing corners like Doohan, but really it's a 10˚ lean and I've got 35˚ to go.
I was rapt when a bloke following me asked if the bike was difficult to turn because I was using a heap of body english - at least it meant that I really was hanging off / moving around.
so if the wise suggest track days....at what stage should this bloke go? 3000 miles? 3 months?
Quote from: Spider on June 19, 2008, 12:43:54 AM
so if the wise suggest track days....at what stage should this bloke go? 3000 miles? 3 months?
My wife went to a track school after riding one summer. She said it was the best thing she could have done.
Quote from: duc996 on June 18, 2008, 10:39:25 PM
Total Control by: Lee Parks,read it apply it,then practice,practice,practice!!!!
+11tyb..
That, and Twist/Wrist II are both loaded w/good cornering info..
-Basically if you want to start hanging off a bit in the corners, the first thing to try would be to position your upper body towards the inside of the turn. You have to get used to this
before you start thinking about moving your lower body/butt off of the seat. Many people
think they're hanging off by moving their lower body towards the inside while their upper body remains centered. This is called being "crossed up" which actually does more bad than good..
-Try these three things next time you're taking a corner...This is how I learned:
1: As you're about to coutersteer, position your chest + head slightly towards the inside handlebar (Don't worry about what your butt's doing right now).
2: Stay on the balls of your feet, but focus more weight on your OUTSIDE foot, which helps to still feel connected to the bike, rather than falling off of it.
3: Look as
Far through the turn as possible, and smoothly throttle through the turn without making any additional steering inputs until you're ready to start your exit sequence..
Stay loose on the bars!!!- You'll likely find that you just took the turn as fast as you normally do, but the bike was leaned over much less than usual. Once you feel more and more comfortable with this,
then you can think about increasing the amount that your upper body is shifting, in addition to hanging a cheek off of the seat...
- The goal is to compensate for not leaning the bike as much by hanging off + letting your body weight do the work. Not leaning the bike as much equals the ability to take the turn faster....See where all this is going?? ;)
-I practice this ALL THE TIME, and the key is baby steps. start by mildly changing body position and work your way up....Sitting there like a stiff on the bike goes against what the bike is
wanting to do while its leaned over.
Hope this helps!! 8)
Quote from: gatorgrizz27 on June 16, 2008, 03:28:27 PM
Alright, I guess I just need to keep riding and practicing for awhile and figure it out. I know track school is definitely the best way, and I would love to go in the future, but I feel like it would be a waste of money right now as I have not developed my skills enough to take advantage of the instruction.
OLA everyone! Glad to make the switch to this site :) As a coach with the California Superbike School, this is something that I hear very often. A lot of riders think that a track school would be more beneficial once they have developed more skills/had more practice, however, the schools are where you are going to develop the CORRECT skills. It makes no sense really to keep practicing something on the street that is incorrect, only to go to the school and have to UNLEARN bad habits. I see it all the time. So, if you are thinking of going to a school, I would suggest sooner rather than later.
Now, with that said, I think that the original question was a really good one. It is quite possible that Gatorgrizz27 IS leaning over more than his riding buddy while going slower through the corner. As some of you have touched on, it most likely has something to do with body position on the bike. If you go around a corner and your body stays upright, or leans a little bit opposite to the direction of the turn (which is extremely common) then you are going to end up leaning the bike over MORE than you need, and you risk scraping pegs or hard parts which is a BAD idea. As someone suggested, if you get your body over to the inside of the turn you can essentially get around the corner with LESS Lean angle. There tends to be a misunderstanding out there about leaning. Lots of people want to lean the bike over as FAR AS POSSIBLE to get rid of chicken strips, go faster etc, but there are many benefits of getting around a turn with LESS lean angle. What are some of biggest reason's why you want less lean angle around a turn, and are there any other ways to lean the bike over less in a corner while going the same speed or faster?
Cherio!
Misti
www.superbikeschool.com
www.mistihurst.com
Thanks a lot for the more helpful info, especially to Johnster and Misti. I have the total control book and have been reading through it, stuff like the body positioning is what I am looking for. In the MSF course all they tell you is that you need to lean the bike to make it turn = not that helpful. I will try some of this stuff out and keep practicing, anyone know of a good track school in the north florida (tallahassee) area or somewhere nearby? Thanks, Jon.
Quote from: misti on June 19, 2008, 01:49:36 PM
OLA everyone! Glad to make the switch to this site :)
Misti
www.superbikeschool.com
www.mistihurst.com
Glad you are here and posting. Looking forward to levels 3 and 4 in September at VIR.
Chris
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Quote from: misti on June 19, 2008, 01:49:36 PM
OLA everyone! Glad to make the switch to this site :)
Misti
www.superbikeschool.com
www.mistihurst.com
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Glad you wandered over! Great article on tank slappers, btw. We're looking forward to CSS Level 1 at Laguna in November. [moto]
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Awesome! You will have so much fun!!! That is where I took level one and level two when I was a student [moto]
Ride Safe!
Misti