Only started making it in last week or so. I haven't ridden it much due to the weather. It's booked in for a valve adjustment and belt replacement soon.
I shot the video with an iphone 4 but the sound comes across ok. It's like a tapping noise, my first thought was valves but it doesn't make it when the engine is cold.
Any ideas?
Monster noise (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6MNAcfdk-Q&feature=youtube_gdata_player#normal)
The bike has open airbox with Termis and the ECU.
Thanks guys
Possibly the clutch hub nut, or flywheel nut is loose.
that doesn't sound promising...
Is that a complicated or expensive fix?
No, especially if they're doing an oil change as part of the service.
If it's either of those things, then it's just a matter of pulling off the side case, remove/loctite/replace whichever one is loose, and then buttoning it back up. Maybe an hour to do both?
Also, how many miles does the bike have on it?
26000 km or 16000 miles
I, too, have a 695, (2007). And it is also making strange sounds from what I believe I have narrowed down as the right side, possibly clutch area. It's a very odd "put," knocking noise happening very randomly maybe 5-20 times per minute. Only at lower RPM, especially if I am trying to work the throttle and clutch in a turn from a stop. Almost never at high/cruising RPM.
Basically, I know the flywheel nut coming loose is a common problem. I was going to try and open up the right side cover and take a look, but can anyone tell me if the pressure plate and the flywheel are the same thing? I sure as hell can't find such an answer ANYWHERE on the internet and am very frustrated.
From watching this sweet ca cycleworks video on changing a wet clutch, I'm confident I can open it up and take a look at the very least, but I have no idea if the 'pressure plate' and the flywheel are the same thing! I'm hoping that what he calls the 'pressure plate' in this video is the same thing as flywheel. Ducatitech.com "How to" Wet Clutch Install (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFv6YIK3WyY#) If it's not, where is it? I sure as hell don't want to go behind that basket and all that. That type of thing scares me! ???
Thanks so much for your help!
-noob
Also, I meant to add, as this seems quite odd and unlike anyone else's problems I can find around the web, but the bike's RPM's drop a tiny bit when this popping/knocking/putt noise happens. [My thinking, not to put the horse before the carriage here, is that if there is a nut loose and is jostling around inside the clutch, it's catching somewhere, causing the noise and resistance which is what is making the engine drop until it is thrown free.] In addition, it also occurs (though less pronounced and frequent) when the bike is at a stop in neutral. Working the clutch seems to make no difference (when stopped) but revving the motor (SLIGHTLY) does seem to make it happen more (possibly when the RPM's are thereafter winding down).
It first happened very, very rarely, but over the last 6 months, it is happening more and more, especially now that I have moved down from 6,000 ft to 1,000 ft in elevation. I took it to a dealer before I moved and he could absolutely not put a finger on what it was without taking the bike apart.
OK, I think that's all the pertinent information. I am going to try to take video and post it up here as soon as possible.
-Extremely Perplexed Noob
Mine was one of the main bearings disintegrating. I checked the flywheel nut and then the clutch. Was looking at the oil pump when I noticed that one of the bearings was scarred and slowly flaking off.
I had been finding bits of metal in the oil screen and on the plug.
Flywheel is on the left side as your sitting on it.
I got lucky when a dmf'er sold me the engine from his totaled 695.
Quote from: C11Gidasi on February 01, 2012, 07:22:22 PM
[snip] ...but can anyone tell me if the pressure plate and the flywheel are the same thing?
They are not.
The pressure plate is exactly that and only that. It squishes your clutch pack together.
The flywheel is on the other side of the bike. There should be a glass window on the left side of the bike near the clutch slave cylinder. You can see your flywheel through that window. Pulling the left side case "requires" a special tool.
I see. Thanks for the reply! I just found this:
http://www.ducati.ms/forums/80-hall-wisdom/38036-1999-2000-flywheel-alternator-rotor-retaining-nut-problem.html (http://www.ducati.ms/forums/80-hall-wisdom/38036-1999-2000-flywheel-alternator-rotor-retaining-nut-problem.html)
which has some good info, but is making me think it's probably not in fact the flywheel nut, also because my noise is on the right side. In that case, any ideas as to what that strange noise and associated lurch could be?
sl8r, how much did that engine run you?
Hey, here's a link to a video I took, which if you have a good sound system can give you some insight on the noise.
Now, pertinent information first:
-It's hard to notice at the beginning of the video, but most obvious around 0:55 to 1:10. Watch there for the best demo. I am holding the throttle steady there.
-Also, I am holding the throttle steady from 0:15 through 0:22 and look how much fluctuation I get!
-There is a jet flying over that can be heard at 0:35, not to be alarmed.
http://youtu.be/rpWZYz9NT4U (http://youtu.be/rpWZYz9NT4U)
Also, question for Buckethead, my left side cover has a black plate with two bolts on it that looks like a glass window could be fitted in there as an aftermarket piece. I'm thinking of maybe accessing that compartment through that small hatch to inspect. Do you know if there is any kind of gasket I would need if I were to remove and then replace this hatch? Heres a picture of what I mean http://db.tt/bt4QUhaV (http://db.tt/bt4QUhaV)
Hmm... almost sounds like a slight backfire. Have you messed with your intake or exhaust at all?
That hatch is how you pull of that whole side cover. You pull off the hatch, screw in a special plate, then use another screw to push the whole assembly away from the engine. Monsterparts.com has a really nice version HERE (http://www.monsterparts.com/pc/SSRDAT/Maintenance/SSRDAT.html).
There's a green (at least mine was green) o-ring on the back that can be re-used, or easily replaced if damaged. Should be less than $1 at a dealer. I don't see any problem with pulling that cover to check for a loose flywheel nut, just be careful what you go jamming into the engine.
Out of curiosity, is that circle above and to the right of the alternator cover (hatch) solid metal? Or is that just glare off the glass? That should be the inspection window I mentioned earlier. Like so:
(http://www.steinborn.org/jim/monster/alternator.jpg)
Quote from: C11Gidasi on February 02, 2012, 06:46:08 PM
Hey, here's a link to a video I took, which if you have a good sound system can give you some insight on the noise.
Now, pertinent information first:
-It's hard to notice at the beginning of the video, but most obvious around 0:55 to 1:10. Watch there for the best demo. I am holding the throttle steady there.
-Also, I am holding the throttle steady from 0:15 through 0:22 and look how much fluctuation I get!
-There is a jet flying over that can be heard at 0:35, not to be alarmed.
http://youtu.be/rpWZYz9NT4U (http://youtu.be/rpWZYz9NT4U)
Also, question for Buckethead, my left side cover has a black plate with two bolts on it that looks like a glass window could be fitted in there as an aftermarket piece. I'm thinking of maybe accessing that compartment through that small hatch to inspect. Do you know if there is any kind of gasket I would need if I were to remove and then replace this hatch? Heres a picture of what I mean http://db.tt/bt4QUhaV (http://db.tt/bt4QUhaV)
Yep, sounds like a backfire through the intake. Too many possible causes, but it sounds possible lean misfire. Any work done to the bike recently?
Quote from: Buckethead on February 02, 2012, 08:39:06 PM
Out of curiosity, is that circle above and to the right of the alternator cover (hatch) solid metal? Or is that just glare off the glass? That should be the inspection window I mentioned earlier. Like so:
That circle is indeed solid metal with an allen wrench fitting in the middle. Interesting that yours has a window there. Sorry about the poor picture, I was trying to be timely and it was dark out. Here's a better one from just now:
http://db.tt/sMw85S2e (http://db.tt/sMw85S2e)
By the way, how do you embed a picture like that?
Quote from: howie on February 02, 2012, 09:54:17 PM
Yep, sounds like a backfire through the intake. Too many possible causes, but it sounds possible lean misfire. Any work done to the bike recently?
Well, as far as work done, there have been no mods. But like I said it just came back from the shop for its 15,000 mile service where they did sync the throttle bodies, but it had this problem before the 15,000 mile service. Once or twice I ran it for with no pipes while I was painting them. Someone said this could do no harm. Maybe I caused something then?
Any advice on what the next step to take would be?
Quote from: C11Gidasi on February 03, 2012, 05:48:20 AM
That circle is indeed solid metal with an allen wrench fitting in the middle. Interesting that yours has a window there. Sorry about the poor picture, I was trying to be timely and it was dark out. Here's a better one from just now:
http://db.tt/sMw85S2e (http://db.tt/sMw85S2e)
By the way, how do you embed a picture like that?
Well, as far as work done, there have been no mods. But like I said it just came back from the shop for its 15,000 mile service where they did sync the throttle bodies, but it had this problem before the 15,000 mile service. Once or twice I ran it for with no pipes while I was painting them. Someone said this could do no harm. Maybe I caused something then?
Any advice on what the next step to take would be?
Interesting, I never saw a set up like yours. Custom? Wing it repair? Dunno.
Running with no pipes did not cause the problem. Have you been back to the shop who did the service? Were they aware of the problem before doing the service? Does the bike run smoothly when cruising? Accelerating?
IMO, your next step should be a trip back to the shop.
Running with no pipes did not cause the problem.
Quote from: howie on February 03, 2012, 07:32:02 AM
Interesting, I never saw a set up like yours. Custom? Wing it repair? Dunno.
..............
My 2007 has the same non-windowed inspection cover. (along with a different main crank bearing)
Quote from: howie on February 03, 2012, 07:32:02 AM
Interesting, I never saw a set up like yours. Custom? Wing it repair? Dunno.
Running with no pipes did not cause the problem. Have you been back to the shop who did the service? Were they aware of the problem before doing the service? Does the bike run smoothly when cruising? Accelerating?
IMO, your next step should be a trip back to the shop.
Running with no pipes did not cause the problem.
I do not believe anything on the bike is custom. I bought it last year about 5,000 miles ago and the guy said he left it stock. What is non standard about it that makes you say that?
I have actually been back to the shop, they listened to it and were not able to tell me what the sound was. I did mention the problem before the main service they did, but there were other problems that they were focused on. When I got it back, I asked the mechanic who worked on it if he noticed the noise (it was happening but less frequently back then). He said he didn't notice it on his test drive, which I find extremely hard to believe (or he is a moron). The bike runs smoothly when cruising and accelerating unless I am very gently accelerating, like through a slow turn from a stop. If I just gun the throttle, it's fine.
Unfortunately, this shop is now 1,000 miles away. In addition, it was very expensive and I do not have money in my budget to be taking it back to a dealer who can't figure anything out for a long time and will cost me many hours of labor once again for nothing. These two factors make me very strongly desire to fix this myself if at all possible. That, or at least take it to a service technician knowing what to tell him the problem is.
Happens at idle and low throttle openings...
Air bleeds, maybe?
As far as custom goes, I was referring to the Allen plug in the side cover verses a sight glass. I just never saw that before. This would have nothing to do with your problem.
Air bleeds are a possibility, as Buckethead said. Throttle Position Sensor adjustment or vacuum leak are two more. It could be a valve out of adjustment too. TPS adjustment on your 695 requires a scan tool. What is your hot idle speed? If it is over 1100 RPM you could try turning the bypass screws in a 1/4 turn and see what happens. 1K miles away? A long distance to go, particularly if you are not happy with them. To your left, look at "Local Club Boards" and post up there, maybe help is closer.
Thanks for the good advice, howie and Buckethead. Just another question, what are the air bleeds? Sorry, if it isn't obvious already, I'm a very green Ducatista... [laugh]
A picture is worth a thousand words, but I don't have one. If you look at your intake manifolds you will see a brass flat head screw in each manifold. These are the air bleeds. They control the amount of air that bypasses the throttle, and also control idle speed. Turn them in 1/4 turn at a time. Keep track of what you do with them so you can set them back to where they were before. If this does not help, check for vacuum leaks. Any luck finding someone close to you?
http://www.bikeboy.org/ducati2vthrottleb.html (http://www.bikeboy.org/ducati2vthrottleb.html)
first few photos.
Quote from: sl8tr on February 01, 2012, 07:50:13 PM
Mine was one of the main bearings disintegrating. I checked the flywheel nut and then the clutch. Was looking at the oil pump when I noticed that one of the bearings was scarred and slowly flaking off.
I had been finding bits of metal in the oil screen and on the plug.
Flywheel is on the left side as your sitting on it.
I got lucky when a dmf'er sold me the engine from his totaled 695.
what did you do with the old motor?
still have it, i also have a very low mileage bottom end for the same engine. I was going to attempt to put my cylinders on that bottom end when I was offered the replacement engine.
its all gathering dust in my garage now
Quote from: brad black on February 04, 2012, 02:14:33 PM
http://www.bikeboy.org/ducati2vthrottleb.html (http://www.bikeboy.org/ducati2vthrottleb.html)
first few photos.
Brad and howie, extremely helpful! Thanks for the good stuff like that from which I am learning so much!
More importantly, I have some excellent news. I made a great discovery today, as first suggested by Buckethead and howie, I noticed that associated with each "pop" noise, the throttle body for the vertical cylinder gets jolted a little bit!
Quote from: Buckethead on February 02, 2012, 08:39:06 PM
Hmm... almost sounds like a slight backfire. Have you messed with your intake or exhaust at all?
I hope this narrows it down a little bit (or a lot). To answer your questions, I have not messed with the intakes myself at all. At the service a thousand miles ago they told me that they did sync the throttle bodies because they were out of sync. I'm not sure if they did anything else.
1. Do you think this confirms that it is a slight backfire through the vertical cylinder intake?
2. What do I do if it is indeed a backfire through the vertical cylinder intake? (howie, to answer your question earlier, my hot idle is around 1,800 rpm. Should I still try that with the bypass screws?)
A while back I had a problem with it quitting on me at stop lights. Maybe they just cranked my idle way up to 1,800. Is the simple adjusting of the bypass screws enough to safely and completely adjust my idle? What about the throttle stop screws? I think I was reading on here that for a Duc, it's not that simple as just adjusting two screws. Also, would adjusting the bypass change the mixture?
howie, I see you helped svp88 back in April to diagnose a similar problem. Damn, you're good... [bow_down]
I'm gonna take a guess and say that 1,800 rpm is a bit high for an idle. I'm used to seeing more around 1,200.
Depending on WHY it was dying at stoplights, I could see opening the air bleeds solving that problem but at the cost of making your bike run lean at idle and low throttle openings. It wouldn't have much effect on cruising performance because the amount of air getting by the throttle at that point would be waaaaaaay more than the amount getting past the idle air circuit. At (and just above) idle, the difference would probably be enough to seriously lean out your air/fuel ratio.
I'd wager if you screwed both of your air bleeds all the way in, then backed them out equally and slowly until your idle was at 12-1300, your problem would likely go away.
I'm sure someone will chime in if I'm completely off base.
read the whole report i linked.
Quote from: brad black on February 05, 2012, 02:58:43 AM
read the whole report i linked.
To quote your report, "But both the 695 (afaik) and 800 have a linear TPS, so this setting procedure is irrelevant for them anyway."
This is a 695 here.
Quote from: Buckethead on February 05, 2012, 02:36:51 AM
I'm gonna take a guess and say that 1,800 rpm is a bit high for an idle. I'm used to seeing more around 1,200.
Depending on WHY it was dying at stoplights, I could see opening the air bleeds solving that problem but at the cost of making your bike run lean at idle and low throttle openings. It wouldn't have much effect on cruising performance because the amount of air getting by the throttle at that point would be waaaaaaay more than the amount getting past the idle air circuit. At (and just above) idle, the difference would probably be enough to seriously lean out your air/fuel ratio.
I'd wager if you screwed both of your air bleeds all the way in, then backed them out equally and slowly until your idle was at 12-1300, your problem would likely go away.
I'm sure someone will chime in if I'm completely off base.
1800 RPM is way to high. It sounds like the shop couldn't solve the problem and masked the problem by bumping up the RPM. Turning in the air bleeds until the idle speed is within spec is, if you can achieve this is a start. If this works, at least the bike might be in a more rideable condition. I would want to know the vales are within spec, compression is good, throttle stop screw is set properly and TPS is set. If you cannot get the idle down below 1300 RPM with the bypass I would suspect either a big vacuum leak or the throttle screw that is not supposed to be used to set idle speed was used. Not having a 695 manual I do not know the spec for the throttle stop screw setting (if one exists) but just barely opened should work. This is best done with the throttle cable disconnected. Once the throttle screw is touched TPS must be reset. If TPS is off the ECU does not have an accurate reference of throttle opening. As said before, this requires a scan tool or software. VDSTS software can be purchased from our sponsor http://wwww.ca-cycleworks.com (http://wwww.ca-cycleworks.com)
Have you had any luck finding a closer qualified shop or local DMF member to help you out? IMO, experience with engines and fuel injection is a good idea.
Quote from: howie on February 05, 2012, 06:23:06 PM
Have you had any luck finding a closer qualified shop or local DMF member to help you out? IMO, experience with engines and fuel injection is a good idea.
I've posted in the Dallas local club board soliciting help from anyone with experience, so hopefully I can find someone to help me out. I agree, fuel system and throttle body stuff is not something I'm about to delve into on my own with no experience. If nothing else there seems to be a reputable shop in Dallas, two hours away.
By the way, the mechanic who did my valves provided me with the specs and they are all good.
Speaking of the 695 service manual, where's the best place to get one of these? I definitely want one. Couldn't find one from the fine folks at ca cycleworks.
Quote from: C11Gidasi on February 05, 2012, 05:32:07 PM
To quote your report, "But both the 695 (afaik) and 800 have a linear TPS, so this setting procedure is irrelevant for them anyway."
This is a 695 here.
about half way down it says "Back to the procedure:" from there down pretty much is the info for setting them up.
Quote from: C11Gidasi on February 05, 2012, 09:07:55 PM
I've posted in the Dallas local club board soliciting help from anyone with experience, so hopefully I can find someone to help me out. I agree, fuel system and throttle body stuff is not something I'm about to delve into on my own with no experience. If nothing else there seems to be a reputable shop in Dallas, two hours away.
What about these folks? http://www.advancedmotorsports.com (http://www.advancedmotorsports.com) AFAIK, a good reputation.
By the way, the mechanic who did my valves provided me with the specs and they are all good.
Speaking of the 695 service manual, where's the best place to get one of these? I definitely want one. Couldn't find one from the fine folks at ca cycleworks.
I just checked these folk, http://www.duc.nu/manuals/?model=monster&type=workshop (http://www.duc.nu/manuals/?model=monster&type=workshop) No cigar, but maybe in the future. The dealer (expect to pay a lot of money. Ah, From our board member He Man http://www.kuixihe.com/Downloads/How%20to%20repair%20and%20maintain%20Ducati%20695.pdf (http://www.kuixihe.com/Downloads/How%20to%20repair%20and%20maintain%20Ducati%20695.pdf)
I've been thinking, since you had the problem before the service, bad TPS? Do not run out and get a new one. It can be checked for operation with a scan tool.
Quote from: brad black on February 06, 2012, 03:09:54 AM
about half way down it says "Back to the procedure:" from there down pretty much is the info for setting them up.
Thanks Brad! I'll get reading!
Now, can I ask a very basic and beginner question...? How does one access all these screws, ex: 6. Balance or synchronisation adjustment screw? Are there special tools for the job? Do I have to remove the throttle body all together? (I do not have the bike in front of me and haven't looked to see if I can easily access each one without removing things to get behind stuff... but some look hard to get to)
Quote from: howie on February 06, 2012, 03:47:02 AM
I've been thinking, since you had the problem before the service, bad TPS? Do not run out and get a new one. It can be checked for operation with a scan tool.
Thanks for the good link, howie.
So what I've gathered is that to sync the throttle bodies alone does not require a scan tool. Just vacuum equipment, maybe a TwinMax or some such device. However, actually to quote you from another thread, "If you touch the throttle screw you need the scan tool to set TPS and CO balance requires an exhaust analyzer."
Do you know how involved of a process setting TPS and CO balance is? I also know you suggested VDSTS software from ca-cycleworks...
Quote from: C11Gidasi on February 06, 2012, 10:06:36 PM
Thanks for the good link, howie.
So what I've gathered is that to sync the throttle bodies alone does not require a scan tool. Just vacuum equipment, maybe a TwinMax or some such device. However, actually to quote you from another thread, "If you touch the throttle screw you need the scan tool to set TPS and CO balance requires an exhaust analyzer." Do you know how involved of a process setting TPS and CO balance is? I also know you suggested VDSTS software from ca-cycleworks...
Yes, that is why I sent you the link for the VDSTS. The software will also help you check if the TPS and other sensors are operating properly. Normally CO balance is set at the factory as is the throttle stop screw. Turning the air bleeds in or out equally will maintain that balance. Normally TPS only needs to be set if someone touches the throttle screw or replaces the TPS. Until you know the TPS is good and base settings are good you are wandering in the dark.
Since my bike is carburated I do not own the VDSTS software, but I hear using it is not always easy. So, I guess you are not near AMS Ducati?
linear tps - http://www.bikeboy.org/ducatitps.html (http://www.bikeboy.org/ducatitps.html)
the 695 probably has the bing throttle bodies with the balance screw facing back and totally inaccessible. you need to remove the airbox to get to it.
My tech raised my S2R 800 idle by reaching in with a tool, adjusting something other than the air bleeds.
It worked and afaik didn't cause anything bad.
Any idea what he adjusted and if it shouldn't have been done that way?
(thread jack finished :-[ )
Quote from: howie on February 07, 2012, 03:25:09 AM
Since my bike is carburated I do not own the VDSTS software, but I hear using it is not always easy. So, I guess you are not near AMS Ducati?
Two hours away. Not so bad. In fact I think I'll head over there this weekend. My only hesitation (initially) was how the last dealer I went to "fixed" everything, but really I am seeing now how much he actually screwed it up. However, people seem to have a lot of trust in AMS Ducati in Dallas, in addition, I don't have all the time in the world to mess with it on my own. Also no one with experience is just jumping up eager to help me in my area... They are going to service my tank under the Monster Class Action thing I got in the mail regarding expanding tanks with Ethanol fuel, so I might as well have them see what they can do about my jacked up throttle bodies causing this backfire problem...
By the way, I took a look today, and here's what I can tell you. I agree that it is most likely a Bing throttle body. I didn't go through the process of removing the airbox, and so I didn't see everything. But what I did see told me, 1. The TPS was definitely not changed (which makes sense because this bike should have a linear TPS and therefore nothing can be adjusted with its screws anyway.). 2. The bleeds were definitely changed. Sorry, but that's all I could tell from my very preliminary look.
PS, what I was asking, I suppose, is how long does it take and how much of an expert to you need to be to do those two things (setting TPS and CO balance). I'm guessing by your answer that if I were to purchase the software, full instructions would be included on what exactly I have to do. Keep in mind I am a rather shiny new beginner.
Quote from: stopintime on February 07, 2012, 02:43:58 PM
My tech raised my S2R 800 idle by reaching in with a tool, adjusting something other than the air bleeds.
It worked and afaik didn't cause anything bad.
Any idea what he adjusted and if it shouldn't have been done that way?
(thread jack finished :-[ )
stopintime, I am NO expert by any means, but what I can tell you just from reading Bike Boy's article is that it could have been the throttle stop screw if there was "reaching in" involved. This, from everything I have gathered so far, is not the proper way to adjust the idle...
Does anyone know why the Ducati maintenance manual I have fails to specify a procedure for syncing the throttle bodies?
if the idle stop has been adjusted then next time a tps reset is done the value will be wrong. if the rh stop has been adjusted you can just wind it out again, which is all you can get to easily. the lh stop is almost inaccessible without pulling it apart, believe me, i've tried to get to it.
including pulling the airbox to do the balance it would take an hour or so. don't count on instructions, don't recall seeing any.
Quote from: brad black on February 10, 2012, 02:28:03 AM
if the idle stop has been adjusted then next time a tps reset is done the value will be wrong. if the rh stop has been adjusted you can just wind it out again, which is all you can get to easily. the lh stop is almost inaccessible without pulling it apart, believe me, i've tried to get to it.
including pulling the airbox to do the balance it would take an hour or so. don't count on instructions, don't recall seeing any.
This is what I had feared. Since today is Friday, I'm going to remove the airbox to get in there and take a look. What I am assuming is that this is a Bing throttle body and therefore no LH throttle stop screw. Unfortunately, this means it has to be balanced before I go any further (since the TPS is monitoring the LH valve â€" closed position controlled by the RH throttle stop screw by way of the balancing screw). Are you in concurrence with all this? Thanks tremendously for your help.
Question 1: can balancing be done with all the other settings screwed up? It seems like it must be since having a good balance is a starting point (even before TPS reset).
Question 2: In the absence of instructions, what's the basic concept? Hook up the gauge to get equal and balanced suction out of both throttle bodies at idle and 4-6,000 rpm by adjusting the balance screw? Thanks again.
Quote from: C11Gidasi on February 10, 2012, 06:43:52 AM
Question 1: can balancing be done with all the other settings screwed up? It seems like it must be since having a good balance is a starting point (even before TPS reset).
Question 2: In the absence of instructions, what's the basic concept? Hook up the gauge to get equal and balanced suction out of both throttle bodies at idle and 4-6,000 rpm by adjusting the balance screw? Thanks again.
Does anybody know the answer to this? I really need to know before I can move forward.
Also, just an update: upon inspection, the throttle body is indeed a Bing throttle body, and both the balance screw and the throttle stop screw have been adjusted in the past. Furthermore, the bike idles at nearly 1,800 rpm with both bleed screws closed all the way.
Yes, you can balance the bike but all you can possibly achieve is a smoother running bike that idles way to high. CO balance with the bypass screws at high speed is pointless. The balance screws allow air to bypass the throttle, thus the name. As RPM goes up the percentage of air the screws allow to bypass the throttle becomes insignificant as compared to the air allowed to enter through the throttles. Think of pissing into a glass half full of water. Quite significant! Now piss in a pool half full of water. Not very significant. Unless you get caught, but that is a different story. I wouldn't be surprised if those screws were made difficult to access so people wouldn't make the beast with two backs with them.
Quote from: howie on February 14, 2012, 05:15:21 AM
Yes, you can balance the bike but all you can possibly achieve is a smoother running bike that idles way to high. CO balance with the bypass screws at high speed is pointless. The balance screws allow air to bypass the throttle, thus the name. As RPM goes up the percentage of air the screws allow to bypass the throttle becomes insignificant as compared to the air allowed to enter through the throttles. Think of pissing into a glass half full of water. Quite significant! Now piss in a pool half full of water. Not very significant. Unless you get caught, but that is a different story. I wouldn't be surprised if those screws were made difficult to access so people wouldn't make the beast with two backs with them.
But after I perform a balance, I should at least be able to get the idle down and properly reset the TPS, right?
If your air bleeds are already screwed in either your throttles are opened too much or you have a vacuum leak affecting both cylinders. Balance will not reduce that idle speed.
Yes, I understand that. But with this (Bing) throttle body, since there are no separate LH and RH throttle stop screws, it's important to know it's balanced before I can mess with any other settings, especially setting the TPS, right?
In your case, difficult to say since I don't know what has been messed with. This is what I would do:
Set the throttle stop screw, worry about the TPS side. Seat the air bleeds and turn them out about 1/4 turn.
If the throttle on either throttle touches the bore, then compensate with the synch screw, otherwise leave alone.
Set TPS.
Start bike and warm up. Use fast idle as needed.
Synch throttle bodies at, oh maybe 2K RPM.
Adjust to 11-1300 RPM turning air bleeds in or out equally.
If you have an exhaust analyzer, set Co trim at 4-6% CO. There are bongs with hex head plugs in the headers for checking CO.
Using the air bleeds, balance CO between cylinders. No exhaust analyzer, skip these two steps
Reset idle speed if needed.
Other suggestions? Paging Brad Black!
Good advice. Thanks.
Just out of curiosity, before I go through all the trouble of this, what makes you think the backfire is caused by the throttle bodies? With my fairly limited knowledge of engines, I would think such a thing is caused by timing.
At the last service I had, the dealer did say he synched the throttle bodies. (the reason I would still make all these adjustments in lieu of that is because obviously he did something wrong if it's idling at 1800 RPM.)
Quote from: C11Gidasi on February 17, 2012, 07:30:20 AM
Good advice. Thanks.
Just out of curiosity, before I go through all the trouble of this, what makes you think the backfire is caused by the throttle bodies? With my fairly limited knowledge of engines, I would think such a thing is caused by timing.
At the last service I had, the dealer did say he synched the throttle bodies. (the reason I would still make all these adjustments in lieu of that is because obviously he did something wrong if it's idling at 1800 RPM.)
Timing on your bike will not change unless someone does some serious work or your computer goes bonkers. Basic fuel mixture input into the computer is RPM and throttle opening. Mixture is then further corrected by temperature sensors and, when in closed loop, the O
2 sensor. If TPS is off the computer does not know where the throttle is, this can affect both mixture and timing.
I see. Thanks. And out of curiosity, how does one check for a vacuum leak?
not that i've ever looked, but are you sure there's no lh throttle stop screw?
Quote from: brad black on February 20, 2012, 02:12:28 AM
not that i've ever looked, but are you sure there's no lh throttle stop screw?
As far as I could tell, but I couldn't get the airbox all the way off. For the most part, I just took your word for it from your article...
oh. what did i say?
found it. so i did say that.
in that case, you'd do a linear tps baselining procedure - http://www.bikeboy.org/ducatitps.html (http://www.bikeboy.org/ducatitps.html) - using the rh stop and noting whatever the reset vaule is. then you'd set the balance as required, then adjust the rh stop to return the throttle opening to the reset value as read via the diagnostic tool.
if the balance is adjusted again later and the tps via the diagnostics no longer read the reset value, then the rh stop would again need to be adjusted to bring the throttle opening setting back to the reset value. doing another reset instead would upset the throttle/tps relationship.
I just thought those who were following this issue way back when might
be interested in an update.
As a recap, if I could, I would change the title of this thread to
"Backfire Through Intake - Vertical Cylinder" since that's what the
real problem is here.
Basically since the last post, the bike has been in the shop being
worked on. They tore apart the engine and found that the valve guides
were worn. Since this shouldn't be the case (2007 M695 with 14,000
miles), they got Ducati to give me free valve guides. I ended up
paying for 10 hours of labor for the work they did installing them and
adjusting everything.
When I fired the bike up, I was pleased to find that it ran 100 times
better. It started right up and there was less searching for idle. The
idle was smooth, consistent, and at the right RPM. I took it around
the block a few times and it ran well.
To my dismay, after riding it home, once the engine was warmed up (265
degrees for this bike), pop!, pop!, there was the mysterious backfire
and associated jerk again. It happens at lower RMP, usually while
accelerating and carefully trying to work the throttle and clutch at
the same time. Though it has happened when cruising steady at 4,000
RPM, parking lots are particularly embarrassing. It's such a shame that such a good looking bike sounds so sickly. I've even had people make that very comment to me!
After all that time and money spent, I am not very happy. I most definitely do feel better about Ducati in general because of their good will in providing me new valve guides free of cost, but I'm just about fed up with this bike after all the hell I've gone through tryin to get it to run right.
I have one other hunch, but I wanted to hear the opinions of the forum first on (1) the cause and (2) on what to do next. Thanks!
I just checked it for vacuum leak. Found no evidence of any. Still looking for ideas...
Crickets... Crickets...
I dunno about your valve guide issue. Honestly, I think you may have been taken advantage of. Of course, I am not there, didn't see your valve guides, etc. but I have a few alarm bells going off. Sounds horrible to suggest (and don't take offense), but your new dealer may have taken one look at you and saw a walking atm they could pull some unnecessary shop time out of. Also, sounds like your previous dealers did this to a lesser extent"...throttle bodies?....synched no problem, everything is good."
So you weren't successful synching/balancing your throttle bodies yourself? Did you ask the current shop to do so while they were replacing those "worn" valve guides? (By the way, worn valve guides would cause you to use some oil, maybe puff a little blue smoke, but not cause backfire through the intake....hence my first paragraph)
March right back there and demand they synch, balance, set CO trim and TPS. If you paid for 10hrs of labor, you are probably into them $1000. If you were eating at a restaurant and they gave you a plate of oysters on the house, but charged you for the diesel the boat used to get out to the oyster beds, the rubber boots they used to walk through the mud with, and the pack of Marlboro's they guy smoked as he dug them, you would be pissed right? This is essentially the little scenario the shop has placed you in.
I know I don't have any right to call this shop out, but that is my take on your situation. You shouldn't pay another dime, and they should bend over backwards to get your balancing issue sorted!
Thanks for the reply! So are you saying its almost definitely a simple throttle body / tuning issue?
I must say that it was running like crap (hunting idle, quitting at idle, inconsistent rpm (ranging from 800 to 4,000) with the fast idle lever selected to max and the throttle itself left untouched) when I brought it to them and all of these issues were fixed when I picked it up. They did say that after the valve guides were replaced and the engine was put back together they performed a full tune. Btw, you are correct. It was 10 hours at $100 an hour coming out to exactly $1,000 even. But that's just for the last service done.
Good to hear they included a service/tune/oil change? as well. YES, this is definitely throttle body synch/balance issue. Take it back to the shop, explain/show the issue to the service writer/mechanic. It should've been corrected during the service, so they should "make it right" without you having to pay for this again. Use your discretion, if they take extra time to accommodate your concerns and do a good job, offer to reimburse them (if they are not charging you for this followup).
Just to throw a little more doubt into the mix. Ducatis are notorious for coming from the factory fueled very lean to pass emissions standards. Your bike might be on the lean side of things even with the throttle bodies correctly setup. Most people correct this by adding a power commander (or other tuning module), reflashing their ecu to add more fuel, particularly in the low-mid throttle range. This accompanied with an experienced tech on a dyno, will give the "optimal" fuel map for your motorcycle. My tuner charges $100 for custom map/dyno tune. The fueling modules mentioned above range from $200-$1000 depending on what you choose and how much control you want of the fuel mapping process.
Note: A good shop/mechanic should be able to correct this issue using the stock parts without you having to spend money on the aftermarket accessories.
Good luck, and let us know when you sort it out.
Quote from: BastrdHK on July 17, 2012, 02:47:45 AM
Good to hear they included a service/tune/oil change? as well. YES, this is definitely throttle body synch/balance issue. Take it back to the shop, explain/show the issue to the service writer/mechanic. It should've been corrected during the service, so they should "make it right" without you having to pay for this again. Use your discretion, if they take extra time to accommodate your concerns and do a good job, offer to reimburse them (if they are not charging you for this followup).
Thanks for the good advice. I'll be back to the shop. Unfortunately the shop is about two hours away, so it might be a little while till I get down there. Btw, no oil change though, and for that matter, I got the bike back with the chain ridiculously loose. (This is my fault since I let it get that way, but I would still expect the shop to give everything on the bike a very quick once-over before returning it to the customer. They didn't even mention it.)
Quote from: BastrdHK on July 17, 2012, 02:47:45 AM
Just to throw a little more doubt into the mix. Ducatis are notorious for coming from the factory fueled very lean to pass emissions standards. Your bike might be on the lean side of things even with the throttle bodies correctly setup.
I don't doubt you, but I've never understood this, as I am a pilot and in aircraft piston engines it can be very dangerous to run lean as this can cause excessive engine temperatures and lead to many other serious issues (preignition, detonation, etc.)
I thought I'd throw an update out there and see if anyone might have some new insight.
Recently on a hot day, friends I was riding with reported small amounts of blue or white smoke coming from my exhaust on the highway. At a stop, when I hit the gas, a large cloud of blue / white smoke came billowing from my exhaust. I ended up topping off the oil with about 1/2 a quart. After this incident, I have had no further experience with this bike smoking (or burning oil for that matter).
However, now when cold, it starts up slightly hesitantly but when I try to accelerate, it hesitates, sometimes backfires very loudly through the intake usually twice, and then takes off (and I mean wayyy off! i.e. If I wasn't prepared for it, I could easily get thrown off the bike.).
Furthermore, the backfiring through the intake during normal riding is becoming much more frequent and random (cold/hot/accelerating/steady - it doesn't matter).
Oh and lastly, it sounds like there might be some light rattling noise coming from the engine (possibly from the head(s)?)...
I know this is difficult to diagnose over the internet, but any help is much appreciated...
They come lean from the factory to pass emissions tests. This is only during a certain rpm range (very broad stroke here, but I believe the testing is done between 0 and 5000 rpm) Not so lean to cause damage, but enough to cause low rpm hesitation. It is commonly accepted that an aftermarket ecu, ecu piggyback (like a Power Commander), ecu tricker (FatDuc manipulator), or reflash of the stock ecu to richen the A/F ratio in that rpm range makes a noticeable difference in ride quality.
That being said, it was more prevelant in the S2R generation which your 695 could be considered apart of. I don't have time too look up your ecu model (I think it is bosch or magneti marelli).
So, did you ever have the throttle bodies/tps synced? It sounds like your problem was never corrected and is simply being exaggerated by time.
Smoke issue if a one time occurrence is not a cause for concern because it could have been caused by the type of riding, weather conditions, etc. Try to be as detailed as possible about the conditions surrounding an occurrence like that. Blue smoke is oil, white is water vapor. I often get a little water vapor on cold/wet days that evaporates out of the pipes on startup. I also (b/c of a throttle body synch issue just like yours), have had unburnt fuel in the pipe that will backfire causing whisps of smoke, like a drag from a cigarette, to come out of the exhaust.
The "rattling" you hear from the engine is likely valve train noise, completely normal, but impossible to confirm over the internet as you said. You are at a point where you are LOOKING for problems, and chasing the wrong clues which are only complicating your path to a solution.
Find a competent Ducati tech that can synch your throttle bodies/tps properly!
Look forward to your progress :)