http://www.wtop.com/?nid=681&sid=2410710 (http://www.wtop.com/?nid=681&sid=2410710)
not in terms of the story itself, but in terms of the man getting cited for paying his bill in a legal form of tender, despite it being not the most optimal....I hope he pays the fine the same way.
Cited and convicted are two different things.
If it's a legal tender form of payment I don't see what is disorderly about that.
Perhaps he was being disorderly by dumping the pennies on the counter and demanding they be counted on the spot?
Quote from: alfisti on June 06, 2011, 12:49:49 PM
If it's a legal tender form of payment I don't see what is disorderly about that.
Perhaps he was being disorderly by dumping the pennies on the counter and demanding they be counted on the spot?
yeah that's the issue. he should have just gave them the jars everything was in and not dumped it. they would have either HAD to have counted it or just accepted it.
also, what alfa is that in your signature?
my guess is that the receptionist probably refused to take it as a proper form of payment then probably said something to the tune of it probably isn't the full amount to which he said what he did about them counting it on the spot....there has to be more to it than the story is leading us to believe...but still...
i've had places say they don't take pennies before... it's fricking money people!
Quote from: zooom on June 06, 2011, 01:02:05 PM
<snip>....there has to be more to it than the story is leading us to believe...
always is...
Quote from: zooom on June 06, 2011, 01:02:05 PM
my guess is that the receptionist probably refused to take it as a proper form of payment then probably said something to the tune of it probably isn't the full amount to which he said what he did about them counting it on the spot....there has to be more to it than the story is leading us to believe...but still...
That's a lot of speculating there. The matter of fact is - he was looking to make a scene and cause some trouble when he decided to show up with 2,500 pennies in the first place. Now, if he wants to show his displeasure with citation, he can always bring 14,000 pennies to the court house...
Quote from: Goat_Herder on June 06, 2011, 02:12:30 PM
That's a lot of speculating there. The matter of fact is - he was looking to make a scene and cause some trouble when he decided to show up with 2,500 pennies in the first place. Now, if he wants to show his displeasure with citation, he can always bring 14,000 pennies to the court house...
Just as long as he doesn't dump them over the judge's bench.
That shit could get ugly. (I'm thinking more for him than anything)
i would show up with the 14,000 pennies... and NOT throw them on the counter.
I think about 85 lbs should make someone's day :D
[clap] [clap] [clap] [clap] [clap]
my hero.
The issue is obviously NOT his form of payment. He likely threw a fit and caused a scene and then refused to leave or calm down when the police came.
Quote from: hbliam on June 06, 2011, 02:56:27 PM
The issue is obviously NOT his form of payment. He likely threw a fit and caused a scene and then refused to leave or calm down when the police came.
This.
Quote from: hbliam on June 06, 2011, 02:56:27 PM
The issue is obviously NOT his form of payment. He likely threw a fit and caused a scene and then refused to leave or calm down when the police came.
What do you base this on? I was trying to bail out an acquaintance many years ago and a portion of the bail was rolled change. They refused to accept it and when I argued that it was money they told me I was leaving or joining my buddy.
From Wikipedia:
United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes and dues. Foreign gold or silver coins are not legal tender for debts.
â€"31 U.S.C. § 5103
This statute means that all United States money as identified above is a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor in the U.S. There is, however, no Federal statute that requires private businesses, persons, or organizations to accept it as payment for goods and/or services.[20]
Seems to me this means a business can refuse to take $2500 in pennies. Often large bills are not accepted. I ain't no lawyer though.
Statler?
Ducatiz?
Apparently the NYC MTA isn't required to take pennies either... Imagine the logistical nightmare if the city buses had to accept pennies? Back to speculation- the hospital staff likely refused the pennies bc it was an inconvenience and bc he was doing it out of spite due do his disagreement with the bill. And it snowballed from there.
Quote from: Dan on June 06, 2011, 03:09:42 PM
What do you base this on?
Professional experience.
Quote
I was trying to bail out an acquaintance many years ago and a portion of the bail was rolled change. They refused to accept it and when I argued that it was money they told me I was leaving or joining my buddy.
And did you leave or did you refuse and end up with an arrest for disorderly conduct? [roll]
Quote from: hbliam on June 06, 2011, 06:10:13 PM
Professional experience.
And did you leave or did you refuse and end up with an arrest for disorderly conduct? [roll]
Seems like he has personal experience to the contrary.
...and why the make the beast with two backsing rolling eyes?
stirring shit officer?
Quote from: ducpainter on June 06, 2011, 06:12:43 PM
Seems like he has personal experience to the contrary.
...and why the make the beast with two backsing rolling eyes?
stirring shit officer?
My statement said the original guy was likely arrested because he threw a fit AFTER being asked to leave or calm down, not due to his form of payment.
Dan's personal experience supports my professional observations. No matter what he did. If he decided to leave it supports my theory that he was not disorderly and thus not cited nor arrested. If he did not decide to leave then his experience likely supports my observations as well....that the form of payment was not the ultimate issue, how the payee acted after his payment was refused is the issue.
The rolling eyes was a mistake. I clicked them, looked for a different, more appropriate emotion and finding none simply forgot to delete it. I was in need of a touche smiley. You don't happen to have one of those lying around do you?
Lastly, stirring shit? Seriously? Even as is, my post with the rolling eyes smiley doesn't constitute stirring shit.
Quote from: hbliam on June 06, 2011, 07:24:38 PM
My statement said the original guy was likely arrested because he threw a fit AFTER being asked to leave or calm down, not due to his form of payment.
Dan's personal experience supports my professional observations. No matter what he did. If he decided to leave it supports my theory that he was not disorderly and thus not cited nor arrested. If he did not decide to leave then his experience likely supports my observations as well....that the form of payment was not the ultimate issue, how the payee acted after his payment was refused is the issue.
The rolling eyes was a mistake. I clicked them, looked for a different, more appropriate emotion and finding none simply forgot to delete it. I was in need of a touche smiley. You don't happen to have one of those lying around do you?
Lastly, stirring shit? Seriously? Even as is, my post with the rolling eyes smiley doesn't constitute stirring shit.
An officer making a mistake?
Surely you jest.
You calculate everything.
Your use of the rolling eyes was to demean Dan, and there's no way you'll convince me otherwise.
.
Quote from: cgv on June 06, 2011, 05:01:21 PM
Apparently the NYC MTA isn't required to take pennies either... Imagine the logistical nightmare if the city buses had to accept pennies? Back to speculation- the hospital staff likely refused the pennies bc it was an inconvenience and bc he was doing it out of spite due do his disagreement with the bill. And it snowballed from there.
The buses don't take paper money, only coins or metro card. $2.25 for a bus or $5.50 for an express bus is a lot of change.
Quote from: ducpainter on June 06, 2011, 07:27:45 PM
An officer making a mistake?
Surely you jest.
You calculate everything.
Your use of the rolling eyes was to demean Dan, and there's no way you'll convince me otherwise.
I'm not going to get sucked into your baiting.
Sometimes you can be Dead Wrong...and you will get nailed to the cross for it
Sometimes you can be Dead Right and you will still get nailed to the cross for it
right or wrong you're still dead
there's a lot to be said for knowing your audience
when you are performing in the theater of human behavior
Quote from: hbliam on June 06, 2011, 06:10:13 PM
Professional experience.
And did you leave or did you refuse and end up with an arrest for disorderly conduct? [roll]
I left. My point is that I was threatened with arrest for attempting something perfectly legal. The refusal to allow me to was the escalating factor. Disorderly conduct is a catch-all for whatever the authority wants it to be, even when they are wrong.
Quote from: Dan on June 07, 2011, 01:38:32 AM
I left. My point is that I was threatened with arrest for attempting something perfectly legal. The refusal to allow me to was the escalating factor. Disorderly conduct is a catch-all for whatever the authority wants it to be, even when they are wrong.
ahhhh but we now have the new improved Disorderly catch-all.....declare "Homeland Security" and you can make folks disappear altogether :(
see prior cautionary on being "dead right"
Quote from: Dan on June 07, 2011, 01:38:32 AM
I left. My point is that I was threatened with arrest for attempting something perfectly legal. The refusal to allow me to was the escalating factor. Disorderly conduct is a catch-all for whatever the authority wants it to be, even when they are wrong.
I answered this in my PM I think.
My point is, you would not have gone to jail for your payment method, you have gone for refusing to leave or causing a problem in their lobby.
Was the cop that told you he wouldn't take change wrong? Maybe. He obviously made a negative impression. But...maybe they don't take change and don't have the capacity to. We don't take anything but cash and it has to be exact, we don't make change. We don't take checks or credit cards either. I doubt I could fit rolled quarters in the cash box we use but I'd probably make do and drop it in the watch commanders safe to avoid the argument.
And like I told you, if you insisted on giving me a check and I explained that I couldn't,
there would come a point in time if you were causing a problem, (screaming, yelling, disrupting other business, damaging property) that you would either leave my lobby and work on alternate methods of payment or be escorted to a cell. My point in time sounds like it would be far longer then the guy you spoke to. If you wanted to sit there in silent protest? Have at it. We have a bench, we are 24 hours, and you wouldn't be disturbing anyone.
Checks and credit cards are not legal tender and there is nothing that says you have to accept them. Cash is and the convenience of handling the cash shouldn't be the deciding factor. If you don't have a box big enough to hold the money, get a bigger box. The guy showed up with cash to pay his bill. Everything after that is secondary.
Quote from: Dan on June 07, 2011, 02:23:30 AM
Checks and credit cards are not legal tender and there is nothing that says you have to accept them. Cash is and the convenience of handling the cash shouldn't be the deciding factor. If you don't have a box big enough to hold the money, get a bigger box.
There is more to it then that for us. It's a security, handling, documenting, tracking thing. You know, all the extra paperwork we have to do to prove we aren't stealing.
Other then that, yes, cash and forms of cash can be refused. Go to McDonalds and try to pay with $100 bill.
http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Currency/Pages/legal-tender.aspx (http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Currency/Pages/legal-tender.aspx)
Legal Tender Status
I thought that United States currency was legal tender for all debts. Some businesses or governmental agencies say that they will only accept checks, money orders or credit cards as payment, and others will only accept currency notes in denominations of $20 or smaller. Isn't this illegal?
The pertinent portion of law that applies to your question is the Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," which states: "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues."
This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency (usually notes above $20) as a matter of policy.
Quote from: hbliam on June 07, 2011, 02:40:30 AM
There is more to it then that for us. It's a security, handling, documenting, tracking thing. You know, all the extra paperwork we have to do to prove we aren't stealing.
Other then that, yes, cash and forms of cash can be refused. Go to McDonalds and try to pay with $100 bill.
http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Currency/Pages/legal-tender.aspx (http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Currency/Pages/legal-tender.aspx)
Legal Tender Status
I thought that United States currency was legal tender for all debts. Some businesses or governmental agencies say that they will only accept checks, money orders or credit cards as payment, and others will only accept currency notes in denominations of $20 or smaller. Isn't this illegal?
The pertinent portion of law that applies to your question is the Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," which states: "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues."
This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency (usually notes above $20) as a matter of policy.
I'd argue that a government agency (PD) doesn't fall into those categories. I'd also argue that unless the hospital in the original story was private, it also doesn't fall into those categories. The Treasury has it on paper currency that it is "legal tender for
all debts public and private"
.