Ducati Monster Forum

I still have problems starting the monsta because of the high compression, I have put on heavier wires to the starter and earth but its only marginally better.
So, now I'm thinking of making a 4 pole starter motor.
Anyone done this?  Do I have to use 2 starters to make one or is there parts available for them.
I need brushes and the brush retainers and springs...
Anyone got a buggered starter they dont want?

Looked at that & even bought 4pole brushes.
But, it is quite complicated to make them fit.

You have probaby checked this out, but maybe there is a way of altering the starter gearing. I've heard the starter gearing on the older Monsters isn't the best ratio. Or maybe consulting an auto elec who can rebuild starters to beef up the cranking capacity. I take it that you have the headlight on/off switch too. That has made a big difference with the two high comp bikes I have owned. I bet you have probably done all these things already.

With that size bore and the same combustion chamber you must be up around at least 12.1 in compression. I bet it's retarded ignition and 98 fuel always.

thanks fella's
G.M...  did you get the 4 pole brush plate, or just the brushes? was it out of a similar starter that you tried to make fit?

Koko..  nah, havn't heard about the gearing. Is there another model that has differnt ratio's that'll fit?
I've long time thought about getting a switch for the headlight, I guess that'd be an easy thing to do for now...

I've heard that BMW make a 4 pole starter that is easy to fit with a bit of machining (I'll have to do more research on that one)
I'll let ya's know if I find something..

I've heard rumors that the 1100 motors have different starter gears.
Dunno if that stuff will fit your motor.  :-\

One of my customers has an M1000 with a big bore/ hi comp kit, IIRC it's a 1079cc, and it's got a light flywheel.
It's always been a bear to start.
He recently installed a Shorai LFX18 battery, said it was better.

I've just installed one in my S4, but it's not much of a test as it's not a hard starter....

Best of all, the LFX18 I've got is 1.1 kg.  [beer]
It's crazy to hold in your hand, you swear they left the goods out.  [laugh]

Whole plate.
Other make, some japcrap one.

Close to fit but would require lotsa fiddling/machining.

will it fry if you up the voltage on the starter motor?

maybe you could run a 2nd battery. when you hit the starter switch it powers a relay and gives the starter extra juice.

id inmagine running that thing at 18 or even 24v would be killer!

Yes, you wouldn't even need the engine to start until second or third gear...

I have an old 6 Volt GMC truck that I run a 12V battery in and the 6V starter works great, no problem so far and it's been starting on 12V for years.

Bob

hmm  I think I should buy this and have a play....
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Ducati-starter-motor-brush-kit-/230570048093?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item35af0bba5d (http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Ducati-starter-motor-brush-kit-/230570048093?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item35af0bba5d)

(http://i.ebayimg.com/18/!B43SEsQ!Wk~$(KGrHqEOKiUEyUkMKUwhBMreS6v44!~~_12.JPG)

major win today...   8)

(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q41/monsta904/brush-plate.jpg)

part of the reason I wanted to go down the track of making a 4 pole starter was because we had a bloke at work that made one for r&d type stuff.
Anyhow, he left a while ago and I thought all the bits went when that side of the business was sold.
I rang him, and he steered me to locate the above goodies!
On the right is a standard brush plate, (one brush is still in the starter housing)
the plastic looking thingy in the middle front is a 3D print of a model that was made for the 4 pole brush plate.
The others are laser cut plates for making the said plate   ;D
so.... I'm thinking I may just need the above ebay brush plate for the spare bits and cobble it together!!
still a bit of trickery to be done, but this'll make life a lot easier...  [drink] 

Hey that's cool.  How are you proposing connecting the other +ve brush up?  Is there space in the back of the starter assembly wo run a (fairly thick) wire around the back, or are you going to put a second terminal on?

I reckon theres room to run a wire around the back, behind the brush retainer and spring. It'll be tight, but doable.

I'm thinking the hard bit will be fixing the brush retainer and springs, to the backing plate.
I dont think regular rivets will do?, I may have to make them and a tool to install...


Suzy...  your a good person to ask...   ;D
the wire coming off the +ve has very fine strands that are wound... whats that called? any recommendations? do I just get from an auto lecky?   [thumbsup]

This is the wire coming off the brush?  When you buy brushes, they usually have a connecting wire already hard soldered in.  It's a bundle of very fine wires to make sure it's really flexible.  An automotive electrician would be able to help.

yeah, the wire from the brush...
I'll need to extend the positive to go around to the other side of the plate.

Just ordered 2 brush plates to rob parts off, I already have a spare starter. Just need to get a bit of wire to extend the positive and then work out how I'll rivet the bits to the laser cut plate that I have...

anyone got any suggestions for the rivets?

My $0.02. 

1) The wire connected to the brush is fine and flexible because the brush has to move as it wears (by the force of the little (weak) spring).  The wire between the two holders can be heavy and stiff.  An semi circle of copper foil would work great for clearance (wrap w/ a pc of heatshrink to prevent any shorts)

2) As for the rivets.  Well, use rivets.  :)  Look on youtube for hundreds of videos on how aircraft type rivets are driven.  You need a bucking bar (or just a hunk of steel or the face of a big hammer) and a mandrel for an air chisel.  Or just grind a small hollow in a center punch, use a vise top as the bucking bar, and pound away w/ a large hammer.  I've never personally driven a rivet like that but it looks easy as heck.

thanks smdub
good idea in point 1, for the wire to be made from a copper strip... I may just do that!  [thumbsup]   I looked around to buy the wire yesterday with no joy. so this is a timely reply...


as for the rivets...  thats pretty much waht I had planned, tho, I'll have to wait till I've got the bits, because I dont think there'll be room to get a punch or seat on one side of the plate. And blind rivets will be too big??

anyhow, just gotta wait for the brush plates to arrive to suss it properly...

I don't see why you can't get to the back, looks doable from here but maybe Im missing something.  Usually the negative pole holders are riveted directly to the base plate where the motor frame provides ground.  The positive holders should be riveted to an insulator and then that is riveted to the base plate w/ clearance for the first set of rivets so they wont short out to the plate.

You mention pop/blind rivets.  Since they are under nearly zero force, you could install a pop rivet, carefully cut much of the end off w/ a grinding wheel, and carefully peen over the remainder.  Would probably be easier to both source and peen than solid rivets.

Or on a completely different tact, how about cutting two factory (still assembled) plates in half and welding them back together as one?  You already have the special base plates made up but this approach might be more practical for someone starting from scratch.

Bits arrived (2 brush plates) and I made a bit of progress yesterday...
I've used blind rivots as suggested by smdub, but what I did was cut them a bit shorter and remove the 'pin' from up the guts of it and install and pein over.
Looks a bit agricultural, but theres plenty of clearance around the springs. I also had to drill some holes in the plate and make some spacers to raise the height of the negative holder.
all in all, I'm fairly happy how it came out...

(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q41/monsta904/CIMG1906.jpg)

(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q41/monsta904/CIMG1911.jpg)

Now I have to work out how to get the wiring around and joined up..
It looks like the wire is fused onto the positive contact?? I guess i can just try an solder a wire to this??  any suggestion?

(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q41/monsta904/CIMG1914.jpg)

job done...
got it all together, connected power and Spins up ok.
I'd like to work out if, and how much extra torque it puts out, but I reckon I'll just have to put it on the engine and just trial it...
might take a while to fit because I've got a few other thing on me plate at the moment.

(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q41/monsta904/starter1.jpg)

(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q41/monsta904/starter.jpg)

Hi monsta, any updates on this? Did you try the 4 pole on your starter?

 [thumbsup] [thumbsup]

Any update Monsta?

I can't believe it's already been a year. Time flies when your 25. Har har made a joke

update!  has it really been that long!  [laugh]

Got the starter in a couple of months ago!
Definately works better! rarely have that stutter where you have to let go of the starter button and try again, but that does still happen...
Still not perfect, but better...

I do have a problem tho, where sometimes it wont start and I have to put it in gear and rock the bike to get the engine in a different position?? then it'll start up ok.

I've given Koko64 a laser cut plate and he's also gunna have one made up. We'll have to wait for him to see if he gets the same results....

 [drink]  [beer]

Thanks Monsta.
It's with my sparky who is rebuilding Lukes starter for his 944.
He was very impressed with the plate. Hope to get it back this week.

I wonder if you have a sprague gear bearing issue.

I'd be interested in the 4-pole plate if you have a spare one laying around.

I have a used oem starter on the way from a forum member. The Superlight starter is buggered.  May order an Electrex starter for Luke and if its output isnt enough we will have to decide which one to convert to 4 pole.  Will order brush kits from Electrex this week. Anyone used their starter motors?

Update.
Ordered brush kits from Electrex. They actually make 4 pole brush plates, but not it seems for Ducati. Will see if my sparky can modify the plate to fit the oem Denso starter. If not we can remove the parts to put on the monsta plate.
Thanks to akmnstr for selling me the starter for a great price and to monsta for his technical guidance.

Will see how we go.

well...  it failed on me!  :(

was working fine, but it was starting to not engage when I pressed the start button. I'd have to put the bike in gear and rock it and then the starter would work.

So I pulled it out and had a look. Seems to be a lot of wear on the brushes and I'm guessing they were sticking in the brush holders.

Anyhow, I put another old starter in that I had lying around.
I also fitted an anti gravity lithium battery... All problems are gone! :) no hesitation whatsoever!

I'll have another crack at the 4 pole starter when I get a chance, but it'll be on the 'it can wait' list because there's no great urgency for it now...

(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q41/monsta904/AntiGravity_zpsf4659460.jpg) (http://s133.photobucket.com/user/monsta904/media/AntiGravity_zpsf4659460.jpg.html)

(http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q41/monsta904/AntiGravity2_zpsca6b1dc7.jpg) (http://s133.photobucket.com/user/monsta904/media/AntiGravity2_zpsca6b1dc7.jpg.html)