Forgive this question but I've:
* Searched the Forum
* Looked at the Factory Service Manual
* Looked at the Factory Parts Manual
and none of those sources answered this seemingly VERY VERY VERY SIMPLE QUESTION
WHICH PLUG ON THE UNDERSIDE OF THE CRANKCASE IS THE OIL DRAIN PLUG ON A 2011 M696?
I ask because I've identified the 14mm hex bit plug for the Oil Screen on the lower side of the crankcase.
and right below that is a small hex bit plug which I don't believe is it (I believe that is labelled as a "cap" in the parts manual).
Then at the CENTER of the underside - right by what looks like the crankcase split line and facing straight downward is a small hex bit plug with a copper/brass crushwasher that I SUSPECT is it.
However, it's a lot smaller than the parts book or the photo in the service manual would lead me to believe it should be. And when I bought the filter they put a crush washer in the box which does NOT meet the size of ANY of the plugs I see?
Also, to add to my dilemma, almost all the way to the other side (left side) of the underside of the crankcsase is yet another small hex bit plug with an aluminum crush washer which is threaded to an ANGLED BOSS (not straight up-down, but titled). I DON'T think that is it but I'm not sure.
This image from the factory manual makes it look like it is threaded straight into a boss on the underside of the crankcase, but NEAR AN EDGE?
Did they take the photo in the factory manual with the crankcase split? Otherwise there's no plug that looks it on this model?
UPDATE - ANSWER BELOW
I'll add that the hex bit plug that I describe in my first post of this thread APPEARS to be in about the same relative position as the drain plug in this video, but it does look to be smaller (I wonder if the just changed the bore and plug size and that is what is throwing me off).
Quote from: Spck31 on June 13, 2010, 05:45:39 AM
Ducatitech.com "HowTo" Ducati Oil Change (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqiOrzM4nvA#lq-lq2-hq-vhq)
this guy shows the location and process pretty definitively:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUZEL6OLK8s
GREAT VIDEO reference, HOWEVER
Our 2011 M696 is different.
Not very, but the drain plug (seems to be in a SLIGHTLY different location) and is DEFINITELY smaller.
I'll take a pic and some measurements and report back.
I can see differences in the engine cases.
For instance my oil filter is fully exposed, I.e. it's not in a bore like the one in the video.
What I believe is the drain plug needs a 5mm hex bit, not a 10mm bit.
There is nothing under there that a 10mm bit would fit.
Kev,
I ran into the same issue when doing my oil change. My bike did not match up to the video 100% either as it is a 2010 696. The drain plug is the center one with the copper/brass washer. There should be a magnet on the end as well. Did you get your filter at FBF? They gave me a larger crush washer with the filter that seems to fit nothing. [thumbsdown] Let me know how you make out.
-Dan
Quote from: mi_scusi on June 30, 2011, 05:49:49 PM
Kev,
I ran into the same issue when doing my oil change. My bike did not match up to the video 100% either as it is a 2010 696. The drain plug is the center one with the copper/brass washer. There should be a magnet on the end as well. Did you get your filter at FBF? They gave me a larger crush washer with the filter that seems to fit nothing. [thumbsdown] Let me know how you make out.
-Dan
The large crush washer fits the plug for the screen unless they changed that too.
yea the first time on my m796 the crush washer they gave me, was too small
and its the center plug, the newer desmodue motors use a smaller drain plug
if you are going to a ducati dealership, the tech's can match something up, i keep an old washer around just because its easier to bring something in to match up
Dan - YUP - FBF - I'll let them know later this week that they're making ASSumptions that some of the newer models are the same as the older ones.
So here's my report and tips for the next guy (I'll post pics in a minute):
Turns out they changed the motor cases in 2010 or 2011 on these models.
The drain plug is still in the underside center of the motor, but it's a 5mm now and not a 10mm. There are also a number of other plugs under there too to add to the confusion.
The crush washer FBF gave me is therefore the wrong size (it's for the old 10mm bit plug), and they DIDN'T think to sell me one for the filter screen as that one is larger (and I didn't know it existed the day we bought the bike). I'm glad I pulled the screen as there were some bits of paint/plastic on it as well as a few chunks of metal.
Now WHAT THE @$%@$^^* IS UP WITH THE GAWD-DAMNED CHAIN ADJUSTMENT PROCEDURE?
Here's what the factory manual says:
QuoteAdjusting the chain tension
Tensioning the drive chain.
Turn the rear wheel slowly to find the position at which the chain is at its most taut.
With the motorcycle on its sidestand, press with a finger in the centre of the bottom run of the chain and measure the distance between the centres of chain link pins and the aluminium swingarm. The distance should be within 46 to 48 mm.
To adjust the tension, proceed as follows.
Loosen the axle nuts (1).
Turn the chain tension adjuster screws (2) on both sides of the swingarm clockwise by the same number of turns to increase tension or counterclockwise to decrease it. In the latter case, you will need to push the wheel forward.
UNLESS I'm bat-sh@$t crazy this is EXACTLY WRONG - i.e. completely opposite.
The distance between the sprockets is 24" - if I
press upward on the bottom run at the centerpoint the chain was so loose it would TOUCH the swingarm - and right away I had some doubt about the 46-48mm spec.
But we continued - I loosend the axle nuts (30mm by the way) and turned the adjsuters (8mm btw) CLOCKWISE a full turn - only to find that LOOSENED the chain, NOT tightened it.
(btw, put a mark on the adjusters that you can see when the socket is on them and it's easy to make sure you move both the exact same amount).
So I went back to my starting position and turned it COUNTERCLOCKWISE - lo-and-behold it actually tightened the chain.
I got it tight enough that I thought it was approachin too tight, and pressed upward on the bottom rung and measured - the gap was now 40mm and tightening it further was not going to give me a larger gap.
That's when it hit me, that if the manual was completely ass-backwards on adjusting distance, why couldn't it also be so about how you press on the damn chain.
So I instead pressed DOWNWARD on the bottom run of the chain (away from the swingarm) and set the tension so THAT produced a 46-48mm gap (I went with 48 to be sure because it still seemed a bit tight).
At this setting I found that IF I pushed the chain upward it would no longer hit the plastic swingarm protector - as a matter of fact it JUST missed it with small enough a gap that I suspect that is on purpose and I BET a valid "quick-check" of the chain is to push it up and make sure it doesn't contact that plastic piece.
Anyway I'm bringing it to FBF next week to reset the service light, and to return the wrong crush washer and get the right ones and I guess while I'm there I'll ask the tech about my chain adjustment procedure.
But seriously WTF - I've been working in the tech manual industry for decades and I've seen a LOT of stupid mistakes (especially from translations) but this one was up there with the best.
A couple of shots.
This first one shows the differences in the engine cases - how the oil filter is fully exposed. The nice part about that is you really don't need a cap wrench (though ironically I had the proper size one in my box anyway).
(http://www.gigabikes.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10081/EngineCaseFilter.jpg)
This next shot shows the relevant plugs. Note that not visible in this photo, but back a little behind the oil drain plug and pretty much all the way to the left side is that diagonally threaded plug I mentioned in the first post.
(http://www.gigabikes.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10081/OilPlugs.jpg)
Hope this helps another Duc Newbie...
I like the recess oil filter of the older 696 better. Having it sticking out is a bit of an eye sore. The down side is that I'm dripping oil because I haven't gotten a filter wrench yet.
I guess I'm weird that way - I like the mechanical nature of it sticking out - in the recess it's just harder to access. On my Guzzi Breva it's in a bore underneath the bike (like the oilhead BMWs) and I hate not being able to get my hands on it.
Oh, I haven't had a chain drive bike in the garage since the mid-90s.
Anyone mind giving me their thoughts on my chain adjustment procedure?
One more bump to see if anyone has thoughts on the chain adjusment procedure.
Quote from: Kev M on July 03, 2011, 12:47:03 PM
One more bump to see if anyone has thoughts on the chain adjusment procedure.
It's in your manual...
The adjust the two bolts in rear to tighten/loosen chain to correct setting
Quote from: DoWorkSon on July 04, 2011, 10:08:37 AM
It's in your manual...
The adjust the two bolts in rear to tighten/loosen chain to correct setting
LOL, I appreciate the reply, but you didn't read the thread (probably cause it's too damn wordy).
Earlier in the thread I detailed how the information in the factory service manual APPEARS to be back-assward (direction you turn the adjusters and how your measure the ga) and I wanted someone to confirm or tell me how they measure chain play or the gap.
WOW -but while we're on the subject I just checked the owner's manual (silly me going to the service manual first) and though the owner's manual gives the same basic confusing procedure for gap, I just noticed it says 145 Nm for the rear axle nut (107 ft. lbs.) - WOAH, the service manual I have must be out of date, I think it said and I used something more like 80 Nm (60 ft. lbs.), guess I need to go out and retighten it. :-[
I also, didn't realize Ducati wants you to tighten the chain adjuster screws to hold the position after you tighten the axle nut - so I'll do that too...
Damn I'm such a Ducati Newbie
Continuing the theme of talking to myself here -
WTF? I continue to remain befuddled by anythint Ducati puts into print.
Went out to the shop, tried to snug up the adjsuter bolts. Factory Service Manual says 8 Nm (5 ft. lbs.), and Owner's Manual (OM) says 10 Nm (7 ft. lbs.) - tried to tighten one to it and it seemed to be turning WAY too much (enough to scare me to stopping).
The adjusters go through the aluminum swingarm (might be threaded at that point, not sure) and then either go into an aluminum adjusting block OR sit push against it (can't really tell without disassembly).
Tightening it THAT much really looks like it could strip the aluminum. So I said screw it and started over -
* Loosened axle nut
* Readjusted chain to 48mm gap when pushing down on top center of bottom run (it was out as soon as I loosened the nut, I assume because of my preloading the adjusters trying to tighten them)
* Tightened axle nut (this time to 80 ft. lbs because 106 just sounds too F#$^#$ high and 80 was halfway between FSM and OM).
* Then I just SNUGGED the adjuster bolts.
I don't think I'm going to bother reading much more of the OM or FSM in the future.
Final installment (maybe)
Just got back from a nice 100 mile round trip to the Dealer to reset the maintenance light and for them to double-check my work.
- no explanation from them regarding the torque specs - only that "the factory manual sounds like the one for the 695".
- no explanation from them regarding the chain specs - except that they said "it was too tight by about 8mm so we cleaned and loosened it".
HOWEVER, I get home and double-check it (warm instead of cold, I'll check again once it cools) and it is EXACTLY in the same spec I used - i.e.
Push down on chain at center of bottom run and measure gap between the center of the pins and the swingarm - it's about 48mm.
Alternately push upward at same point and you end up with about a 1" gap between the top of the links and the swingarm - and the links JUST miss the chain guide on the arm.
As I said, I'll check again once it's cold just to be sure, but I think I've got it.
So cold it loosened up 2mm.
Push up and it's 1" from center of pins to swingarm (instead of top of chain).
Push down and it's 2" (50mm) from center of pins to swingarm.
So factory spec is for hot chain and I was 2mm tight. (EDIT - factory spec is fine - you're just not supposed to preload the chain WHILE measuring it).
Won't Kev ever stop posting to this thread? :-*
So I was cleaning up the bike and noticed that I'd never bothered to read the sticker on the swingarm that talks about chain adjustment (probably because since it's the same photo as the owner's manual I ASSumed that it said the said thing, well I was wrong).
Turns out the text on the sticker was written by someone who speaks English!
Unlike the factory service manual and owner's manual the STICKER plainly says:
"With the motorycle on the sidestand, push chain downwards with a finger at midway of chain lower section and release. Measure the final distance between the aluminum section of the swingarm and chain pin centre. Reference value is 46-48mm."
So it makes sense that I set it a little tight as the factory and owner's manuals said to "push" and "measure" but said nothing about RELEASING the chain.
[bang]
what did fbf charge to turn the light off? I need to go this week.
Quote from: scout304 on July 11, 2011, 08:05:01 AM
what did fbf charge to turn the light off? I need to go this week.
Get this - ONE HOUR labor.
Yup, hooking up a scan tool and taking 5 minutes (if that) to run through the menu = ONE HOUR of labor.
In their defense, I DID ask them to double-check the chain adjustment so that must have taken AT LEAST 10-15 minutes more.
[roll]
Then I get home this weekend and pull the valve covers off my Breva to reset valve lash and realiize some shop monkey installed the gaskets DRY (they are supposed to be lightly oiled or greased so they don't bake on the heads) and the covers are stuck (baked on). ARGH, serves me right for bringing them a Guzzi and asking them to tune it. Never had a problem on that Guzzi or any of my others with the valve covers before - this time I had to spend about an HOUR carefully carving off the old pieces of gasket from the head. [bang]
From what I've heard that is the pretty standard charge here as well. We have a minimum 500km (310mile) round trip to our nearest dealer, who isn't exactly well known for quality work and a 1200km (745mile) round trip to the nearest service shop with a solid reputation. We end up doing a lot of our own work as well - and I was in your exact situation when I needed to change the oil on my 2011 696, nothing matched! I talked to a friend and ended up just going with that center bolt and finding out it was the correct one. Now my biggest challenge is finding a crush washer, since I need to change my oil again this weekend and our dealership is a 2 1/2 hr drive away. After what they charged me to change it the first time, the bike isn't going back there for an oil change again, and I'd prefer to be picky about what oil I run in it anyway.
On the other hand the biggest challenge that I've been having with this bike is oil leaking from the filter, and I had the filter some how come slightly loose on me in the middle of a 3400km mountain trip. Not cool to warm your bike up in the morning and see oil all over the ground. I'm going to try a K&N filter this weekend to see if it will end my leak issues. I'm a relatively light weight rider and my chain is still within spec, so I haven't needed to adjust it yet.
Well I picked up some crush washers at FBF - had to ask twice cause they TRIED to give me the same sized one again (which was funny since I had it in my hand, had showed it to them and explained it was the wrong size and I was returning it lol).
Turns out the drain plug washers are probably about the exact same size as the ones for the crankcase oil on my Guzzi Breva (don't know why I didn't check my stash of them when I was changing the oil on the Monster - yup, cause I'm a dumbass sometimes). But at least it looks like I have damn near a lifetime supply of the things now.
Oil filter leaking - that's a weird one. I've never had that on uh, pretty much anything (though I probably jinxed myself by typing that). I have heard reports of some Guzzis doing that - thought was there was a bad batch of OEM filters - the length of the threaded portion or something like that, but again, I haven't seen it. That would annoy the crap outta me though, especially far from home.
Best of luck,
Kev