Ducati Monster Forum

The OTHER heated thread (Old vs. New) got me thinking about this. I didn't want to clutter that thread up and thought maybe we could keep this discussion going on its own.

I own a 2006 Monster S2R 1000. And I also own a 2007 Monster S4RS. I'd gladly trade (or sell... which I am shortly) the S2R1k. I mean... it goes without saying the S4RS is a better, more fun bike. But is it a better MONSTER? That's what I have been thinking about for the last few months.

There are a few camps within Ducati (and Monster) ownership with their differing views about this. Most Monsters are, let's face it: Air Cooled. They came into this world in the early 90s as air cooled 2V naked bikes and many people (Ducati themselves included at present) think they should (and should have) always stay/stayed this way. I used to think the same thing. The 2V bikes are lighter, more nimble. They are cheaper to buy and cheaper to maintain. They are good for beginners but they aren't boring for experienced riders. They really are the embodiment of what we know Monsters for.

However, let's look at what circumstances gave birth to the Monster. This is where I start understanding the water-cooled bikes more.


This part of the Monster's history is particularly interesting to me. Part of the reason the Monster is so so successful is that it is based on the 851/888 chassis and suspension, but it has the 'underwhelming' engine from an SS (whose entire bike design was based off of the 70s SS). While Ducati have updated the air cooled motors over the years, the principle has stayed the same: underwhelming power in a superbike-derived frame will make a brilliantly fun bike. They didn't want to cannibalize the 750/900 SS bikes with another naked/cafe-style bike that had more power and better frame geometry. The SS had heritage, style, panache.

Here's where I get into my newfound love of water-cooled Monsters. They take the monster back to it's 851/888 roots. While it might be visually unappealing for some, I think it relates nicely with the beauty of a naked 851/888. This brutal stuff-everything-up-there-and-throw-a-tank-on-it look befits the Monster.

(http://i29.tinypic.com/2ibia3c.jpg)


If the S4 dipped it's toes into this realm with it's Desmoquattro hidden in it's trellis and it's rather unassuming look, the S4R really embraced the Superbike history of the Monster (albeit the now-more-modern 996 bikes rather than the 888). Obviously that led to the Testastretta models and the S4RS as the Monster's swan song. An assortment of superbike-inspired (or directly borrowed) parts from the stiffened frame to the 998cc engine to the wheels to the Ohlins suspension to the radial Brembos and appropriate master cylinders and hand-controls. It became clip-ons, fairings, and a rear subframe away from a legit Ducati Superbike. Insanity.

Simply put: I MUCH prefer my S4RS to my S2R1k even on suspension and brakes alone. Add power to that equation and I don't even want to keep the 2V bike. Honestly. Actually, I wrote that wrong. The power makes me want to ride the S4RS. The suspension and brakes make me want to throw the S2R1k off a cliff... and the S2R1k is supposed to have the best suspension and brakes of all 2V Monsters.

Most people will say that to them the Monster is a sporty frame with a 2V air cooled motor. A fun bike on the twisties and not too much of a handful around town. Something to ride around town when you didn't want to raise hellfire and ride your more proper Ducati. Indeed that's how Ducati themselves are treating the Monsters. Now they are even more relaxed feeling and consumer-oriented.

But in all the ownership and experience and realization that has come from the S4RS, I've began to love it more than any other Monster. It's a perfect swan song for the old 888-based bike. A final model utilizing all their then-current Superbike technology and engineering to celebrate the Monster, a bike that we can all agree has made history -no matter what model you own.

Not only do I think water cooled Monsters are REAL Monsters, I think that given their pedigree they are some of the BEST Monsters.




***I still love my 2V bike. It's noticeably lighter than the 4V bike and it's still a blast to ride. I just find it interesting when people say that the only Monsters worth having are the 2V bikes... I say they should ride an S4RS.***

You know, that's an interesting facet.  I know the original M900 / M750 was derived from the 851/888 (and my M900 was modeled as a lightweight 888 with the updates).

So as the Monster lineage runs from early air cooled 2V through the S4R water cooled, I'd have to say the obvious:  the Monster line is split and both make sense.  Here's why.

The S4R was a return to form if you will, even is they weren't raced as the 815 and 888 were.  They simply went back, added the appropriate powerplant from the superbikes, upgraded the suspension.  Essentially an unfaired racebike.

S2Rs on the other hand are pure to the original Monster lineage.  Not pure to the parents of you will.  But look at what NCR has done with the simple air cooled twin.  'Add lightness' as Colin Chapman might say.  I find myself falling into the 'pure and simple' category instead of wanting for power.

But. . . you're spot on with your observation that the S2R is outfitted with possibly the worst spec suspension, brakes and clutch compared to what the S4R or other companies were offering those years.  The most frustrating thing here is that to upgrade the S2R properly and take advantage of the simplicity and purity of the 'Monster' line, it will cost over 4K to do it properly.  Forks, brakes, clutch slave and minor performance mods add up so I sympathize with you wanting to throw it off a cliff!  In fact, I had this very discussion with a DNA representative this afternoon.  That upgrading any Ducati properly will cost 30-50% of the MSRP!

So yeah.  In the most long winded way possible, I agree with your take on the S4R being the 'odd Duck', but in my mind it just gets back to the racing genetics.  Now the argument would be whether it's only a street pose machine since it never had a race pedigree.

I agree with your agreement.

This kinda came about because I was thinking "What the hell am I doing with 2 of (basically) the same bike?" Why not have a Monster (proper) and a Superbike (996, 998, 999) instead of this bastardized S4RS. I mean honestly... it's a bit heavy (stock) and it's got real weird ergos for hustling around at a good clip.

But then I right away ditched the heavy udder-and-stock-cans for a full Termi, put clip-ons on it (which it should have from the factory, in my opinion) and started riding it real hard. On the rides home from the canyons, it was still a comfortable bike. We could stop somewhere for food and I didn't dread getting back on it. I still ride it to do small errands and never found myself hating the clip-ons, etc.

That's when I was like "Why does this bike work so well?" Besides the obvious: Engine and suspension. I mean it works in a have-1-bike-ride-everywhere kind of way. And well.

Maybe it just fits me nicely. I'm 27 and can't really have a stable of bikes. I'd love to walk into a garage and choose between a 750SS, 900SS, 888, 916, 996R, 999R, 1098S, M900, S4RS, Sport 1000 PS, Multistrada 1200S, Hyper 1100, etc. I don't have the means to do that, nor do most people. In choosing 1 of those bikes to have though, I think the S4RS would be my choice every time (taking into account maintenance costs of older bikes as well as the general riding-and/or-historical-payoff).


As for the last part: Unless you're getting into "R" and "SPS" models, not many of the bikes you can buy bear much resemblance to any race bikes. In this regard, the S4RS excels since it's using Superbike parts with a more street-oriented frame and geometry. Again, as a "I can only have 1-or-so bikes" bike, it's really a nearly perfect choice.

What I find wanting to do to the S2R is revise / replace the suspension from the forks to the shock.  On the M900 when I did that, the back end COMMUNICATED with me instead of feeling like I was riding on a 4x4.  Then I did R&Ts on the front and it was a different bike (though not without some serious cost).

If the S2R had that same level of Ohlins front and back, I'd wager it would be a choice between raw power and finesse /lightness.  I know there's no substitute for that power hit but I don't ride anywhere where I need more than 90hp and I'd rather have a flickable bike and a suspension I trust.  Doing that simple replacement adds up though and I find myself asking if it's worth changing forks, wheels brakes, triples, lines etc.

I have no opinion. I have earned the right to have no opinion. I have a '77 900SS (in boxes), a '82 900SS Hailwood Rep, a '97 916SPS, a '99 996S, a '05 999, a '06 Sport 1000 (Back in Black #2, all Ohlins, built by Jeff Nash/AMS) and a '07 S2R1000. Last I checked, Monsters are Monsters. [laugh]

I love my s4r, especially now that it has a ton of aftermarket goodies on it. 

But when I brought it home, and parked it next to the 999s...I knew the SBK's days were numbered.  For everyday riding, the monster is better for me (until I bring home a mts1200)

Still no opinion and Monsters are always just Monsters. [laugh] ;D

agreed. [beer]

The originals were pretty much a factory issued "parts bin" jalopy/hot rod of sorts

inspired by the reuse of trashed sport bikes and sport bike parts by the less "monied" street riders

Remember that Galluzzi's inspiration came from what already existed, what was being cobbled together and used on the streets

in the greater sense, Ducati stayed true to the "something borrowed, something new, something old and something true" conceptual soul of the Monster

all the way through the 4V liquid cooled machines including the incorporation of the SSS rear...these things were the sorts of items the street mechanics would love to have salvaged and adapted into their low budget slap-togethers

the more recent partially trellis'd efforts seem/look/are more integrated "purpose-built" machines than the Cagiva era originals, they work and make their owners happy or miserable accordingly

if I were to draw a metaphor it would be along the lines of the old Ford Thunderbird....1955 was the real deal, 1956 was the real deal with tweaks, 1957 was still in the same camp but with a partial re-think on the design esthetics.....

from 1958 onward the T-Bird was completely lost..... off the rails and into the woods with 4 passengers sitting in it

just my .02

No

I guess I'm partial, so I'll say yes...

...S4R and loving every minute of it... Every ride reminds me it's a Monster.

Ducati to ya-

I can't keep mine running...that makes it a "real" Monster, yes?   [evil]

Quote from Duck Stew in the 848 Streetfighter thread a while back

1993-2001 Monster frames were based on the 888 SBK frame which was water-cooled.
2002-2008 Monster frames were based on the ST frames which were water-cooled.
2009 & up Monsters don't have frames.  :P

I'm not sure what to add to keep the discussion going, as I found the original post a bit challenging to follow.  There's the point....no, it's over there!  Ha, gotcha!   Nope, not there either!   

Then again, I'm only halfway through my coffee.   [coffee]

that's ok just post the part that you want...or post a reply about something that wasn't even mentioned...I like doing that

Monsters are air-cooled. There, I said it.

I too am still half way through my coffee, so I might not make sense either but here it goes.

Not long ago when the "new" Monsters hit the roads everyone said "cant wait for a liquid cooled one"

Then Ducati introduced the Streetfighter which everyone scratched their heads and said "that seems redundant"

Then no liquid cooled Monster in sight.

Ducati answered your question for you....Monsters are air cooled.

I think of the Streetfighter as the update for the liquid cooled Monster.

 [popcorn]

Although I agree with you, I couldn't help but noticing the contradiction in your reply.  If your first statement is true (Monsters are air-cooled), then your second statement wouldn't make sense (Liquid-cooled "Monster").  So what is the Streetfighter really replacing?   [cheeky]

/random thought

Great now my head hurts

Refer to first statement.

 ;D

I want an air-cooled superbike.   :)


I prefer the simplicity of the air-cooled Monsters, both in terms of look and engine design.  That's not to say that the S4 Monsters aren't Monsters.  Perhaps Ducati should have called the liquid-cooled models by another name back when they were released... apparently they decided to go that route when they split the line and started calling them Streetfighters.

I'm confused... but still have no opinion. ;D

Ooh, I almost forgot


You Sir, you suck.

 [thumbsup]  [clap]

Carry on.

I prefer the SBK-based platforms, so I prefer the pre-ST Monsters because it is based on the 851-888, but clearly is changed by the welded on subframe, and different power plant. The change in powerplant doesn't bother me too much, the idea of the Monster is a clean, naked bike. Hard to do that with the 3v & 4v motors, quite evident in the 'narrower radiator' thread going on.

The S4, which moved to the ST frame (so a departure from the SBK-frame based platform) got the 916 engine (in a detuned form - due in part from the S4 gots no ram-air like the 851-888-916 desmoquattro motors when in SBK form). So a "SBK"-esque powerplant, no longer a SBK based frame, though the rear suspension setup is like the 916 style rocker+rod setup, so perhaps arguably similar in that aspect.   The 2v ones retained the uncluttered look but moved to the ST platform, now the only "SBK" element really being the suspension link setup...

The S4R / S4Rt-S4RS models got a trellis SSS, and to me, made them a combo of a detuned SBK motor + monster tank + MH900e.  Similarly, the S2R versions are closer to the MH900e than they are to a SBK, so while being close to original monster in design - 2v - they have only the suspension link setup similar to a 916 - the swingarm / rear wheel is more MH900e, in my opinion, than it is 916.   The 2002-later Monsters, + S4, would be much more monster-ish if using the frame-swingarm-pivot point like on the 916 to stay in SBK-history, to me.  

4V motors are certainly more SBK-ish than a 2V motor, but the original motor could easily have had a 4v motor - the desmoquattro 851/888 power plant was available - it wasn't built that way because the design was a "less-is-more" aesthetic (a whole lot due to the "parts-bin special" nature of the Monsters - clearing out a bunch of Paso and old SS parts, etc).

At this point, looking back across the line-up, SBK-trickle-down is less significant it seems, but the 'less-is-more' with a 2V powerplant is the general line theme. The 4v Monsters stick out a bit as oddities in light of the earlier 2v-only line, their contemporaneous 2v line, and the subsequent (now present) 2v-only line.

I agrizzle, but apparently in more words.

Dry air is primarily made up of nitrogen (78.09%) and oxygen (20.95%). The remaining 1% is made up of argon (0.93%), carbon dioxide (0.039% as of 2010) and other trace gases (0.003%). Water vapor (water in its gaseous state) is also present in the atmosphere in varying amounts, by up to 2%.

both are water cooled ;)







bazinga!

Lol love my s4rs :)

I would like to add that S2R and other bigger 2V Monster are cooled by an oil cooler.  These monsters are technically oil-cooled while the baby monsters (400, 600, 620, 695), without oil cooler, are truly air-cooled, or in bp's words, water-cooled.

You like how I reopened that can of worms?  You're welcome.   [laugh]

Now my head hurts even more

Thanks everyone

No shit. I want to say something sarcastic, but light hearted.  Couldn't think of anything.  So I'll just say it.  You are the long-winded-est person on this forum. Not that there is anything wrong with that. I just have to mentally prepare when I start reading your posts.  Sort of like when you start a book and then you realize this is taking a long time and I haven't even made a dent in it yet, so you turn to the back of he book to see how many pages it has. Don't change. You obviously enjoy your hobby.

Question:  I know the second gen frame is ST derived, but isn't the ST frame just an updated design based on the Monster frame of the time. So if this is true, all the pre-2009 Monsters are 851/888 based.

I was going to say exactly this. What makes an ST frame unique enough to say that later Monsters are based on them?

Why wouldn't you say that an ST frame is also derived in it's own unique way from an 851/888 (just like a Monster)?

Not so.

The only monster that is oil cooled are some of the early 900s.

It was to the best of my knowledge the only 2V motor with an actual oil jacket around the cylinder.

The fact that the oil is cooled by a cooler doesn't make an engine 'oil cooled'.

LOL.

Round and round and round we go.
Where it stops don't no one know.

 [laugh]

Are garage queens Monsters?

Haha.

It would be awesome if 20 years from now when they try and put some in museums, there aren't any in 'showroom condition'.


Sadly this won't be the case...

Are water-cooled Monsters really Streetfighters?

I wanted to reply to this. No, I don't think so. The new Street Fighter is such an over-done spaceship. It lacks all finesse and panache that the Superbikes (and Monsters) have. Such a shame...

what if you slap a bunch of superbike-grade suspension components and clip-ons on your aircooled monster? then do you have something better than the water-cooled (minus the power)?

riding my 800 with it's upgraded forks alone (rear shock will happen some day i hope) is like riding a feather on lightning-bolt.

I submit for your approval my opinion.


Thats what I did. And no, its no longer a Monster. It just changes the attitude of the bike and thats what the Monster, to me, is. The posture, the feeling, the rawness.....I changed all that and I no longer have a monster (in a sense)

That said, yes, the water cooled ones are monsters. They're just Bigger Badder monsters. The Air cooled ones are Leaner Meaner.

The ST frame uses the double-bar ass end of the frame, and the "ST-based" Monster frames deleted that cuz its oogly, but that's where the rear suspension came from - interchangeables. BAM! 1.5 sentences, muckalucka

 [clap] Good job.  But, we still need an occasional long post to fill the day.

So the ST frames are updated Monster frames with updated rear suspension and double bar rear section. Any other changes?  Is the steering head geometry the same?  Isn't the steel tubing a litle thicker?

different steering head all together - the 851-888-"M900" frames use the thinner stem with top "bolt" over top triple into center of stem - retaining collar-nut below top triple to hold bearings/lower-triple/head-stock all together. And the top triple also has pinch bolt to clamp it stem.  when you compare to the later monsters (and ST's and 916 and later SBKs and all current models), that top "bolt" is redundant (and was eliminated completely - and on my bike, replaced with one of the motowheels billet bling ones - at first I was concerned you could not 'torque' it properly, but again - its redundant, if it popped off, you would not suddenly be in the weeds)

yer new-fangled monster replaces the bearing collar-nut with the stem-nuts with holes in the top that the top triple pinches around.

851-888, monster frames thereon, and old SS:   skinny stem setup, and either hooped or no-linkage rear suspension

ST's & Monster frames thereon: new, bigger stem setup, interchangeable swingarm-rocker-rod suspension linkage (fairly similar to 916)


long posts happen when i am taking an unconscious diversion from whatever i'm supposed to be doing. Like reviewing TX law regarding fundamental corporate changes or completely unrelated community property or completely unrelated real property transactions... only 1 week till freedom

monster history:
I just read an interview online (can't remember where) w/ Miguel Galuzzi and Claudio Castiglioni. In about 1992 Galuzzi built and was riding a stripped down 888 based naked bike to work that he built for himself. Claudio loved it and urged Miguel to design a naked bike. One of the main reasons to install the supersport motor was that the 1990-1991 (pre-'91-98) Supersports were not selling and Ducati had a whole lot of 900 Supersport motors lying around. Of course the simplicity and lack of the UGLY radiator & plumbing of the 888 certainly helped. The Monster was born -first actually conceived as a 4V bike. W/o the M900, Ducati may have gone under. (how many times have they been saved from the brink...tpg...etc?).

Financial reasons strengthen it of course, but I've always been on the simpler, lighter, better built !  more reliable 2V'ers. Just plain better day-to-day bikes but not the beasts I'm sure S4RS's are. The 2Vers are not quite "modern bikes" anymore, but classics. The evolution of Ducati's 2V bikes reminds me a lot of Porche's 911 evolution.

Oh, and as most know, the early M900 guys were installing 916 rear ends on them long before any S*R's came out...


Now where is our 350lb 110 hp 2V supersport? probably only 'old guys' would buy them- like the sales failures the Sport 1000's.

I'll have to look at the steering head and triple of an early generation Monster the next time I see one to compare.

How about the tubing that makes up the frames.  I've heard people call the earliest frames skinny tubes frames.  Is there a difference in the size of the tubing?

I wouldn't call the Sport Classics sales failures. They sold well during their first couple of years. They had their run and I wouldn't be surprised to see something similar again in a few years.

The problem with the 350lb 110hp 2V Supersport is cost.  It will cost too much to build. High end components and light weight materials would have to be used.

Well, technically, any internal combustion engine is oil cooled to some degree.  [cheeky]

I miss my air-cooled Monster.

Yes, but it defines a difference in cooling design and burden just like BMW airheads and oilheads. 

I like ben spies.

I still love my S4Rs

I love my two old v2 (00 and 01 900's) monsters. I only think of them as monsters because I can't afford an S4R at the moment.

 I mean, I could afford to buy one on credit, but I'm a cheap prick who won't carry any debt other than a mortgage.


When I can afford an S4R, I will think of it as a monster as well, but until that time, it's not and only my beloved air cooled v2's are

Off topic but needs to be said at some point with all the other opinions, Only 900 and 1000 air cooled are Monsters.  620's and such are girly bikes   ;D    ;D      ;D



mitt

  My 2001 SS 750 started its life out  as  a SS but now its a street fighter looking bike ... It is a real monster 750  is the bench mark . I do ride a 350cc A RZ 120 mph 350  .

"Some kid back in town. Traded the van for it, straight up. I can get fifty miles to the gallon on this hog."

:D   Just when I think you couldn't possibly be any dumber, you go and do something like this…and totally redeem yourself!

 [laugh] [laugh] [laugh]

good luck btw

thanks, tests start tomorrow.