I seem to have a dead/dying rectifier. Unless I did something wrong, at idle I was only seeing 6v output from it. The stator input at idle was in the 18-20v range.
Is this what I need?
http://www.ca-cycleworks.com/products/electrical/electrosport-regulator-esr532 (http://www.ca-cycleworks.com/products/electrical/electrosport-regulator-esr532)
That RR will work for your bike.
Here's a good testing procedure to identify the problem:
http://www.electrosport.com/technical-resources/library/diagnosis/fault-finding-guide.php (http://www.electrosport.com/technical-resources/library/diagnosis/fault-finding-guide.php)
Quote from: Speeddog on August 26, 2011, 07:26:37 PM
That RR will work for your bike.
Here's a good testing procedure to identify the problem:
http://www.electrosport.com/technical-resources/library/diagnosis/fault-finding-guide.php (http://www.electrosport.com/technical-resources/library/diagnosis/fault-finding-guide.php)
thanks for the link. I did just a quick 'check battery, check stator, check rr' when I got home tonight, but going to follow that full diagnostic tomorrow to ensure the cause.
Quote from: Speeddog on August 26, 2011, 07:26:37 PM
That RR will work for your bike.
Here's a good testing procedure to identify the problem:
http://www.electrosport.com/technical-resources/library/diagnosis/fault-finding-guide.php (http://www.electrosport.com/technical-resources/library/diagnosis/fault-finding-guide.php)
so I'm following the steps and I'm confused.
On the first page, I set to DC, rev the engine to 2500 and I got less than 13.5v
I have 2 wire colors (2 red, 2 green) coming from the RR. The next steps says "connect red to the red output wire, black to the battery" and I got 1.9V. It says "less than .2v" or "more than .2v" which 1.9v seems way over the .2 threshold.
in the meantime, while idling, I noticed the RR got really hot which concerns me.
argh
The check you're doing is to ensure that your wiring is okay. If it's good, the voltage along any given wire (red at the RR to battery +, for example) should be really low.
In your example, the wire is high resistance, so the voltage across the wire is very high. This is probably due to a burned out connector.
The way RR's on most bike work is that the stator produces power, which the RR then regulates down to the battery voltage and charges the battery. Once the battery is full (or if the battery isn't accepting the power because of a wiring fault, like you have) the RR then dissipates the excess power from the stator as heat.
Your RR may not be stuffed at this point, but if you continue to use the bike like this, it's only a matter of time before it is, and it's likely to catch fire.
recently did some stator and rectifier work on my girlfriends gixxer... my plan of attack was simple...
replace the entire charging system...
lol
(seriously though, that's what we did... new stator, R/R, battery... bike runs like new)
looks like it is the esay fix and change out the one part for a C note .. Use silacone grease for the plug .
If you have output from all three stator wires, the connection to the regulator is good, all other connections (including grounds) are good and you do not have 13.5-14.5 volts at the red wire to the battery you need a regulator. Oh, and hot is normal. Your car regulator controls charging by inceasing or decreasing field strength. Your Duc regulator does this by turning excess generated electricity into heat.
well replaced the R/R, jumped it off my car, idles for a few minutes then dies. Pretty much the same as it did the day it died on the street.
Quote from: Privateer on August 31, 2011, 08:44:24 PM
well replaced the R/R, jumped it off my car, idles for a few minutes then dies. Pretty much the same as it did the day it died on the street.
Good to hear your RR is good then!
Now go and actually troubleshoot the problem before spending piles more money.
the electro sport guide says to check the connectors between the RR and the battery... not even sure where they are let alone how to check them.
I wish i wasn't broke at the moment...
I followed the output wires based on the "You have a bad positive connection" and didn't see any obvious connectors, everything seems to be hidden in the wire harness.
OK, so another ignorant question. following the trouble shooting guide, it says to check the V while touching the negative battery terminal and the positive output wire from the RR. it also says to 'keep the RR connected' while doing that.
do they mean keep it connected to the input from the stator and unplug the output connector?
Thanks.
Quote from: Privateer on September 01, 2011, 06:22:03 PM
I followed the output wires based on the "You have a bad positive connection" and didn't see any obvious connectors, everything seems to be hidden in the wire harness.
OK, so another ignorant question. following the trouble shooting guide, it says to check the V while touching the negative battery terminal and the positive output wire from the RR. it also says to 'keep the RR connected' while doing that.
do they mean keep it connected to the input from the stator and unplug the output connector?
Thanks.
The guide says nothing about removing/unplugging anything, I would think that they mean backprobe the connection at the RR connector for the positive output wire that goes back to the Positive battery connection circuit so a voltage drop measurement can be done. Think of it as a plugged strainer in a water pipe and you are reading a differential pressure gauge(a gauge that takes the difference between the pressure of the inlet to the strainer and the outlet).
Quote from: drunkfatguy on September 01, 2011, 09:47:40 PM
The guide says nothing about removing/unplugging anything, I would think that they mean backprobe the connection at the RR connector for the positive output wire that goes back to the Positive battery connection circuit so a voltage drop measurement can be done. Think of it as a plugged strainer in a water pipe and you are reading a differential pressure gauge(a gauge that takes the difference between the pressure of the inlet to the strainer and the outlet).
thanks. i'm pretty new with troubleshooting electrical... wasn't sure how I get the probe inside the connector. Figure that out tomorrow I suppose.
Quote from: Privateer on September 01, 2011, 10:59:29 PM
thanks. i'm pretty new with troubleshooting electrical... wasn't sure how I get the probe inside the connector. Figure that out tomorrow I suppose.
use the pointed needle end probe connectors and pierce the insulation of the wire into the copper....do your measurments on both sides of the connectors...
TEST... START THE BIKE WITHOUT THE STATER PLUGGED INTO THE rectifier and measure AC voltage between each wire . You should have 16-18 AC volts per 1000 rpms so at idle you should see 16-20 volts at 3000 rpms three times that voltage . The maxaum output of the stator would be the wattage of your system divided by four. A current system output will be 520/4=130 AC volts .when testing ,increase the rpm of the motor the stator output will stop increasing well before redline . The max output should be 130 volts if it tests bad replace the stator .
Quote from: H-2 CHARLIE on September 02, 2011, 09:32:10 AM
TEST... START THE BIKE WITHOUT THE STATER PLUGGED INTO THE rectifier and measure AC voltage between each wire . You should have 16-18 AC volts per 1000 rpms so at idle you should see 16-20 volts at 3000 rpms three times that voltage . The maxaum output of the stator would be the wattage of your system divided by four. A current system output will be 520/4=130 AC volts .when testing ,increase the rpm of the motor the stator output will stop increasing well before redline . The max output should be 130 volts if it tests bad replace the stator .
thanks.
following this I only 18v AC at 2k not sure what I was measuring before that indicated the stator was OK. At 3k the most I got from one phase was 30v.
so seems to be the stator at this point.
Well rip it out of there and send it off to Ricks Motorsports electrics inc.,when they recieved it they called and said they had one on the shelf ready to go . $120-140 ..they tested my R/R for free and said it was fine ,nice guys .use motul full syn oil so it wont fry the stator as easy as semi oil .
Quote from: H-2 CHARLIE on September 03, 2011, 02:14:30 AM
Well rip it out of there and send it off to Ricks Motorsports electrics inc.,when they recieved it they called and said they had one on the shelf ready to go . $120-140 ..they tested my R/R for free and said it was fine ,nice guys .use motul full syn oil so it wont fry the stator as easy as semi oil .
I looked online at Ricks and all I saw were new stators. If I send the a suspect one, will they check it first? I didn't see where that service was offered.
thanks.
call them .... you might see your stator looking like mine with burnt chared oil crust caked on there .ask them to test the R/R they told me $10 for the test but did not charge me for that just for the rebuilt one they sent me .
this thread is proving very helpful, since i am trouble shooting the exact same problem.
i removed the stator plug and tested all 3 wires. They are in AC so i just put my tester between each wire correct? I got my 50 volts at ~5,000rpm ( i dont have a tach, but im just using my ear from comparing to another ducati monster). but according to the electrosport fault finding guide, i should still be questioning the stator since the resistance is lower than 3ohms or higher than 3 ohms...
so who do i believe?
The three wires are connected in a delta in the stator, so by testing the AC voltage between each combination of wires you test each of the three windings.
What's the resistance you're measuring, and how are you measuring it?
it was .2ohms, i measured it as the flow chart told me to. 1 lead (black) to the + on battery and 1 lead (red) to the regulators output (white/red wire).
The regulator has 2 grounds (2 green) and 2 positive (red/white).
0.2 Ohms on that connection is acceptable.
I thought you were measuring the resistance of your stator. You do that by putting your multimeter into ohms mode, disconnecting the cable to the stator, and measuring the resistance between each combination of yellow wires back to the stator.
Also test the resistance from each of the yellow wires to ground - this should be high.
i was measuring resistance between the RR output not the stator output, ill go back and test stator side.
just for curiosity sake, high resistance between stator and ground means what?
what reading should i get if i measure the ohms between each of the stators yellow wires?
assuming that is good, then i should point my finger at the RR?
I'm just reading along here, very Interesting topic also. He man, are you on the 2nd page that goes and asks you to do the resistance check between the 2 other wires other than the 3 yellow(or white=Yamaha), the block then has the arrow to the right that says "you have a reading lower than 3 ohms or higher than 10"? That's the Rotor/Armature resistance check right? I'm just trying to follow along as this is kinda Interesting.
Quote from: He Man on September 05, 2011, 07:51:55 PM
this thread is proving very helpful, since i am trouble shooting the exact same problem.
i removed the stator plug and tested all 3 wires. They are in AC so i just put my tester between each wire correct? I got my 50 volts at ~5,000rpm ( i dont have a tach, but im just using my ear from comparing to another ducati monster). but according to the electrosport fault finding guide, i should still be questioning the stator since the resistance is lower than 3ohms or higher than 3 ohms...
so who do i believe?
Ok I'm caught up, back to reading.
Quote from: He Man on September 05, 2011, 09:03:29 PM
just for curiosity sake, high resistance between stator and ground means what?
High resistance between the stator wires and ground means the stator windings aren't shorted out to ground. If the stator gets really hot, the insulation can degrade on the coils. Sometimes this results in really low resistance between stator wires, other times a low resistance between stator wire and ground. Either is bad.
Quote from: He Man on September 05, 2011, 09:03:29 PM
what reading should i get if i measure the ohms between each of the stators yellow wires?
Something like an ohm. If it's really low, like 0.2 ohms, it means the stator insulation is shot. If it's high (like 3 ohms) then one of the coils is open circuit.
Each of the measurements should be approximately the same, too. Actually this is more important than the actual resistance.
Quote from: He Man on September 05, 2011, 09:03:29 PM
assuming that is good, then i should point my finger at the RR?
You should also check the wiring resistance between the ground output of the RR and the ground at the battery (should be < 0.2 ohms) and the resistance of each of the three yellow wires from the stator output to the RR input (< 0.2 ohms), as well as AC volts on the stator windings while running the bike (50 odd V).
But yeah, if these checks work but you're not getting volts out of the RR, then the RR is shot.
Quote from: suzyj on September 05, 2011, 08:57:08 PM
You do that by putting your multimeter into ohms mode, disconnecting the cable to the stator, and measuring the resistance between each combination of yellow wires back to the stator.
engine running or off?
Quote from: suzyj on September 05, 2011, 09:32:41 PM
High resistance between the stator wires and ground means the stator windings aren't shorted out to ground. If the stator gets really hot, the insulation can degrade on the coils. Sometimes this results in really low resistance between stator wires, other times a low resistance between stator wire and ground. Either is bad.
Something like an ohm. If it's really low, like 0.2 ohms, it means the stator insulation is shot. If it's high (like 3 ohms) then one of the coils is open circuit.
Each of the measurements should be approximately the same, too. Actually this is more important than the actual resistance.
for me, checking the 3 phases of the stator I got 2.0, 1.9, and 1.8
normal?
YOU SHOULD SEE 16-20 VOLTS PER WIRE AT IDEL AND 3000 RPMS IS THREE TIMES THAT.MAX OUTPUT IS 130 VOLTS..... Another test is Test continuity test is test each yellow wire and ground ,and the second will be continuity test between each yellow wire and each yellow wire . on 3 wire stators make sure you test continuity between all 3 wires and each other ...... I think you can test with bike off as well .
The Desmotimes book I have doesn't really talk about it.
any tutorials on how to replace the stator?
im sure you can have it out in a hour or less . PULL THE SIDE COVER , PULL THE STATOR JUST A FEW BOLTS AND ITS RUNNING AGAIN USE GREY SEALENT .
got it all taken apart tonight. It looks like a chunk of the adhesive(?) holding the magnets on the drum came loose and baked itself on the stator. A couple of the winds have some black crusty stuff stuck to them that isn't uniform.
While it's all taken apart, anything else I should look for or check out?
What oil did you use on the long trip ? use the grey sealent everywhere and around the rubber wire plug . EASY FIX Dont strip the bolts i used red lock tight on the stator bolts .
Quote from: H-2 CHARLIE on September 15, 2011, 10:55:56 PM
What oil did you use on the long trip ? use the grey sealent everywhere and around the rubber wire plug . EASY FIX Dont strip the bolts i used red lock tight on the stator bolts .
mobile 1, same oil i've been using for 5 years.
here's that black crusty stuff on the backside of the old rectifier, if you can see it at the 3:30 position.
(http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/5889/201109140054.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/851/201109140054.jpg/)
That's where you've fried it. When your RR was getting really hot, it was pulling too much power from the stator, which in turn has made the stator windings heat up (p=i^2r). The heat has caused the enamel that the windings are coated in to burn up, causing the black mess.
So now, the stator resistance is low, because a bunch of turns are shorted out where the insulation burned, and the output from the stator isn't adequate.
You can get the stator rewound (or rewind it yourself) for a lot less than the cost of a new replacement.
This is one of the real issues with bike (or any) electronics. When something goes, other parts often fail soon after because of the damage. You can often mask the underlying problems, by say putting in a fresh battery, but the problems will be back, and the nice new part that you've put in will likely be stuffed as well.
What seems to cause this is a air cooled motor running on a hot day all day untill you cook / burn up the charging system .. really seems cool weather and nites the motor will run forever but on hot summer days = cook your stator .
Quote from: suzyj on October 01, 2011, 11:22:27 PM
That's where you've fried it. When your RR was getting really hot, it was pulling too much power from the stator, which in turn has made the stator windings heat up (p=i^2r). The heat has caused the enamel that the windings are coated in to burn up, causing the black mess.
So now, the stator resistance is low, because a bunch of turns are shorted out where the insulation burned, and the output from the stator isn't adequate.
You can get the stator rewound (or rewind it yourself) for a lot less than the cost of a new replacement.
This is one of the real issues with bike (or any) electronics. When something goes, other parts often fail soon after because of the damage. You can often mask the underlying problems, by say putting in a fresh battery, but the problems will be back, and the nice new part that you've put in will likely be stuffed as well.
In this day of digital electronics and surface mount chips, the appearance of motorcycle stators is always sort of disconcerting, they look to me a lot like something that came out of Thomas Edison's or Nikola Tesla's 19th century laboratories.