~ 500mi so far on the Evo. Not much, but getting a bit tired of the fueling issues. Stalls sometimes when rev-matching downshifts, super stumbly at anything below 4K; when engine's fully warmed up, sometimes taking off from a stop sign yields a stall if revs aren't > 2K. Maybe it's because I just came from a Japanese bike, but this is just a PITA. Some have said it's part of the Ducati charm; meh. Not acceptable drivability.
Question here is... with the Evo having DTC, I really wonder if a PC5 and/or a 14t countershaft sprocket would get along w/ the DTC OK. I'm not really wanting to drop $1800 on the Termi slip-on kit, just for the Termi ECU. OTOH, I'm not really a fan of "voiding" my warranty either (in reference to the Pro Italia/ducatiperformance.com $250 reflash). FWIW as an ancillary note, I'm OK w/ the OE exhaust (at least for now ;D)
I was a big fan of the Two Brothers Juice Box on my Yamaha. PnP, reasonably affordable, and no tuning required. Available only for the 696, I really wish they had at least an 1100 application. One other member here had indicated that the dealer could re-flash the ECU w/ new software, but I can't help but think that drivability would be improved marginally at best. To that effect, I do not understand what the difference is between my dealer being able to re-flash the ECU and not "void" the warranty, and Pro Italia's re-flash.
I understand the Evo's only been out only a few months and there aren't that many units in operation. But, UIO aside, anyone care to comment on viable countermeasures?
The issues you describe are not normal. They need to be addressed first.
I test rode the EVO recently and found the same low-speed fueling issues that you describe. I asked the dealer his opinion about the 14-tooth sprocket swap and he said he thought going from the 39-tooth rear sprocket to a 41-tooth was a better option.
He agreed that getting the revs out of the emissions zone faster would probably help, but that a 41-tooth rear was easier on the chain and produced better driveability. By this he meant that the 14-tooth countershaft option produced more drivetrain lash and more jerkiness on deceleration.
I would like to know more about the ECU and PC5 options as well.
Quote from: howie on September 01, 2011, 04:58:06 AM
The issues you describe are not normal. They need to be addressed first.
+1
Quote from: howie on September 01, 2011, 04:58:06 AM
The issues you describe are not normal. They need to be addressed first.
Careful. There is a bit of a fine line here between not normal & normal. There are known issues that can be resolved or made better, that's true. However, no matter how well tuned the engine is, there are still basic driveability characteristics that the big twin has and if the rider is looking to get the twin to act like an I4 that just isn't going to happen. I4's will always be easier to ride away from a stop and will display far less fueling issues at lower RPM's. Changing the gearing, either way, only moves the "problem" and makes it a bit easier to deal with but it doesn't eliminate it. The upgraded fuel/timing maps help a bunch for sure but still don't make the engine run like an I4.
My stalling issues were solved with a DP ECU. I don't really understand the lust for 14t sprockets? This thing pulls like a train, and wheelies with too much throttle in first already, I would think a 14t sprocket would make that "issue" worse. Currently 6500 miles and I don't have any driveability issues since the change to DP ECU, which resulted in also unhooking the exhaust flapper (maybe just a DUC.ee would have resolved this?) . Look around and you can find a DP ECU at a decent price for these...
Noe: for me the DP ECU actually tamed this thing quite a bit. at first I thought too much, but have gotten quite used to it. It did not increase power/torque for me (at least with my butt dyno) but did smooth everything out.
Scott
I have an EVO with ~1000 miles on it. I think that the issues you're describing are a little more than normal big twin drivability problems. I'd definitely get it checked at the dealer and make sure they verify any service bulletins have been performed.
For me, my initial feeling on the 1100 EVO is that it handles really well and is a blast to ride but I think that it has some core issues many of which are probably down to fueling. Beyond the fuel related issues, I have to say that the worst thing about the bike is the servo assisted APTC. It's really annoying/disconcerting to have the bike revving when I'm trying to stop...
Other than that I have a spare ECU now that I'm probably going to get flashed to increase the rev limit and I might have to remove the O2 sensors as well because I'm not exactly happy with the drivability down low either. I have a 14T front sprocket but I bought that because 6th gear was pretty pointless without it. ~4k RPM @ 80 MPH? When am I ever going to use that beyond the freeway (and honestly, only >65MPH speed limit freeways)?
Edit: for the record, this is my 3rd Ducati Monster so I'm no stranger to the low rev drivability issue.
I have an EVO and the stalling on downshifts is NOT normal.
The stumbling below 4k and stalling when taking off at 2k is the same on any big twin sport bike. I know ducatis and suzukis do it I can only assume the same is for the others. There isn't a big flywheel like on harley's and other twin cruisers to keep the engine turning at low RPMs. You gotta spin them up or they'll stumble and stall.
Quote from: Narflar on September 01, 2011, 08:45:36 PM
I have an EVO and the stalling on downshifts is NOT normal.
The stumbling below 4k and stalling when taking off at 2k is the same on any big twin sport bike. I know ducatis and suzukis do it I can only assume the same is for the others. There isn't a big flywheel like on harley's and other twin cruisers to keep the engine turning at low RPMs. You gotta spin them up or they'll stumble and stall.
BINGO!
To be fair, the stalling between a 3 --> 2 downshift happened just once, but was definitely such a sudden change, I thought I'd flipped the kill switch!
More consistently, what can happen is right after I start the bike. If I blip the throttle quickly, the engine will stall.
Granted, there is definitely a learning curve, much like moving from a Windows machine to a Mac, and I totally understand it's not going to be like an I4. I'll just start with getting more acclimated to dialing up the revs more, and consequently slip the clutch more.
I should be done w/ the break-in period in a week or so here, so I'll keep folks posted on what the dealer can do. With all honesty, I'm reluctant to make any gearing changes before the complete break-in process is done. The other thing about the gearing is that I'm under the impression that gearing changes would change the speedo reading. Right now with stock gearing, I'm seeing the speedo being just about matched with GPS speed. Pedantic, to be sure, though I do like that harmony. ;D
Quote from: pyrocpu on September 02, 2011, 09:44:50 PM
To be fair, the stalling between a 3 --> 2 downshift happened just once, but was definitely such a sudden change, I thought I'd flipped the kill switch!
More consistently, what can happen is right after I start the bike. If I blip the throttle quickly, the engine will stall.
Granted, there is definitely a learning curve, much like moving from a Windows machine to a Mac, and I totally understand it's not going to be like an I4. I'll just start with getting more acclimated to dialing up the revs more, and consequently slip the clutch more.
I should be done w/ the break-in period in a week or so here, so I'll keep folks posted on what the dealer can do. With all honesty, I'm reluctant to make any gearing changes before the complete break-in process is done. The other thing about the gearing is that I'm under the impression that gearing changes would change the speedo reading. Right now with stock gearing, I'm seeing the speedo being just about matched with GPS speed. Pedantic, to be sure, though I do like that harmony. ;D
Gearing changes will not affect the speedometer. The speed sensor is located at the rear wheel.
Try this for the stalling:
With the throttle closed and the fast idle off turn the key on and off three times (do not start). This will reset the TPS (throttle position sensor)
My 1100s stalled 3 times that I can recall. They all happened on downshifts. After the first time I brought it to the dealer they though that it was running to lean in the closed loop. They fiddled with the air screws I think, and sent me on my way.
It happened a couple more times, so I got an extra ECU cheap. I bought the Rexxer Unit and flashed it. I haven't had any stalling problems since.
The map I installed removed the closed loop (o2 sensors) which I think smoothed out the jerky ness of the lower rpms. I think that if I didn't already have the the 14 tooth sprocket installed i would have stayed with the stock sprocket.
Everything I have ever read or experienced with 2v bikes has always been low end stumble... What I have found, the harder you ride them(high rpms) they seem to run soooo much better.
Around town the bike might seem jerky and unstable, but once you get into the hills and ride the bike hard, it responds and runs like a dream.
Maybe it's that your not used to it yet coming from jab bikes? Riding a jap bike and a monster are two different beasts. if I were to go from my monster to a jap bike there might be a slight learning curve...
However, I have found that these new Gen bikes do need fueling adjustment, whether it's a reflash, power commander, or juice box(I have had all three). Power commander with the auto tune is the beat option in the long run
Howie--thanks for the TPS reset procedure. I'll give it a go in the morning. Since the 1100 doesn't have a fast idle lever, I assume I'll just leave that part out. Also good to hear that the speedo is driven off of wheel speed! Too much time in the car world, with vehicle speed determined at the output shaft of the trans.
DoWork--I did ride a bit more "spiritedly" in the back roads today. Elevation changes, cambered turns--you ARE right--this thing comes alive when moving a bit more. I hadn't really felt the "oneness" with the bike yet--today was the first day with that feeling. :)
I think what I'll do for now is to ride it until the 1st service. See what dealer can do. I really hope they can re-flash the ECU w/ something more workable. If that doesn't work, I'll have to start thinking long/hard to determine if $1800 on a Termi kit is even logical!
When your bike stalled, was the bike fully warmed up? On my 696, while a different beast, I only ever experience stalling issues when the bike is too cold. When I mean cold, I'm only referring to the engine temp not ambient.
Quote from: pyrocpu on September 03, 2011, 08:59:30 PM
Howie--thanks for the TPS reset procedure. I'll give it a go in the morning. Since the 1100 doesn't have a fast idle lever, I assume I'll just leave that part out. Also good to hear that the speedo is driven off of wheel speed! Too much time in the car world, with vehicle speed determined at the output shaft of the trans.
DoWork--I did ride a bit more "spiritedly" in the back roads today. Elevation changes, cambered turns--you ARE right--this thing comes alive when moving a bit more. I hadn't really felt the "oneness" with the bike yet--today was the first day with that feeling. :)
I think what I'll do for now is to ride it until the 1st service. See what dealer can do. I really hope they can re-flash the ECU w/ something more workable. If that doesn't work, I'll have to start thinking long/hard to determine if $1800 on a Termi kit is even logical!
Doh! 1100, no lever. No problem either. Just follow the rest of the procedure.
I doubt that your dealer will be able flash your ecu. Only a few companies offer that service.
Dowork had a good suggestion with the pc5 and autotune, however to take full advantage of this you still have to flash your ecu to remove the closed loop (o2 sensors) portion of the map. Without this autotune won't be able to adjust that portion of the map. The pc5 does come with something that tricks the ecu into sending more fuel to that area, but the autotune can't adjust it.
I dont know if the Termi kit would help you. It seems to me that your proplems are in the 0-4500rpm area ( closed loop). As far as I know the DP ECU that comes with that kit retains the closed loop portion of the map.
My 1100 EVO has 1600 miles on it, I agree with everyone on the fueling issues, however, I've learned to live with them. The bike does not stall while downshifting, however, it did stall a few times while coasting while grabbing the clutch at low speeds. The dealer (ProItalia) told me this is a common issue caused by a very restrictive emissions control system, and that there is nothing to do about it. The bike fires right away when i press the starter. Since the problem is not very common (5 times in 3 months) and I know how to deal when it happens, for now it is okay.
I would not change the sprockets, I think it works fine above 3K RPM (yes 3K not 4K).
I am nevertheless, disappointed with the lack of power and speed. I am not saying it is slow, but Ducati claimed 100HP and I was naive and believed them. The bike is way slower than any 600cc jap sportbike.
The actual dyno readings I think are barely above 80HP (big difference with the claimed 100hp)
I will not sell the bike because of this, I like the design, I like the simplicity of the air cooled twin, I like the riding position, and I like how it handles. Moreover, going up the Angeles Crest Hwy is a blast. I am hoping it will keep working for many years to come.
I do have an issue when I upshift from maybe 3rd to 4th or from 4th to 5th. Sometimes when shifting up, the gear does not engage and it goes somehow into neutral, meaning that if twist the gas the revs just go up and no power is transferred. I have to upshift again, and then it engages and everything is back to normal. I am not sure if this is normal (i don't think so) but I am trying to shift quick and hard (the lever) everytime because maybe I am not lifting the lever hard enough? I will post another thread on this topic shortly.
Quote from: Mau on September 04, 2011, 09:58:53 AM
I am nevertheless, disappointed with the lack of power and speed. I am not saying it is slow, but Ducati claimed 100HP and I was naive and believed them. The bike is way slower than any 600cc jap sportbike.
The actual dyno readings I think are barely above 80HP (big difference with the claimed 100hp)
Buying one of these bikes based on power alone is just silly.
I agree 80 is a little bit low but it does feel like it pulls harder than my old M1000. It definitely pulls harder than my honda. Also, it's 100hp at the crank, not the rear wheel. No Dyno is going to tell you crank HP. Comparing an air cooled big bore twin to a liquid cooled 4 is like apples and oranges. A 600 4 banger is going to have more horsepower by default just because of the redline. The EVO redlines at 8500rpm. But the EVO does have much more usable torque and at least for me is much more fun to ride.
I would recomend changing the front sprocket. The bike is geared to high. I can't go below 25mph without slipping the clutch in 1st with the larger sprocket. Also, with the larger sprocket the higher gears are pretty much useless.
Also agree w/ Mau. I've experienced a "non-gear" between shifts, also in the middle-upper gears. Just a few times. To be fair, my Yamaha also had this every now and then; I think it's my not being firm enough on the gear lever.
Power is good enough for me, even under the break-in-period ceiling of 6K RPM at partial throttle.
DucNaked--I see your point; this is sure starting to get expensive! A dilemma I have though--Termi ECU + PC5? If I went the PC5 route, do I even need the Termi ECU??
Howie--~120mi ride today. No stalls today, after having followed your TPS reset procedure. Not sure if that had something to do with it, or just sheer luck, but no stalls! :)
Now I'm noticing that the front brake pads are dragging a bit, specifically on the right side. Left side rotor, I can still see the cross-hatch machining marks on the rotor; the right rotor's a bit shiny and I can't see the cross-hatching. Engine off, and backing into my garage, I can hear a slight dragging sound from the front wheel area.
Sorry to all I i sound like a complete downer, or even maybe a borderline troll. I do love my Evo; I just didn't expect so many niggling items is all!
Bypass getting the term system. Their slip-ons are no better/worse than the other dozens of manufacturers out there.
Use the money from termi package to get power commander/tune and a set of used slipons
You can modify your airbox to flow better than termi's And doesn't cost anything.
A good tune will benefit you more than a slipon exhaust. It will resolve fueling issues and create a better map which means more power..
If you get the pc5 I don't see the point of DP ECU.
Here's what I did. I knew I was going to upgrade my exhaust and filter. I just didn't know what one. I was having some fueling issues I attributed to the closed loop part of the map.
I decided to flash my ECU with a full system, high flow filter, delete the o2 sensors, and raise the rev limit to 9500rpm. I purchased the Rexxer user unit so I could do the flash myself and return the ECU to the stock map if I had to. I ran my M1100s with cored stock cans , dp filter and air box lid. I had this setup for a season until I got my SC Project 2 into 1 full system.
I'm happy with my current set up. And if I want to go to pods and the pc5 with auto tune my ECU is ready to take full advantage of it's features. I don't think I'll do this because my bike runs really good with the current map and I still get almost 50mpg. But you never know [evil]
cheapest/easiest option would be to buy a set of non termi slip ons from pro italia, get the free reflash, get a k&n filter, and open up your airbox. i have termi's on my bike and i can say that the fueling got a whole lot better after i put them in.
also, for the shifting issue... that happens to almost every bike, just gotta be more positive in your shifts. also, everyone here pretty much has a non broken in bike by the mileage listed. things will start to loosen up properly after 2k+ miles generally.
my 796 started to feel a lot better after 3k miles if that's any kind of frame of reference.
Cool. I like the new gameplan: ProItalia re-flash + PC5/auto tune.
Problem is... I think the M1100 Evo is too new--it's not on their application chart! :(
Plus, the pipes I do want, the Boomtubes... also no Evo application! :( :(
There's no pleasing some people. :P
This is true. My wife says I'm hella needy. ;D
Patience was never my forte! :'(
I'm an impatient bastard myself. Although this is my 3rd monster, I have just come of an '09 Daytona 675 and I know some of the differences take some getting used to. Having said that, spending some time on the track helped a bit but honestly trying to make the bike something it's not isn't going to make you happy either.
Here's what I'm doing/have done to mine:
Done:
- Mirrors
- 14t front sproket
- Tail chop
Doing:
- Evotech exhaust hanger (remove passenger pegs)
- Flash spare ECU with increased rev limit (*maybe)
Otherwise, it is what it is to be honest. The exhaust could be a bit louder. I could chop the airbox and core the stock cans too. They'll help a bit but if you want to make this what it isn't you're just going to be unhappy and have a really light wallet. By all means enjoy the thing, tweak it to suit you a bit more but it'll never have the HP of even a 600cc sport bike.
This is my first monster (S2R800) at its highest state of modification:
(http://photos.toshcroft.com/Bikes/2005-04-13-Dans-S2R-Ducati/2006-10-08-Catskills-039/101168306_a4fSB-L.jpg)
And this is my S4RS before I sold it:
(http://photos.toshcroft.com/Bikes/07-Ducati-Monster-S4RS/MDTKside/305713818_BRoZ5-L.jpg)
Steve--great looking Monsters!
I did install the Evotech exhaust hanger and remove the stock pegs--things do look a lot nicer, that's for sure. I'm not wanting for more HP, just more drivability is all.
First service (the 620mi one) is this Saturday. Will see what the dealer says.
Yeah, fair enough. I noticed a slight difference post first service but nothing to jump up and down about. ~1200 miles on it now and a couple of hours on the track. 14t helped the most I think but that really doesn't fix the core issue, it's a bandaid.
Well, kinda bad news. Good news is that the Evo is still under warranty.
Bad news is this... took it to the dealer for its first service. I mentioned the irregular brake wear and drivability concerns I had, and the dealership staff (both sales & service side) were quite polite, and indicated that this quite common for someone who's just come from a Japanese inline-4 (for the drivability part). The service manager mentioned they were able to verify my brake concern. They took the RF caliper off and identified a rather stiff piston. They were able to retract it, but upon reapplication of the brake lever, that same piston became stiff again, as it slid into operating range. Dealer mentioned that it may loosen up over time, as thing break-in. Not ideal, but understandable. I agreed that there is plenty of warranty remaining, so OK.
As I was about to hop back on my bike to go home, the dealer technician took it out for a test ride. He came back shaking his head, chatting w/ the service manager. Tech expressed that he has never on a Monster with such horrible fueling; the other 1100 Monsters and even a couple of the other Evos that they've serviced--never like this.
As such, they're keeping the bike for a bit. I overheard the tech talking with the dealer principal that they'll have to hook up the DDA to get a better understanding of the bike's operation, as there were no fault codes when they scanned the ECM, and that they'll need to send the diagnosis to Ducati for assistance.
Hopefully things will get fixed soon. I'm a bit bummed of course, but it is better to get these things worked out prior to the warranty expiring! [beer]
Good luck man, and this is what the warranty is for.
Wow, what a difference!
Got the bike back. Turns out it was a pinched vacuum line. Dealer replaced said offending line under warranty as well as reflashing the ECM and resetting the TPS.
Night and day!
Engine is far smoother. I can run the tach as low as ~2800RPM and is still quite drivable. Chain snatch is evident below that, but compared to before where I couldn't venture below 4K, it's great. Throttle blips between shifts are quicker & smoother as well--no more stumbling. Apart from the smoother operation of the gearbox (I'm attributing that to the 600mi oil change/service), fuel delivery coming on/off throttle is perfectly seamless. No more throttle snatch (think of a situation say, as you've made a right turn at an intersection and re-applying the throttle). Super smooth. [thumbsup]
At this point, I really do not think I will be going w/ the Termi slip-ons/filter/ECM kit. Driveability is where I want it to be, and the sound that the OE exhaust makes, in terms of volume, I'm good. I still *may* do a sprocket change to further enhance drivability, and that G2 throttle cam thing, but this bike is plenty quick. Sport Rider magazine just arrived on Thursday: 10.89sec @ 119.9xMPH... That's good enough for me. :)
I think. ;D
Glad you got it sorted.
I only put the 14T front sprocket on because 6th was pointless: ~80mph @ 4k RPM.
I agree with you on the stock exhaust.
Yep glad you like it. The G2 will make it even better. As for the termis, they are music to my ears.