The title says it all. How can one get more out of an S2R800 engine. The bike currently has pod filters, a quat-D exhaust and a Techlusion EFI. Not looking to get 100hp out of her but I've heard things like HP pistons or a big bore kit will increase HP. What the best way to get as much out of this durable little engine and what's the potential increase in HP I receive with the upgrade. I could easily go out and buy anS2R or S4 engine and drop her in there, but where would the fun in that be and as much as I like the coffee can rattle sound of a dry clutch, I love the wet clutch.
Thanks for the advice DMFers
I'd research the pods a bit, the more airbox volume the better for twins as a general rule of thumb, though the monster's airbox isn't great -- maybe its bad enough that pods are actually better, I dunno.
Generally more compression and displacement is a good bang-for-buck method of getting more power. CA cycleworks lists 91mm pistons for the monster 800. http://www.ca-cycleworks.com/shop/catalog/ducati/engine.html (http://www.ca-cycleworks.com/shop/catalog/ducati/engine.html) That'd give 859cc and, I'd guess, more compression. With its comparatively short stroke I would think you could get by with quite a bit more compression than is typical of the big case motors.
higher comp pistons would be the way to go. I had... 88mm (I think... it's been a while) FBF pistons that bumped comp to 11:1. they also made a 12:1 set (these are made for the 750/800 motor. I had a 620 and swapped cyls, too).
lighter weight flywheel is another thing you can add. otherwise, port and polish for the heads and a dyno-tune for your bike will get you pretty close to maxed out. not sure what cams are swappable into the small case heads.
also (not HP, but performance related) I hear lighter wheels are great
Quote from: bikepilot on September 06, 2011, 06:41:14 AM
I'd research the pods a bit, the more airbox volume the better for twins as a general rule of thumb, though the monster's airbox isn't great -- maybe its bad enough that pods are actually better, I dunno.
Generally more compression and displacement is a good bang-for-buck method of getting more power. CA cycleworks lists 91mm pistons for the monster 800. http://www.ca-cycleworks.com/shop/catalog/ducati/engine.html (http://www.ca-cycleworks.com/shop/catalog/ducati/engine.html) That'd give 859cc and, I'd guess, more compression. With its comparatively short stroke I would think you could get by with quite a bit more compression than is typical of the big case motors.
I wasn't thrilled with pods when I bought it but I figured with the last setup I had we put holes in the airbox to open it up a bit and let the bike breathe. Thanks for the Ca-Cycleworks link. Will definitely look into going to 859cc.
I agree re the light weight wheels, they can make a huge difference in turning, acceleration and braking.
Re the pistons for the 750, the bore and valve pockets should be the same I think. I dunno if the pin or crown height are the same -- the 750 and 620 have a shorter stroke crank so plausibly could have different piston specs. Worth checking before you buy if you go that route.
Quote from: bikepilot on September 06, 2011, 10:02:18 AM
Re the pistons for the 750, the bore and valve pockets should be the same I think. I dunno if the pin or crown height are the same -- the 750 and 620 have a shorter stroke crank so plausibly could have different piston specs. Worth checking before you buy if you go that route.
620 bore is smaller than 750, same stroke. 800 is the same bore as 750, longer stroke. when I did the 620 I just bought 750 barrels and the FBF pistons, they bolt right on and kept the 620 heads. when I still had my monster I was debating on changing the flywheel and crank to basically make it a hi-comp 800.
:edit: the top end of the 750/800 are identical; piston kits made for 750 fit 800
PM StopinTime
Kopfjager has a M800 with a lot work done to it including a 859 bore and dry clutch conversion. Maybe he will chime in here soon. I believe his motor work was done at DucShop in Atlanta.
Quote from: Travman on September 06, 2011, 11:59:28 AM
Kopfjager has a M800 with a lot work done to it including a 859 bore and dry clutch conversion. Maybe he will chime in here soon. I believe his motor work was done at DucShop in Atlanta.
thought his was a 750
Quote from: MadDuc 20/20 on September 06, 2011, 05:21:26 AMI could easily go out and buy an S2R or S4 engine and drop her in there, but where would the fun in that be
The fun would be found in your wallet. Getting that engine to produce any more
real power would cost a mint and may make it less reliable. Lose the pods and Techlusion gimmick. Cut the airbox and put it back in there with a K&N, then flash the ECU to DP spec. Nothing works as well as a DP chip.
After that perhaps lighten your stock flywheel and get the heads lightly ported but not polished. Then get some lightweight wheels and declare victory. If you look at increasing your power to weight ratio as an exercise in both mild engine work and lightening the chassis, you may not have to go so far either way to satisfy yourself.
Spending a shit-ton on an 800cc wet clutch engine is not the way I would play it. I like the engine and know firsthand how hardy it is but you won't get your money's worth from doing heavy engine mods on it.
It's possible to get nearly 100hp at the crank on the 800.
Is it possible to put 796 (696?) heads on? I'd imagine they'd flow a lot better than the stock 800/695 heads.
696/796 heads are better design, like the DS1000 heads, but...
They use a head gasket, so you'd have to use the cylinders too.
Unfortunately, the base gasket is a different part#, so 696/796 cylinders may not fit the 695/800 crankcases.
Spoke with Chris at Ca-Cycles and turns out that the 859 pistons are no longer being produced and purchasing would cost around $3K. WTF. Thanks for all the insight, keep it coming. Most suggestions have been to locate a S2R1K engine and drop it in the bike. Not that I'm looking to waste cash just curious as to how I can make this S2R unlike any other out there, understanding that the more unique it is the more I might be asking for trouble.
At one point I investigated converting the engine to a dry clutch. Cost was roughly $3K.
Bummer. $3k is way too much though, JE and CP will do custom pistons for much, much less. I think more like $300/ea. JE I think has a minimum order of 4, CP might do just two. A drop-in piston with more compression might be a good move though, especially if the 750 pistons work -- put those in, tidy up the ports, set the squish etc., and I bet you'd have significant gains.
Quote from: bergdoerfer on September 06, 2011, 02:44:07 PM
The fun would be found in your wallet. Getting that engine to produce any more real power would cost a mint and may make it less reliable. Lose the pods and Techlusion gimmick. Cut the airbox and put it back in there with a K&N, then flash the ECU to DP spec. Nothing works as well as a DP chip.
After that perhaps lighten your stock flywheel and get the heads lightly ported but not polished. Then get some lightweight wheels and declare victory. If you look at increasing your power to weight ratio as an exercise in both mild engine work and lightening the chassis, you may not have to go so far either way to satisfy yourself.
Spending a shit-ton on an 800cc wet clutch engine is not the way I would play it. I like the engine and know firsthand how hardy it is but you won't get your money's worth from doing heavy engine mods on it.
QFT.
The bike is plenty powerful as is. Focus your energy and money on getting more comfortable on the bike and learning how to use the power it has. Besides, if you kill ANOTHER Monster we're going to have to revoke your Duc card. There's a lot more performance there to use, learn how to extract it.
Quote from: Artful on September 07, 2011, 07:02:48 AM
QFT.
The bike is plenty powerful as is. Focus your energy and money on getting more comfortable on the bike and learning how to use the power it has. Besides, if you kill ANOTHER Monster we're going to have to revoke your Duc card. There's a lot more performance there to use, learn how to extract it.
I had to look up QFT, never heard that expression before.
I like my Monster Card. As long as no more random BMWs or soccer driving Rover's forget how to park or drive, I should be ok. :'( [bang] I'm just wildly curious as to what it will take to get the most out of the engine. Don't plan on doing the work tomorrow or this winter, just interested in what it would take.
I'll be dong some porting and lightening of the engine over the winter months as well.
I've been eyeing the Pistal High Compression kit, but have not decided if that's worth the hassle.
The chassis needs a lot of work to be able to exploit power increases.
Q
Does anyone know if the 800 crank/rods will work in a 696 case?
The 696/796 share same heads, case, and bore, but 796 has a longer stroke. The 800/796 stroke is the same...
I was wanting to place an 800 crank/rods into 696 engine to basically make it a 796.
Anyone know if this will work?
If so, anyone have an 800 bottom end for sale?
Quote from: DoWorkSon on September 07, 2011, 11:09:03 AM
Does anyone know if the 800 crank/rods will work in a 696 case?
The 696/796 share same heads, case, and bore, but 796 has a longer stroke. The 800/796 stroke is the same...
I was wanting to place an 800 crank/rods into 696 engine to basically make it a 796.
Anyone know if this will work?
If so, anyone have an 800 bottom end for sale?
cross reference part numbers on the pistons and rods and maybe even the cylinders.
there is a 4.4mm difference in deck height. not sure if it's in the cyl, rod or piston or maybe even the head.
If you really want to know what it takes to get Monster power out of the 800 just ask stopintime. He knows. He got close to 100hp at the rear wheel with heavy Kaemna mods :o
However it seems he was too embarrassed to divulge how much he spent. Must have been an assload. As in you could probably upgrade to a Streetfighter S for what he spent on the engine. It's more worthwhile for him however since motorcycles in general are much more expensive in Norway.
For my part, if the engine was running well I'd just lighten the chassis as far as I could within reason. It's all about power to weight. If you were to just get rid of the stock boat anchor wheels you would probably be amazed at the difference.
http://www.ducati-kaemna.de/cms_en/tu_example.htm?&ct=68 (http://www.ducati-kaemna.de/cms_en/tu_example.htm?&ct=68)
seems Kaemna let the cat out of the bag ;)
Quote from: bergdoerfer on September 07, 2011, 12:09:35 PM
If you really want to know what it takes to get Monster power out of the 800 just ask stopintime. He knows. He got close to 100hp at the rear wheel with heavy Kaemna mods :o
However it seems he was too embarrassed to divulge how much he spent. Must have been an assload. As in you could probably upgrade to a Streetfighter S for what he spent on the engine. It's more worthwhile for him however since motorcycles in general are much more expensive in Norway.
For my part, if the engine was running well I'd just lighten the chassis as far as I could within reason. It's all about power to weight. If you were to just get rid of the stock boat anchor wheels you would probably be amazed at the difference.
Just out of curiosity- how much do the stock wheels weigh vs. BST. No way am I dropping $3K only to have them swallowed by a DC pothole, just very curious...
Quote from: MadDuc 20/20 on September 07, 2011, 12:32:56 PM
Just out of curiosity- how much do the stock wheels weigh vs. BST. No way am I dropping $3K only to have them swallowed by a DC pothole, just very curious...
oh you're safe them... I think 2700 ;)
There's a thread in here somewhere with stock wheel weights, they are pretty hefty. I don't know the weight diffs, but shouldn't be hard to find, its a huge difference though. I rode a TLS with dymag carbon wheels and it was a huge difference from my TLS with stock wheels. I don't think the monster's stockers are starting out much lighter than the TLS stockers, if any.
Another mod I'd love to try on the monster would be a high end monoblock 4-pad caliper with a single 330mm rotor. I'm pretty sure it'd have tons of power and enough heat-disappating ability that it'd live a reasonably long life given the monster's relatively megar power and low top speeds. Loosing a rotor and caliper would be decent chunk of weight loss.
Quote from: bikepilot on September 07, 2011, 12:41:19 PM
Another mod I'd love to try on the monster would be a high end monoblock 4-pad caliper with a single 330mm rotor. I'm pretty sure it'd have tons of power and enough heat-disappating ability that it'd live a reasonably long life given the monster's relatively megar power and low top speeds. Loosing a rotor and caliper would be decent chunk of weight loss.
that's a cool idea.
Quote from: MadDuc 20/20 on September 07, 2011, 12:32:56 PM
Just out of curiosity- how much do the stock wheels weigh vs. BST. No way am I dropping $3K only to have them swallowed by a DC pothole, just very curious...
Stock rear wheel 5.7 kg (12.7 lbs)
BST rear wheel 2.4 kg
Even though the price is ridiculous, it's a very exciting mod [Dolph]
Compared to engine mods, BSTs are better cost/value.
Power improvement within reasonable 'investments'.... in my opinion.... open exhaust, DP ECU, fine degreeing cams, PCIII with a Ducati experienced tuner and a Dyno day. Somewhere around 8-10 bhp and 10-12 Nm after this list (compared to stock 800)
You'd have to be married to (only) your bike, stupid, crazy and bored to do what I did to my engine and bike.
It's very very very fun to ride and evokes a lot of interest, but nowhere near sensible.
Quote from: bikepilot on September 07, 2011, 12:41:19 PM
There's a thread in here somewhere with stock wheel weights, they are pretty hefty. I don't know the weight diffs, but shouldn't be hard to find, its a huge difference though. I rode a TLS with dymag carbon wheels and it was a huge difference from my TLS with stock wheels. I don't think the monster's stockers are starting out much lighter than the TLS stockers, if any.
http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=47036.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=47036.0)
Quote from: bikepilot on September 07, 2011, 12:41:19 PM
Another mod I'd love to try on the monster would be a high end monoblock 4-pad caliper with a single 330mm rotor. I'm pretty sure it'd have tons of power and enough heat-disappating ability that it'd live a reasonably long life given the monster's relatively megar power and low top speeds. Loosing a rotor and caliper would be decent chunk of weight loss.
I'm doing pretty much that on a '98 M750.
Standard Brembo 4-pad with CP211 pads on a Brembo snowflake rotor.
Should turn wheels in anger relatively soon....
Quote from: MadDuc 20/20 on September 07, 2011, 12:32:56 PMNo way am I dropping $3K only to have them swallowed by a DC pothole, just very curious...
You're supposed to avoid the potholes. At least that's what I always did. Situational awareness. For example; you see a nasty, deep, sharp-edged hole in the street ahead of you. What you should do in this situation is navigate your motorcycle in such a way that your tires don't roll into or over the hole. I don't believe in unavoidable potholes. They're only unavoidable if the rider is too busy watching his reflection in storefronts to pay attention to the road surface ahead. [thumbsup] Or chicks with big titties
Potholes can swallow stock cast rims up just as easily as fancy carbon ones. It's just not as sad when it happens.
And FYI, it's a myth that BST carbon wheels are fragile. Total myth. They are highly engineered items and quite strong and resilient indeed. I wouldn't hesitate myself.
Quote from: bikepilot on September 07, 2011, 12:41:19 PM
Another mod I'd love to try on the monster would be a high end monoblock 4-pad caliper with a single 330mm rotor. I'm pretty sure it'd have tons of power and enough heat-disappating ability that it'd live a reasonably long life given the monster's relatively megar power and low top speeds. Loosing a rotor and caliper would be decent chunk of weight loss.
I would also do this if I ever got another Monster (an M800 would be my preference). This combined with better wheels would be a huge difference. The only problem I can see is getting a nice front wheel that is only set-up for one rotor...otherwise you'd have to figure out how to make the side without a rotor look pretty despite the mounting locations. :-\
Quote from: teddy037.3 on September 06, 2011, 11:08:36 AM
620 bore is smaller than 750, same stroke. 800 is the same bore as 750, longer stroke. when I did the 620 I just bought 750 barrels and the FBF pistons, they bolt right on and kept the 620 heads. when I still had my monster I was debating on changing the flywheel and crank to basically make it a hi-comp 800.
:edit: the top end of the 750/800 are identical; piston kits made for 750 fit 800
Slight threadjack, but you're maybe one of three people I've read on here that has done a 750 bore kit on a 620. One guy said it wasn't worth it, another couldn't say enough good things. Where might you fall in? Once my suspension is dialed in, I definitely had it in the back of my mind to do the 800 cylinders with the high comp FBF pistons. In your experience, was it worth it? Was it a 'holy shit, the front wheel is coming up', or just a nice stout upgrade? Maybe a total flop?
Quote from: Triple J on September 07, 2011, 03:29:42 PM
I would also do this if I ever got another Monster (an M800 would be my preference). This combined with better wheels would be a huge difference. The only problem I can see is getting a nice front wheel that is only set-up for one rotor...otherwise you'd have to figure out how to make the side without a rotor look pretty despite the mounting locations. :-\
an AL plate with a few bolt holes would do it.
It's the fork arm with the empty brake caliper mount that would look wierd
Quote from: bergdoerfer on September 07, 2011, 02:05:34 PM
You're supposed to avoid the potholes. At least that's what I always did. Situational awareness. For example; you see a nasty, deep, sharp-edged hole in the street ahead of you. What you should do in this situation is navigate your motorcycle in such a way that your tires don't roll into or over the hole. I don't believe in unavoidable potholes. They're only unavoidable if the rider is too busy watching his reflection in storefronts to pay attention to the road surface ahead. [thumbsup] Or chicks with big titties
Potholes can swallow stock cast rims up just as easily as fancy carbon ones. It's just not as sad when it happens.
And FYI, it's a myth that BST carbon wheels are fragile. Total myth. They are highly engineered items and quite strong and resilient indeed. I wouldn't hesitate myself.
[Dolph]