Ducati Monster Forum

I hate and Love riding faster Monster's.......
Went out for a tire scrubbing ride with Andy today.
It was the first hit out after the Stay Upright course, good chance to practice through the RNP.
After a quick stop at Bald Hill Andy offered a swap for a little while.
I think he just wanted me to scrub his tires for him....... But that's fine happy to offer the service.
Ended up riding over the Sea Cliff Bridge along the coast then back up Buli Pass (hit the rev limiter in 2nd out of the right hander...opps) and along the old Princes Hwy to Waterfall.

Many have been reading and know I have been thinking about swapping the 620 for something a little bigger.
I have to say the power is amazing........ the S2R1000 with his Arrows pipes DP ECU and open air box.
It is easy to ride slow as most monsters are but when it comes to getting down to boggie you have to be so much more committed.
Not moving your arse and weight around on the pegs means you can't carry as much corner speed as my 620 IMO.
I was having to move around much more to keep a smooth line, lots of fun for sure but the general riding position did give me twitch in my lower back.
Something that the 620 does not do at all, you can certainly see that she is the entry level machine and meant for the beginner to intermediate rider. Easy to ride slow or fast, if you don't want to move around on it you can still keep it running fast.

Just my little experience of the day, scrubbing Andy's tires and having a blast on a fast Monster compared to my baby Monster.

Thanks for the spin Andy, hope you weren't too worried seeing me fire off into distance and round some corners.

cheers
Matty...

Sounds like you had a whole bunch of fun Matty, does Andy's bike have the standard footpegs ? If not, and he has rearsets, they are adjustable and would alleviate to some extent your lower back problems, also take into account that being on some one else's bike does make you tense up a little, one of the relaxing techniques I have used, was to wiggle your fingers and wiggle your jaw, this relax's the whole upper body when on a bike, quite useful when putting some big distances in, I'm sure as you use your new found techniques things will become a little more natural.






                                             Mmick

Stock rearsets Mmick, my knees felt like they were up round my ears.....
So yeah I guess that could give the lower back some rest with adjustment.
As for relaxed, I'm always relaxed driving or riding anything else.
I have driven some pretty expensive cars and always enjoy it, if your too nervous you never would.

Was a blast, has the mind ticking over again.

I know how you feel, went from a weezy 600 to the 900ss in the same light bike! 3rd gear front wheel hops aloft the ground....
I know hoonin & squiding etc... but dam the power is nice - Chris

Welcome to the dark side Matty! [thumbsup]

Yes mate the S*R range has more of a sports riding position. [moto]

I found the old 900 I had was more upright and I had a problem of scrubbing my boots in the corners.

The S2r has higher pegs and lower bars. Took a little bit to get used to but it is sooo good now.


My 2 cents

Rob.

I reckon you would have been going  :o with that extra power???

Man the first little overtake i did, I was exactly like that  :o Rob.
The 2nd I was  8).
Then up Buli Pass, I was new tires...... Whatever.....
But I tell you from a short little ride I am tired, much more committed to the ride you have to be, says the Jedi in me.

You get used to the power pretty quickly.

After a while you think you need more. [thumbsup]


Rob

Matty my opinion what ever it is worth, keep the monster she's a good girl and will keep you happy day in day out ,and further more you won’t get what she's worth to let her go.

If you have the need for speed go the other 116hp machine it will cater for your adrenalin hits and was designed with a specific application in mind. This way you have the best of both worlds.

IMO you riding capacity is progressing beyond the designed capacity of the 620 monster.

Ok there are some guys that can ride the wheels of them. Im not saying you cant be the fastest and the best on it, Just saying, that level of riding was not on the drawing board when they were designed this machine and its crucial components .this is why there are the other monsters models .

Some use a machine for its intended use and some go beyond its engineered capacity in this case component failure is more likely.

Most use the shifting spanner to turn a nut, and some use it for a hammer, shore it works but was it designed for that.

Just so you know, there's a fundamental law of physics which says you can never carry as much corner speed on someone elses bike...

 [laugh]

big

Rob is correct - I started on a 620, had it for 9 months and did one Turismo and said - I NEEED MORE POWER - so I got a new S2R1000 and loved it heaps. I had it tricked up (rapid bike and all that) and it went hard - I remember following a guy on a 999 in Canbera. He was really amazed as I was on his tail all the time - He would get away when we reached 120k's plus though..... [thumbsup].

Then after another 9 months I upgraded to the S4RS and I really love it! [thumbsup]. DP ECU and Arrow full system and about 140hp is great and it goes hard.....

But if a 1098 naked comes out I may have to sell up and move on.....

As they say - "absolute power corrupts, abousultely". I tend to agree which is why I am really scared of riding the DD16 as I might want one.....

Moral of the story - There is always another bike with more power that you want around the corner so enjoy the one you have and look forward to enjoying your next ride - Take your time in the upgrade process and get what you really want  [thumbsup]

R_usty

PS - The great thing is that a lot of the bling you already have with fit then new monster (seat, mirros, grips, Bagster, etc...).

Very true that is R_usty, the bling can carry over.
I am not rushing into doing a swap just yet, after the ride again this morning and following Tricolore from the turn off to Wisemans all the way to the ferry my humble little 620 more than held it's own all the way there (cows aside).

Vince I will still look for that 116hp machine, seems to me to make sense. It would be two bikes for the cost of an S4RS.
One for the fun on the road and the other for the fun on the track.
I am really enjoying pushing myself and Monster a little further and learning heaps as I go along.

Big, I am never afraid to have a good blat on a different bike. IMO if you ride with a tightened rear muscle then that's when you'll make a mistake.

Thanks for all of your input, I am always looking but still very happy with what I have.

cheers
Matty...

What ever you do Matty just take you time,You have a ride so there is no rush,and there are plenty of test ride out there [moto]

I have no doubt that after riding the Desmosedici and the track I will find the S4RS down on power. but in my opinion they have 2 very different applications .The S4rs will always feel lightning fast on the road, as this is where most of my riding will be done with it  I will be very happy with it

PS.I am having all of my jacket sleeves extended in preparation for the Desmosedici’s 200 hp [cheeky]

Come on now Matty I was perfectly happy to scrub my own tires in! We had gone through most of the twisties by Bald hill.  They actually felt better than the old ones from the moment we left Flywheels. I'm very happy with the Michelins. I just wanted to get a different perspective of a different lighter bike and yours certainly feels like it has a lot less mass. Indeed a very different riding experience. Thanks for the ride. :)

Andy

It's interesting - according to the Ducati website there's only 10kg of difference (168kg for an 06 620 vs 178kg for an 08 S2R1000), so your bike with a mostly empty tank is probably lighter than Mattys with a full tank. My guess is you're probably "feeling" the difference between a 180 and 160 width rear tire, and possibly the 60 profile front on the 620 compared to the 70 profile on the 1000 if you're both running "stock" sizes.

I suspect _some_ people would notice a 10kg weight difference, but I've gotta admit I've never filled my tank up (which takes 12 or 13kg of fuel) and then got on it and though "My god, I can't believe how different this is handling!", on the other hand though I can _always_ feel the difference between worn out tires and brand new tires, even if they're exactly the same brand and model. Having said that, I'm still not sure if I'm kidding myself when I think I can feel a noticeable difference between a 120/160 set of tires and the 110/150 I like to run instead...

rambling-big

Big
I did wonder about that myself. Where is the weight difference... both bikes have very similar frame , similar wheels (ok mine is a slightly wider rear I believe? or is it just a wider tyre) , similar engine mass? or are the castings physically smaller on a 620 or do they just have more meat around the bores?  , gearbox I would imagine fairly similar , suspension , tank , ....etc etc etc
But no denying Mattys bike instantly feels lighter to just sit on and move around under you.
Then to jump back on mine , you can instantly feel a more solid mass of a bike under you.

Andy 

I also think there are other things at play here such as where the weight rests - and by that I mean the rider. I definitely feel like I am sitting higher and flatter on my S2R compared to the Boss' 620. Plus I am guessing Andy's clutch is heavier which could have a psychological effect on the way you feel you are working.

... and I don't think Matty is running a standard profile anymore?

I'm not as familiar with newer bikes, but assuming things are similar to the '99 vintage I'm more informed about, I suspect you'll find that the frame and swingarm are identical (as in the exact same part number), the bigger bike runs a 1" wider rear wheel. The bodywork, electrics, controls, lights, front end etc are almost all the same, so probably 80 - 90% of the weight difference will be in the engine. The "small motors" (600s, 620s, 750s, and 800s) all run a smaller bolt pattern than the 900 and 1000cc motors, and I'm pretty sure that's also indicative of smaller case castings as well (rather than just different final machining). There's some external dimentions that are the same across big and small motors though, the engine mounts are all identical, the front sprockets end up in the same place. The bigger bores and longer strokes imply larger/heavier cylinders, pistons, rods, and crank, but I wouldn't expect a noticeable increase in the cylinder head weight, although those heads will be a little higher up, which might make them _feel_ heavier.


Oh, no question at all - I was never doubting you on that. I was just thinking aloud about what it is that we "feel" as "weight", and that it's likely to be more about the tires than the actual mass difference between the two bikes.

big

Swing arm on these two are definitely not identical .... but dunno about the weight?

And seat height will change the feel with the 620 lowest as stock and no adjustment in the connector rod thingy.

Ahh, good catch, I keep forgetting some of you people have single sided swingarms!

I guess that'd add a bit of weight, both from the extra strength needed to resist the twisting forces as well as the more complex hub assembly. That kinda makes sense, I was trying to work out quite where 8 or 9 kgs was gonna come from just in the motor.

(and now to show I don't know what I'm talking about, the '05 1000 with the dual sided swingarm is quoted as 2kg _heavier_ at 180kg than the 08 S2R1000)

big

Matty, you ride your 620 very well and I do feel that you would be faster on a quicker bike but I don't forget you are very familiar with your ride. I have only done 1400k's on mine so I am still feeling my way. You can certainly ride the corners well and when you consider that there is a limit to the speed you are likely to take into an unfamiliar corner (unless insanity provails). I agree with Doc, you can keep the pace up on the road, if you want to go faster consider a track bike for the real speed. If with the adreniline pumping you still want to go faster on the road then consider a bigger monster.
MY 2c

ask yourself why buy a differrent bike, are you going to do track days , what offers more comfort , cost of maintanice and so on people ask me why the s2r why not the s4r for me its boiled down to two things i dont like the water cooled look in a naked bike but the biggest thing i liked about the s2r was the talk was lower down, be for any one flames me  i dont ride tracks, i dont ride at high speed , but i do ride tight twisties and arfter testing both bikes  the s2r 1000 does all i want it to do and i could afford a new one oposed to a second hand s4r thats just me ,we are all different all have different taste  wich is a good thing, thats the bike i ride and im happy , i no thers farster ,more powerfull ducs out there but they  are only a  dream but the bottom line is its a ducati and to me thats all that matters cheers bazz [moto]

Big, keep rambling mate...very good thoughts! scientifically it doesn't make a lot of sense does it?

and Matty....here's one for you to smile about....

I'm off to go play and try and work out why an exhaust, airbox, ecu system that is meant to be an holistic approach is giving me such a painfully lean (I suspect) ride...

(http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/896/3536/1600/card340.jpg)

Bazz, you can smile at that one too!

i like that spyder  [clap] [thumbsup]

No need to convince me mate! When I'm not enjoying my clapped out (199,910km old), asthmatic air cooled 2 valve 750 Monster, almost certainly less power than Matty's getting from his 620, I choose to ride my Honda Spada which has about half as much power.

I'm still fully aware that my bikes are both more capable than my riding (even my little 250), but I have a barrel of fun riding either of them (and, when I'm being honest with myself, there's a great deal of satisfaction in keeping up with people when you're riding clearly "inferior" machinery). I'm not going to try and claim I'm not jealous of Vinces impending new ride and it's ~200hp, but I certainly don't let the existence of machines like that reduce the pleasure I get riding mine...

big

Don't mind that graph Spider, especially considering our car has somewhat less than 20hp (and that was when it was new) ... and I am also one of the small monster brigade.

As to the difference between the weight of the thousands (and I am just talking off the top of my head here) : when did the plastic tank come in? also the marchesini wheels I would assume may be lighter on the S2R?

On the road there's not a huge difference between bikes, other than the rider. I go riding with a guy on an SV650. He is a small guy, so the bike suits, but I have a hard time keeping up to him in the twisties, simply because he is a better rider, and fortunatley I have learnt (and am still learning) from him.

The other weekend I was followig Madalf down the Chum Creek road on his S2R800, he probably has a better power to weight ratio than me on my S4R  :P ,OK maybe not, but when it came to the corners, i could not shove my bike past him 'cos we were both at limit where we were comfortable , and also have that little bit in reserve in case the situation got sticky. However I'm sure (i Hope) the more powerful bike would have made a difference on the track.

Having said that, the S4R just makes me quiver on full throttle, damn it's fast out of the corner.....

Yeah gotta agree Dos. I am not likely to ever use my bikes potential, but Daing its fun to give it a wrist full when you get the opportunity.

Hey Matty,

A lot of great info in this thread - One thing  that you may want to consider is the Turismo. I would expect that after you have done one Turismo you will want to go every year - It is addictive.

The reason I bring this up is that I rode my first Turismo on a 620 and I can tell you that after day 1 (or should I say 1 hour into day 1) I wanted a bigger bike. Not because it has more power but because a bigger bike can cruise better at speed. When you do the Turismo you will understand what I mean. However, the other beauty of the Turismo is that you always find a group of people riding at 'your' speed when 300 odd bikes are following the same route - a good way to meet people.

Anyway, just a thought.....

Hey ditto on tricolore's comment. I too only ride a fraction of my S4RTs capabilities......
But man what a rush I get from that fraction I tap into....
And that is what it is all about....
I too shall venture to more training days and get to ride that little bit more smoother.....
Watching you ride on those magic Michelins you have turned it up a notch......
Just watch Big Ian on the Sparda and you can appreciate that power isn't everything.....
Matty you are going to love what ever you ride..... Just some more than others.....

Thanks all for the there input and thoughts, I thought this might be a good place for all of us to discuss our different Monster's
past and current. I am very happy with my 620, yes I would like a little more power sometimes but only out of a slower corner.
The Stay upright course has given me a new lease as I am sure the Superbike school will continue that.
Power doesn't always mean you can use it and the more I ride the more I discover that.

This was the first time I had "really" ridden a bigger engined Monster, I did have a spin on Doc's S4RS a little while back, but I was a little shy on that.
I just kinda cruised on it. As Andy said and R_usty & Doc will a-test to riding the 620 is a breeze, not much effort is required but if you want to put effort in you still get the reward. However I found that riding the bigger bike if you wanted to lean on it for the twisty's you needed to put some effort in as in getting off the bike.

Andy you know I was just  ;D ;D at helping you scrub the new tires, I did very much appreciate the spin gave me lots to think about especially heading out the next morning and having a good go at putting new lessons into practice.
R_usty I am heading down for Tourismo so it will be interesting to see what my experience will be compared to you.
And yes Tricolore I am looking at a track machine, nothing new another pre-loved bike of the same vintage as mine.

With regard to the weight difference I know it's not much being just 10kg's or so but think of it this way you'd notice the difference if you had a backpack or some sort of bag on your bike with 10kg's in it. Along with the change in riding position it changes your mental focus, the 620 is so relaxed where as the S*R model as Rob said is far more sport orientated.
It has been an interesting few days thinking about this especially that I am also thinking about a 2nd bike.
Still thinking no decisions yet, it took me 12yrs to buy a Monster so it may be a while before there is a change in the garage.

Thanks again for all the input and experience of everyone's Monster ownership.

Late to post, but thought I would add my experiences.

After I was told my M800 #1 was not coming back, I started thinking about a new bike, and instantly went looking for bigger bikes - 900's and 1000's. Whilst I like the SSS, I was not a huge fan of the S2R for other reasons, and at the time it came in only the 803cc variant. So it was M900 or M1000 for me.

Interesting to note, I was not looking for more power, but rather I had a bad case of dry clutch envy (I'm all better now thanks!) . Anyway, ended back on a M800 and very happy about it. I had become a fan of Brad Black's work, and he had always rated the 803cc as a good motor, so I kinda thought I should stick to a good thing.

Back to Mattys perceptions, I think that big is right - it's probably got more to do with the size of the rubber than the weight of the bike. I noted quite a difference between 60 and 70 profile front rubber when I swapped on my last change, and I've been told that the wider rear tyre of the bigger bikes makes them harder to tip in - perhaps that's what you were feeling when you say that you need to work the bike more.

Interesting note that Ducmobrob had about the differences in posture between the classic and S*R models - I had not ridden a S*R long enough to notice. In any case, I'm a fan of the classic monster styling, and with the adjustable rearsets, it suits be just fine... I have been contemplating mucking round with both risers and lower (clip on) setups, but not sure if this is going to be a waste of time. My riding style gets better (to me anyway) when I have more over the front wheel pointing me towards clipons, but I think that for the distance I like to ride, it's probably not a wise move.

So what you think? Risers, clipons, do nothing? Right now, I'm erring towards the latter, but hey open for suggestions!
 

Here's something for you to think about Matty... Or you want Bigger ???
http://www.motorcycledisposals.com.au/Bikes/Bikes%20Pages/5120SW%20695M/5120SW%20695M.htm (http://www.motorcycledisposals.com.au/Bikes/Bikes%20Pages/5120SW%20695M/5120SW%20695M.htm)

Very late to post....I've got nothing to say anyway.  :P

Might go through the whole thread before saying anything.  [coffee]


Nick, I know for me, I think risers would make the bike a bit more touchy, I don't know if that's the right analogy. But when I went from the stock bars to my current SM bars, they made a world of difference. They were a little uncomfortable at first, was getting numb fingers and sore wrists after only about a 1/2 hour riding, but I've got used to them and I've adjusted my posture to suit, i.e slouch and relax your arms which I was guilty of not doing. Next time we are out, you'll have to give 'em a try. [thumbsup]

There wasn't much difference between the 620 and 695, I even heard the 695 was slower?

I agree super if your going to upgrade for performance reasons you need to go the whole hog and get what you really want, you will never be happy with a compromise [thumbsup]

Yeah agree, if I was swapping it'd be for more than what the 695 offers.
I don't think there'd be enough gain going to 695 and if it is true that it was a slower feeling bike than 620 not much point.

Thanks for the heads up on it but I'll sit pretty on mine for a while.
That is until I see what the bigger Monster is going to look like??? 

I was talking about as a track bike.  ??? Its a write off! cheap bike and no shortage of knowledge on spares and mods here thats all. Maybe keep an eye out for a bigger cc machine.

Oh, sorry didn't get that.
Thanks, i'll keep my eye on it.

Oh, that is what you meant. I thought oyu were thinking of getting the motor out of it and putting it into Matty's bike.

Carry on.  :P

Cool! Just a thought.