Ok, I know this is potentially a big can-of-worms topics. But I'm putting it up here as it's locally relevant and CAM seems to be able to handle it's shit better than the more trafficked section.
To make sure my due diligence is done, and I don't seem like I'm making up stuff - I will cite:
http://www.dcsportbikes.net/forum/f19/rnr-cycles-so-we-hired-felon%85-71830/ (http://www.dcsportbikes.net/forum/f19/rnr-cycles-so-we-hired-felon%85-71830/)
- The topic starter is one of the owners of RnR. For those who can't bother to read it, they are letting the world at large know that they have hired a fellow who has been convicted for stealing motorcycles.
I'm of mixed feelings on this. Yes people can change. Good on them fro giving someone a 2nd chance. But hiring someone to a business that has specialty tools/access/info that would make committing a crime they have been convicted of easier doesn't seem so bright.
So there it is. Discuss... but please keep it civil.
I am all for giving people a second chance after they have served their sentences.
If they have done something violent, I might have a different thought.
But with this much scrutiny, and as miserable as prison is, and as shitty of a job market as we have, one has to imagine he is grateful to have a job.
sounds like it is a "buyer beware" kind of situation...but I am glad the shop is being pro-active in trying to harness the backlash upfront...which means for at least the intial 1st full season in bloom they will be hopefully watching him like a hawk and looking for reports on ANYTHING funky or out of the blue from their client base....
I tried to help people twice, and twice they ended up stealing from my business. Small sample size, I know, but sadly a 100% failure rate.
If I really needed to get my bike serviced there, it would think about towing it in without tag, giving them my porn name, fake telephone number, and paying cash.
it doesn't take an ex-con to do ill
http://www.cnbc.com/id/45359089 (http://www.cnbc.com/id/45359089)
there will always be people looking to scam/steal.
and even though some of them are recidivists, there has to be some way for them to re-integrate into society.
as sucky as it is, he "only" stole bikes. he wasn't a murderer, rapist or child molester. and maybe he did it for bad reasons -- greed -- but being locked up is not a cakewalk.
I'm all for second chances too, but c'mon man. Don't you think he's lost his right to work on motorcycles or do anything motorcycle related? If he wants to do some other kind of job that's fine, but he shouldn't be allowed near a motorcycle unless he is riding his own bike.
I think it's careless for RnR to hire him. And it's kind of a slap in the face to the rest of the motorcycle community. This guy didn't steal one bike. He stole a bunch of bikes and befriended various people in the motorcycle community in order to do so. Considering how supportive the motorcycle community tends to be of one another, I think he shouldn't have a right to be considered a part of that anymore. And there's my two cents folks.
Quote from: ducatiz on November 22, 2011, 11:13:52 AM
I am all for giving people a second chance after they have served their sentences.
If they have done something violent, I might have a different thought.
But with this much scrutiny, and as miserable as prison is, and as shitty of a job market as we have, one has to imagine he is grateful to have a job.
pedophiles and sociopaths are genetically hardwired to commit their crimes.
bike thieves are just bike lovers who forgot what is right and wrong, or who let their greed take over.
I'm no panty-waist when it comes to law and order, but if we punish people and then don't let them re-integrate into society, what's the point? we should just shoot everyone for minor crime if we aren't going to let them re-integrate into society.
put it this way: the guy knows a lot about motorcycles. do we expect him to go back and relearn something else now? does anyone really think he has the money and time to do that?
again, it's a motorcycle. it's not a child's life or something like that. he served his time. now that he's working, they have to keep a watch on him to prove himself -- and he has to prove he's worth the trust .
otherwise, all this nonsense about being tough on crime is garbage, because we will be punishing someone for life over theft.
I'm not sure if I have completely processed this story but here are my initial thoughts:
1) The universe doesn't owe this guy a second chance, but if one is in position to receive it, please don't waste it. The owners have risked their reputation and business for this human being.
2) How does hiring a former bike thief help RnR? Couldn't they find a capable mechanic without the baggage?
3) The displayed transparency should be applauded - it couldn't have been an easy decision but it was the ethical choice.
4) There's no way I would take my bike their if I was a victim.
5) I hope there's a relatively happy ending to this story - there's too much pain in the world already!
Mixed feelings here as well.
On one side I wish the guy well, and plaud RnR for hiring him. I really believe/hope in rehabilitation!
On the other hand, I can't help wonder if he'll fall back in his old ways, and I understand how people whose trust has been betrayed probably feel about him... :-\
Quote from: gwjcat on November 22, 2011, 01:36:11 PM
2) How does hiring a former bike thief help RnR? Couldn't they find a capable mechanic without the baggage?
can't comment on the rest, but in my experience only 1 out of 2 bike mechanics is worth a shit.
maybe he really has a talent with the bikes...
Maybe he does have a talent, but that doesn't mean he should be allowed to work on bikes. Maybe he should figure out how to harness those talents in another industry.
You mentioned pedophiles earlier. What there is a teacher that is a pedophile? Maybe that person was the greatest teacher to ever live. Do you think they should be able to teach after coming out of jail.......? Someone in that DCSB thread mentioned Michael Vick. He was given a second chance to play football which is good for him. I'm sure he knows a lot about animals, but that doesn't mean he should be able to be a veterinarian.
I'm all for rehabilitation of criminals. I just don't think they should be able to work in a field that they so took advantage of in the past. I'm no Mother Teresa so I'm not go to sit here and judge anyone who has done something wrong in the past, but the guy didn't steal one bike. Apparently he stole
50. You really think he deserves a second chance in the
MOTORCYCLE industry?
Quote from: ducatiz on November 22, 2011, 01:37:40 PM
can't comment on the rest, but in my experience only 1 out of 2 bike mechanics is worth a shit.
maybe he really has a talent with the bikes...
Quote from: 696DCRider on November 22, 2011, 01:47:18 PM
Maybe he does have a talent, but that doesn't mean he should be allowed to work on bikes. Maybe he should figure out how to harness those talents in another industry.
OKAY...so play god for a minute and you tell us what he should do now for a living then?...and where, while you are at it....go ahead and play the devil's advocate and run out an idea on the yardarm as it were...
I have no idea. Even people that haven't been to prison have problems figuring things like that out. That's up to him. I have a friend who has been in prison for the past 6 years. I don't know what he will do when he is released either. That's why some people pick up trades while in prison. More power to the guy if he actually got a shop to hire him. That's up to him and the shop. There's really nothing I can do about it other than not do business at RnR.
Quote from: zooom on November 22, 2011, 01:51:50 PM
OKAY...so play god for a minute and you tell us what he should do now for a living then?...and where, while you are at it....go ahead and play the devil's advocate and run out an idea on the yardarm as it were...
there is a world of difference in pedophiles and bike thieves.
most people who have both kids and bikes can tell you this.
a bike is a fungible, inanimate object. it can be replaced.. yes, yes, you put all that work into your bike and it sucks to have it stolen, but .. it's still just a piece of metal and plastic.
50 motorcycles? Is that all? he must have been doing this on the side.
The NYPD broke up a ring in NYC about 10 years ago. 3 guys. They had stolen about 2000 bikes over 3 years in the tri-state area. When they busted them, they found over 30 bikes in a warehouse being parted down.
Quote from: 696DCRider on November 22, 2011, 01:47:18 PM
Maybe he does have a talent, but that doesn't mean he should be allowed to work on bikes. Maybe he should figure out how to harness those talents in another industry.
You mentioned pedophiles earlier. What there is a teacher that is a pedophile? Maybe that person was the greatest teacher to ever live. Do you think they should be able to teach after coming out of jail.......? Someone in that DCSB thread mentioned Michael Vick. He was given a second chance to play football which is good for him. I'm sure he knows a lot about animals, but that doesn't mean he should be able to be a veterinarian.
I'm all for rehabilitation of criminals. I just don't think they should be able to work in a field that they so took advantage of in the past. I'm no Mother Teresa so I'm not go to sit here and judge anyone who has done something wrong in the past, but the guy didn't steal one bike. Apparently he stole 50. You really think he deserves a second chance in the MOTORCYCLE industry?
I understand there is a world of difference between those two. I wasn't implying that they are the same. All I'm saying is that people absolutely should lose their right to do certain things when they abuse it.
Quote from: ducatiz on November 22, 2011, 02:00:50 PM
there is a world of difference in pedophiles and bike thieves.
most people who have both kids and bikes can tell you this.
a bike is a fungible, inanimate object. it can be replaced.. yes, yes, you put all that work into your bike and it sucks to have it stolen, but .. it's still just a piece of metal and plastic.
50 motorcycles? Is that all? he must have been doing this on the side.
The NYPD broke up a ring in NYC about 10 years ago. 3 guys. They had stolen about 2000 bikes over 3 years in the tri-state area. When they busted them, they found over 30 bikes in a warehouse being parted down.
Quote from: 696DCRider on November 22, 2011, 02:09:31 PM
I understand there is a world of difference between those two. I wasn't implying that they are the same. All I'm saying is that people absolutely should lose their right to do certain things when they abuse it.
so here is a question...
if said ex-con wanted to start a motorcycle dealership, would you want to pass a law that says he can't run a dealership?
it just doesn't make sense to prevent him from trying.
you have the right to avoid him and his business, but to take away his right to earn a living with (what may be) the only thing he knows? i think the bar has to be pretty high for that, and if we are talking about motorcycles versus kids or any other kind of sexual predator target, there is no comparison.
i mean, what if he was a car thief? can he no longer work at a car shop?
what if he was a gum thief? can he no longer chew gum?
Quoting "{Salva}" from the DCSB forum:
well...it's like having this guy
(http://images.wikia.com/muppet/images/f/f4/CookieMonster-Sitting.jpg)
work here
(http://www.vegalleries.com/commopc/43keeb.jpg)
[laugh]
I think the real issue here isn't hiring an ex-thief (which apparently is the best way to keep them from relapsing), rather that this guy would be working on the current bikes of people he stole from in the past.
Quote from: The Mad King Peepee' on November 22, 2011, 02:17:13 PM
I think the real issue here isn't hiring an ex-thief (which apparently is the best way to keep them from relapsing), rather that this guy would be working on the current bikes of people he stole from in the past.
seems he would know those bikes far better than any others..
Quote from: ducatiz on November 22, 2011, 02:15:53 PM
so here is a question...
if said ex-con wanted to start a motorcycle dealership, would you want to pass a law that says he can't run a dealership? No, because I hate laws. What I could do though, is not support it because it's my right.
it just doesn't make sense to prevent him from trying.
you have the right to avoid him and his business, but to take away his right to earn a living with (what may be) the only thing he knows? i think the bar has to be pretty high for that, and if we are talking about motorcycles versus kids or any other kind of sexual predator target, there is no comparison. I never said I'm going to march down there and demand that he quits. I just expressed my discontent with their decision.
i mean, what if he was a car thief? can he no longer work at a car shop?
what if he was a gum thief? can he no longer chew gum? Yes. This was exactly my point. All gum thieves must pay for their crimes to society.
lol
Thanks for the heads-up SP. If anything goes missing I know where I'll check first and I won't be doing any business with RnR - don't want my name, addy etc available to the scumbag. Plenty of other places around and it isn't worth the risk imo. Is it possible he's turned around and is truly reformed? Sure, likely? No. RnR is of course perfectly free to hire him and he's apparently free to work for them. As a general rule I think it unwise to employ people with a history of criminal activity an a manner that would make further, similar activity easier and more accessible. Working on bikes all the time would seem to increase this guy's opportunity to steal bikes again - just seeing bikes and customers he'll know who has what, probably be able to get their address and will likely already know whether the bike has an alarm, lojack, etc.
Quote from: bikepilot on November 25, 2011, 10:51:53 AMAs a general rule I think it unwise to employ people with a history of criminal activity an a manner that would make further, similar activity easier and more accessible. Working on bikes all the time would seem to increase this guy's opportunity to steal bikes again - just seeing bikes and customers he'll know who has what, probably be able to get their address and will likely already know whether the bike has an alarm, lojack, etc.
Kinda like a bar hiring recovering alcoholics. It would seem like the temptation to re-enter a pattern of behavior would be too great, especially given the knowledge of which bikes are the easiest targets and where they are garaged.
So this guy's working at a shop who's giving him a second chance. I would like to think they talked with him about it and I'm guessing he explained everything and that he's truly sorry. I'm sure they thought long and hard with the decision to hire this guy. While the bike community is small, I also that we were a bit more of a let bygones be bygones.
If the guy stole my bike i would've been pretty pissed too but I also carry insurance on my bike for theft due to living in downtown atlanta and only being able to park it on the street. So I would have received monies from the insurance company for my loss and got another bike. If I found out he worked at a shop in my area that I go to I may actually talk to him and see what he's like now. If he seemed like a decent guy, I may even tell him that mine was one of the bike and I would assume he would feel a lot of shame and offer an apology.
If bikes start getting stolen, he's going to be the first person questioned anyway and the shop should have insurance on the bikes that are there, right? I think the shop owners are trying to do by right by giving the guy a second chance. They're also putting a lot of risk on doing this so I would do what I could to support them for trying to do that.
lets back up a step here on this....and pt some perspective...
when did he go to jail and when did he get out? and what if any restitution has he done since getting out? pieces like these can make a world of difference in opinion as to why RnR even considered hiring this guy...
Quote from: Steve.In.Atlanta on November 25, 2011, 07:25:21 PM
If bikes start getting stolen, he's going to be the first person questioned anyway and the shop should have insurance on the bikes that are there, right? I think the shop owners are trying to do by right by giving the guy a second chance. They're also putting a lot of risk on doing this so I would do what I could to support them for trying to do that.
this.
if anything, hiring him just makes him suspect #1 if anything goes funky.
Quote from: zooom on November 26, 2011, 05:19:33 AM
lets back up a step here on this....and pt some perspective...
when did he go to jail and when did he get out? and what if any restitution has he done since getting out? pieces like these can make a world of difference in opinion as to why RnR even considered hiring this guy...
good questions.
From what I gather (probably 4th hand info so take it FWIW) he was locked up for about a year and got out fairly recently and currently owes about half a million in restitution. I think he was stealing bikes as recently as early '09, but again not even close to FHE here. Also word on DCN is that he's been joking about the bikes he stole and laughing at the folks who's bikes he nabbed (allegedly about 80 bikes in the DC-metro area). Also not FHE, just what other folks have posted, but no obvious reason that they'd have made it up.
If my shop hired the guy who stole my bike I'd consider it a pretty big make the beast with two backs you (which some folks in that thread certainly had happen). His salary to partly pay his restitution to me or my insurance company for my bike isn't coming from my $ for current bike work.
I didn't pull his history in VA, but his MD record would check him off my hire list.
Quote from: Steve.In.Atlanta on November 25, 2011, 07:25:21 PM
If the guy stole my bike i would've been pretty pissed too but I also carry insurance on my bike for theft due to living in downtown atlanta and only being able to park it on the street. So I would have received monies from the insurance company for my loss and got another bike. If I found out he worked at a shop in my area that I go to I may actually talk to him and see what he's like now. If he seemed like a decent guy, I may even tell him that mine was one of the bike and I would assume he would feel a lot of shame and offer an apology.
True... But whose premiums go up whenever a claim is filed? The insurance company has to get someone to pay.
Well it's my understanding that the guy that hired him isn't exactly clean from his Fast Lane Cycle days, don't know that for sure just what I was told when things went belly-up. - Gene