Changed her oil last weekend and decided to replace/upgrade her spark plugs to Iridium IX (NGK DCPR8EIX). I took her out for a test run afterward and she did just fine (ambient temperature was around 60 °F). I took her out again this morning but to my surprise it took her about 10 cranks to start and maintain idling (the ambient temperature was around 30 °F, and yes, I did follow the owner manual cold start procedure). I tried to start her up again just an hour ago and the same thing happened (ambient temperature was also around 30 °F). Good thing I still kept her old OEM plugs so waited about an hour and put them back on, and she started on the first crank and maintained idling without any hesitation. What a waste of time, effort and $14.98!
2010 Monster 696 ABS
Ahhhh...the pleasures of having an Italian mistress. They're as temperamental as a pretty girlfriend but they will keep you on your toes. [thumbsup]
Note to self: Unless you plan to put 100,000 miles on your duc, you may as well stick with your OEM plugs.
Copied and pasted from the ducati.org site - Regarding the use of platinum and iridium spark plugs in a Ducati:
Platinum or iridium plugs will give you worse performance than a conventional plug unless you use a larger gap than is recommended for the steel electrode plug equivalent. One by-product (and benefit) to having platinum or iridium as an electrode material is that the harder material erodes more slowly and consequently allows you to reduce the size of the center electrode and still have a long-lifetime plug. Re-gapping is infrequent or eliminated. In fact, the initial reason this type of plug was developed was an attempt to meet the 100,000-mile durability/maintenance requirement mandated by the US EPA for exhaust emissions, not because they offered any improved performance over conventional electrodes.
A smaller electrode, however, will arc at a lower voltage. This is good because the lower arc-over voltage is not as demanding on your less-than-new ignition coils and wires so the firing is more reliable. But this is also bad because a lower arc-over voltage presents a weaker spark kernel (lower arc current and duration) that is less likely to light off the air/fuel mixture.
Consequently, dyno testing shows a performance gain with specialty plugs only when their intrinsically lower arc-over voltage has allowed users to increase the plug gap above that possible with conventional steel electrode plugs. A larger plug gap needs a higher arc-over voltage to fire, and a larger gap, combined with good plug wires and coils, will span more fuel molecules resulting in a more reliable burn with fewer misfires. So you get better throttle response. Not more power mind you, better throttle response.
The transition between throttle positions involves a wide range of fuel/air mixtures and the ability to fire these less-than-ideal mixtures with a minumum of misfires is what throttle response is all about.
When it comes to spark plug gaps, bigger IS better. The larger the spark kernel that is generated by a spark jumping the electrode gap, the more likely and complete the fuel burn will be, and the smoother the engine will run. That is, the larger the spark gap that's exposed to the air/fuel mixture, the easier it is to initiate combustion. This translates directly into improved throttle response.
Conversely, I have seen several examples of Ducati throttle response problems cured by replacing platinum/iridium plugs that were gapped too small (i.e. the 0.024 in. Ducati recommends for conventional plugs.) Both NGK and Denso pre-gap their Ducati application specialty plugs to 0.035 in. This should be considered a minimum gap for this kind of plug.
If you have a older bike, you may arc-over the plug wires before you can fire an optimized larger plug gap. If the spark plug wires have inadequate insulation, the wire cannot maintain a high enough voltage across the insulation and will arc to ground before firing the plug gap. The factory spark plug leads are stranded wire covered with an EPDM jacket and although the wire itself will last a long time, the insulating jacket will start to break down after a couple of years which is why most good aftermarket wire is insulated with silicone.
If this becomes a problem, replace the stock spark plug wires with a set of Magnecor or similar quality wires. This will allow running a larger plug gap without a concern for insulating the higher voltage needed to jump the gap. Ducati Superbike Magnecor #2549 wires, for example, run $67.
For street bikes, you should use carbon core wires, preferably carbon wires with a spiral wrap center conductor. Straight, multi-stranded, unshielded wire conductors offer theoretical gains resistance-wise, but produce lots of electromagnetic interference (EMI). One major concern is with the computer found used on fuel injected bikes since the radiated EMI can interfere with the computer and corrupt sensor and internal signals which can affect engine performance and reliability. This concern also extends to the use of non-resistor type spark plugs.
For older Super Sport bikes, Dynacoil replacement coils are also available and a recommended upgrade.
Iridium plugs are a gimmick and a total waste of money IMO. I even broke down once because of them. They were NGKs.
Ignore the marketing, use copper plugs, and enjoy not having ignition problems.
Great article supperduc! I have been running Iridiums in my BSA Gold Stars which are notoriously hard starting. I am going to rethink that now.
I put Iridium Spark plugs in several months ago have been very happy with the results. The article you quoted says the plugs are good just make sure your gap is correct.
Health, I think the issue with iridium plugs is cold start when ambient temperature is around freezing. IMO, the iridium electrodes are just too narrow to produce large enough sparks to start a fire when the combustion chamber is still cold. Good point about re-gaping the plugs to 0.035 in. Did you re-gap yours?
Iridium plugs are neither a gimmick or a waste of money. Simply a matter of the correct plug for the correct application. Platinum and iridium plugs became popular with auto manufacturers in the late '70s to cut both emissions and extend maintenance intervals. This was used alongside more potent ignition systems like GM's High Energy Ignition, capable of producing as high as 40K volts, compared to the 18-20K available from conventional ignition. Gaps were also sometimes as wide as .060'', as compared to the more usual .035" gap. This change also required using larger distributor caps to prevent cross arcing and fatter ignition wires. Larger gaps will give you better starting and idle in any engine. This is true for any engine. The problem is the wide gap may fail to fire correctly at higher RPM, particularly at high load.
Credit to the person who wrote the article on the other board would be a nice thing to do. The article is accurate and well written, though I do think Ducati, as well as most European manufacturers use the optimum secondary ignition wire, solid core with resistors.
Quote from: supperduc on December 29, 2011, 06:51:50 AM
Health, I think the issue with iridium plugs is cold start when ambient temperature is around freezing. IMO, the iridium electrodes are just too narrow to produce large enough sparks to start a fire when the combustion chamber is still cold. Good point about re-gaping the plugs to 0.035 in. Did you re-gap yours?
I started my bike up in 30ºF temp the other day and it started right up. I hadn't rode my bike in a couple weeks and had no problem. According to NGK the DCPR8EIX gap is 0.031. So that is pretty close to the 0.035 the article suggests. I did not gap mine or even check them before putting them in. I just threw them in and have been happy since. I never even read about having a bigger gap until this tread. I'm not sure why your bike didn't like them.
Adjusted the gap to 0.035 and she started and maintained idle on the first crank. Ambient temp was around 34 F. Simply amazing! Here she is, my sexy Italian mistress...
(http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee478/superduc/DSC00020.jpg)
(http://i1229.photobucket.com/albums/ee478/superduc/DSC00021.jpg)
[thumbsup] I might need to check my gap out see if I can get it even smoother.
Quote from: Heath on December 30, 2011, 07:59:47 AM
[thumbsup] I might need to check my gap out see if I can get it even smoother.
that's what she said [thumbsup]
seriously, this is a very useful thread, i am going to regap my plugs on my s2r and see if it helps.. 0.35 seems huge though
I've put NGK IRs in all my bikes but I read somewhere not to gap them so I didn't. I'll be checking them the next time I have them out. Interesting info/results. [drink]
I've found the best plugs irrespective of whether they are standard or iridium, to be fresh ones. ;)
IMO Iridium plugs resist a certain gooey '98 Octane fuel down here a little better and bounce back a little better from carb flooding. But they are too expensive if something does take them out. With standard plugs I'm not cursing if I have to bin 'em, I just consider it a service item. I use iridium plugs in bikes that require a lot of effort to replace them (a small mercy to the customer). :)
Whether standard or iridium, plugs never quite seem the same after a good carb flooding.
LT Snyder also advises to increase the gap on iridium plugs.
I've had cold start problems with my s4 sometimes it starts fine with the choke other time you have to churn it over and sometime turn of the choke in case it floods could this be plug and or gaps they are the iridium ngk once started and warm the bike pulls clean any help info would be appreciated.
P.S the plugs were only just fitted at the last service and were new out of the box but I don't know how old they are as I got them with the bike.
Adjust the gaps to 0.035. I did and they worked for me. New out of the box gaps are set at 0.024 (at least mine were). Be very very careful with the iridium electrodes when adjusting these plugs. Good luck!
Quote from: Nero-92 on January 09, 2012, 05:05:31 PM
I've had cold start problems with my s4 sometimes it starts fine with the choke other time you have to churn it over and sometime turn of the choke in case it floods could this be plug and or gaps they are the iridium ngk once started and warm the bike pulls clean any help info would be appreciated.
P.S the plugs were only just fitted at the last service and were new out of the box but I don't know how old they are as I got them with the bike.
Your fuel injected S4 has a fast idle lever, not a choke. When was it serviced last?
Reason they say not to gap the ir is cause they can break easier.. just be gentle.. anyone try the diamond ones? I tested them in my neon and al though I was running a bit hot, I thought they would last longer. The damns electrode broke off on 2 of them.. gap at .035 for winter and prob around .028-25 for racing in my case.. copper seem to work best.. I do change plugs every 2nd oil change.
Quote from: howie on January 10, 2012, 04:44:14 AM
Your fuel injected S4 has a fast idle lever, not a choke. When was it serviced last?
I realise it's a fast idle but the bike from cold won't idle with out it for the first few minutes and by service do you mean oil plugs and filters or the full Monty valve clearances belts etc?
P.S the oil plugs and filters were done at Xmas.
Quote from: Nero-92 on January 12, 2012, 06:07:07 PM
I realise it's a fast idle but the bike from cold won't idle with out it for the first few minutes and by service do you mean oil plugs and filters or the full Monty valve clearances belts etc?
P.S the oil plugs and filters were done at Xmas.
Ok I think I've found the cause of the cold start problem ME I was foolishly using the fast idle as a choke to start the duc after being idle for a while the weather for the past 2 weeks here has been gale force winds and rain so the duc was just sitting in the garage but went to it today and started it by mistake without touching the fast idle control and it started no probs and then ajusted the fast idle lever for the first min or so happy days.
Good post (thanx to the "search feature" for finding it).
Had the S2R 1000 out last evening, been about 1000-ish miles since serviced. Got about 6 miles from home and noiticed a decrease in power and rough running. Was afraid it would stall when stopped so kept it reved and drifted through most stops. Got it home and it did stay lit at idle (revved, blew stop signs and worried for nothing).
So started checking...Battery volts read 13+...Battery OK. Low fuel light was working (but not on) only 104 miles on the tank...Has fuel, OK. Pull all of the plugs...all LOOKED OK.
Figured it might be a fouled plug so ordered 4 NGK Iridiums on Amazon...Today read this post...Just ordered 4 Champion copper (Champion RA 6 HC) this morning.
When sitting in the garage and running it up to 2000 to 3000 range the rough running was noticable (hot last night and cold this AM). Pulled and replaced all plugs with an old set I had kept after a service...Rough idle and miss gone !!! Glad it was just a bad plug. It had the standard NGKs installed. Will keep the old plugs in until the new ones arrive from Amazon. Not sure which I will install..Probably the Champions?
Thanx all for this very informative post/thread...wish I would have read it last night, would not have ordered the iridiums...Oh well.
copy and pasting this post I made on a different forum:
I've never used iridiums in a ducati before, but I have used them in turbo honda motors that I've built. when used in 300-500hp 4-cycl honda motors, standard copper NGK plugs would only last about 3k miles if that, whereas the iridiums lasted 8k-12k miles. BUT, the standard copper plugs actually made about 10% more power than the iridium plugs, which I first noticed from the driver's seat, and then I proved time and time again on an actual dyno.
not sure if this same effect would occur in a ducati, but just sharing my experience, and it stayed consistent like this in over 20 cars/engines. my two cents
and a more important post I made on the same forum in a different thread:
I've been a nut for NGK sparkplugs for years and years no matter what the application was. but after finding champions in my duc, I did some research n what it would cross to for an ngk plug, and found a LOT of forum posters on various websites saying NGK plugs are crap in ducatis and should NOT be used. most of the time it would run fine for a few minutes, then run choppy as heck, then run rich as heck, then rough up and foul out and die and not restart again. cleaning the plugs would make it start up again but only for a few seconds before it'd repeat itsself. but I insisted on giving it a shot cuz I love NGK plugs. I used the exact same nkg plugs you have (standard copper tip, referring to the other forum this derived from), and guess what? my bike ran fine for about 1 minute, then got choppy, then died and wouldnt restart. pulled the plugs and they were blacker than black and all wet and fouled out. cleaned em, tried again, same thing. put the champions back in (RA6HC, what my bike calls for), bike fired right up and ran amazingly for 100 miles.
while hot I tried another set of the same ngk plugs, these ones again brand new, same exact thing happened, ran fine, chopped up, fouled out, died, wouldnt restart.
get yourself the champion plugs that your bike calls for, should be right on the sticker on the frame. you may find that is the only problem with your bike
I have had the opposite experience. Champions under performed, while I have used NGKs for the last 18k miles with stellar performance. No plug issues.
I have never used iridium or platinum because I could not stomach the price when getting such good performance out of the standard NGKs. Good to hear some input on them guys. [thumbsup]
Quote from: BastrdHK on June 19, 2012, 02:55:35 AM
I have had the opposite experience. Champions under performed, while I have used NGKs for the last 18k miles with stellar performance. No plug issues.
I have never used iridium or platinum because I could not stomach the price when getting such good performance out of the standard NGKs. Good to hear some input on them guys. [thumbsup]
what are the stock champion plugs your bikes calls for, and what NGK plugs are you using? I would love to give them a try, because I've always had better experiences with NGK plugs over champions in everything up until my ducati
NGK DCPR8E, Champion RA8GHC
For a 2001 M900
I'm running Denso Iridium's in my 2009 696, so far so good and no problems related to spark. I figure the Ducati engine is a gasoline internal combustion engine, same as my other V8s and Inline 4 car engines that also run Iridium plugs.
The manual for my 96 900 calls for RA6HC
I run DCPR8e. They're fine.
Quote from: ducpainter on June 22, 2012, 08:53:49 AM
The manual for my 96 900 calls for RA6HC
I run DCPR8e. They're fine.
Most people I know with 900s do the same, that is, run the NGK equivalent to the factory spec RA6HC.
The NGK option down here seems to be the DPR8EA-9 (part no 4929) or the iridium DPR8EIX-9 (part no 4274).
I wonder what the difference is between DCPR8e and DPR8EA-9? The former seems harder to find down here.
Oh yeah, the .9mm (.036) factory gap on the iridium version should be enough with strong aftermarket coils and leads? Both kinds of those NGK plugs have a bigger gap than the Haynes manual recommendation for the Champion plug.
As has been mentioned LT Snyder also recommends a larger gap for the Iridium plug. The standard type NGK plug commonly availabledown here has the bigger gap also. We are talking .9 (.036) Vs .6. (.024). I would generally tend to agree with Snyder that "the condition of the plugs and the gap are bigger determinants of spark plug performance than brand" (Desmodue Maintenance and Modification Guide).
I do note with my old 900, the iridiums gapped at .9mm or .036 are leaner looking when I tested them at idle to 1/4 throttle speeds when compared to the non iridium NGKs with the same gap.
It may well all be in the gap.
Quote from: koko64 on June 22, 2012, 03:12:32 PM
Most people I know with 900s do the same, that is, run the NGK equivalent to the factory spec RA6HC.
The NGK option down here seems to be the DPR8EA-9 (part no 4929) or the iridium DPR8EIX-9 (part no 4274).
I wonder what the difference is between DCPR8e and DPR8EA-9? The former seems harder to find down here.
I'm not exactly sure of which one I'm using.
The 8's work.
I've never fouled a plug or had any running issues.
What gap do you run, the .024 (0.6) or the .036 (0.9)?
I'm running Denso IXU24 at 0.035" gap on my 2009 696. It felt like my throttle was a bit more responsive, but it did not impact cold/hot starts at all.
Quote from: koko64 on June 24, 2012, 05:19:45 PM
What gap do you run, the .024 (0.6) or the .036 (0.9)?
Me?
.024
Quote from: ducpainter on June 25, 2012, 02:44:08 AM
Me?
.024
Yep. :)
The NGK plug commonly used here has a larger gap as supplied compared to the oem Champion. It's the same large gap as the iridium plug. Does the plug you use come pre gapped at .024 or do you gap it to the oem Champion spec?
I'm curious as to the different plug gaps.
Quote from: koko64 on June 25, 2012, 05:29:24 AM
Yep. :)
The NGK plug commonly used here has a larger gap as supplied compared to the oem Champion. It's the same large gap as the iridium plug. Does the plug you use come pre gapped at .024 or do you gap it to the oem Champion spec?
I'm curious as to the different plug gaps.
I check them, but IIRC they are close to .024.
To be honest, the plugs last so long I don't really remember.
I've never fouled one
Quote from: metroplex on June 24, 2012, 05:30:34 PM
I'm running Denso IXU24 at 0.035" gap on my 2009 696. It felt like my throttle was a bit more responsive, but it did not impact cold/hot starts at all.
Sounds consistent with the claims made about iridium plugs and gap sizes.
I suppose some stock ignition systems, particularly on older carbed bikes, may not be up to handling the larger plug gaps required by the iridium plugs.
So effecient, high output coils and leads are probably required to support the large plug gaps, no surprise, but it might catch some people out and explain some peoples issues.
Quote from: koko64 on June 25, 2012, 05:24:34 PM
Sounds consistent with the claims made about iridium plugs and gap sizes.
I suppose some stock ignition systems, particularly on older carbed bikes, may not be up to handling the larger plug gaps required by the iridium plugs.
So effecient, high output coils and leads are probably required to support the large plug gaps, no surprise, but it might catch some people out and explain some peoples issues.
Exactly.
High output coils have always been necessary for larger plug gaps.
It does make a performance difference too.
My old 2 smokers stopped fouling plugs with better coils and Champion Gold Palladium plugs.
So DP and metroplex, what ignition set ups you guys running?
Quote from: koko64 on June 25, 2012, 05:28:33 PM
So DP and metroplex, what ignition set ups you guys running?
My engine is stock except for cans...slip ons, and jetting.
I put my money into suspension. ;)
I bought a set before I viewed this thread always thought they were better in some way. Shows how much I don't know. I decided to try them anyway since I was having hesitating when starting. I gapped them to .036 as suggested in this tread. I also used some boot grease. She started perfectly. After a short drive felt like a little more responsive maybe. I will up date on the cold starts come fall. I did order some OEM ones just in case.
koko64: I'm running the stock ignition coils. I tested the IXU24 Iridium plugs using the stock wires, and then with the Magnecor wires. I didn't detect a difference with the Magnecor wires.
My 696 came from the dealer with the Race ECU, Termi slip-ons, and Race air filter.
After doing a lot of trial and error during the winter when it got into the single digits, I found that the quantity of engine oil and weight of engine oil had the most impact on cold starts w/ my 696. The plugs and wires had zero effect. Too much oil apparently causes a hard start condition. Too thick of an oil makes cold starts difficult as well. Filling my motor to the bottom sight mark line with Rotella T6 made for very easy cold starts. However, the T6 would cause the clutch to slip badly during WOT speed shifts. Running M1 V-Twin 20W-50 makes cold starts/cold idling very cumbersome, but the engine performs more smoothly.
DP. Well stock plugs and smaller oem gaps make perfect sense.
Metro. It seems its all about a better burn and improved response. I like a lighter oil in winter also.
I'm running Igniteck ignitor, high output coils and fancy leads and either type of plug seems to work well with the larger gap. Only issue I've had is plugs compromised by carb flooding (and one particular brand of fuel), so losing ten bucks is better then fifty. I reckon the iridiums bounce back a little better, but if they fail I'm cursin'.
The plug color of the iridiums (on my bike) supports the theory of a bigger flame kernel and more complete combustion at least at lower revs, when compared to the regular plugs. Thats the only test I've done. I dont ever plan to dyno test it for a street bike.
I think the science regarding low rpm running, high performance ignition, and plug gap is proven.
I just ride it. ;D
Well put. [thumbsup]
Quote from: ducpainter on June 25, 2012, 06:10:05 PM
I think the science regarding low rpm running, high performance ignition, and plug gap is proven.
I just ride it. ;D
That's pretty much it. ;)
On a car, I wouldn't hesitate to run Iridium or Platinum plugs. They just last longer and perform better than copper plugs. One of my Fords came from the factory with Iridium plugs. I tried copper plugs one time and at 12,000 miles the electrode erosion was significant.