For those that are anal retentive about their 796 being the exact same as the 1100, even though the 1100 has 4 spark plugs... the following may or may not apply to you.
Ever since I got the 696 brand new from the dealership with 0 miles, it has had difficulty starting below 45-50F ambient. The Yuasa battery was brand new and it has lived on a Tender since I first got the bike. Looking on the Internet, it seems may other 696 owners have the same problem. Most of the smart ass replies consist of "use the fast idle lever, follow the owner's manual, blah blah blah" and some nicer folks looked at Li-Ion batteries, wiring upgrades, considered leaner/richer tunes, or suggested that the engine break in more.
I changed the oil, changed to Iridium spark plugs, deleted the evap canister, upgraded the spark plug wires, checked the battery wiring connections, etc... and the 696 still had issues cold starting. I noticed the spark plugs were always oily, and a lot of oil residue collected on the tailpipes. Revving the engine would always result in a puff of blue smoke upon deceleration. What I noticed more was that during the difficult cold starts, after 36-40 cranks when the engine finally starts, there would always be a plume of blue smoke coming out. And yes, I understand the difference between blue smoke (oil being burned), black smoke (rich condition), and steam.
So I looked at my oil level (after the change), and wow, it was really overfilled. I didn't realize it was that important to have the bike vertical and off the stands. This requires some Yoga skills with a block of wood on the sidestand.
After I drained out the excess and kept the oil level at or slightly above the minimum/lower mark on the sightglass, the cold start issues went away.
I conducted 4 cold start tests, one a day essentially, with the ambient air/outdoor temperatures at 35, 37, 28, and 17 degrees F respectively.
For the first 2 tests, I waited until the headlight shut off, kept the Tender on, and waited until the battery voltage was at 12.8 VDC or as high as it can go on the Tender. I opened up the fast idle lever, and hit the starter. In one crank, the engine fired up, hobbled around 1k RPM, and then sped up by itself. Only once did it stall out, but it fired up on the next start.
I still needed to rule out the battery/voltage, so today when the outside temp was 17F and the engine was actually 28F (using IR thermometer inside the unheated garage), I pulled the TEnder, turned on the key, opened the lever, and hit the starter without waiting. I saw the battery voltage was at 12.3 VDC during cranking. It fired right up, hobbled around 1-1.5k RPM, and sped up by itself.
Although that is only 4 test trials, I think the oil level was the biggest cause of cold starting issues. I recall that from the factory/dealer, my oil level was close to the top mark and could have been overfilled. I see from Ducati promotional photographs that the oil level is always at or slightly above that min mark on the sight glass.
I wonder how the oil level relates to ambient air temperature, and my only guess is that at colder temperatures, oil soaked spark plugs and 2 cold combustion chambers with "high" compression makes it harder to start than say a 4/6/8/10/12 cylinder engine with more spark plugs/cylinders.
From what others have said, it doesn't take much to go over the top mark, so it might be worthwhile to check your oil level if you have issues cold starting a Monster 696.
I've ruled out the headlight, spark plugs, spark plug wires, oil viscosity/type, battery, battery/starter wiring, DP Race ECU stock tune, and other voodoo.
My 696 has the DP race ECU (non-ABS), Termi's, 93 octane from the local pump, Denso IXU24 iridium plugs (at 0.9mm gap), and Magnecor 8.5mm race wires.
You may have discovered something here. If the crankcase is overfilled oil will be forced into the combustion chambers and could cause plug fowling. If overfull enough (quite a bit) cranking speed can be reduced too since crankcase volume is reduced.
I don't know if this will work for you, but I simply hold the bike vertical against my knee to check. I find it easy to feel vertical. You need to allow time for the oil to level in the site glass. Don't keep it topped off to the full line. I can't speak for the 696, but the difference between the full line and the add line is not much. You will find each bike will find it's happy point between add and full.
A student who just bought a used bike asked me why his bike was hard starting and told me the bike would stall after a couple of trips around the block. I asked him if he checked the oil level. He said the oil filled the sight glass. I suggested he drain the oil and measure what came out. Twice the oil capacity came out. He refilled it with the proper amount of oil. Problem solved.
Howie, after much experimenting that is what I ended up doing to make the bike vertical. Hands on the fender/subframe and handlebar/fork, and knee on the timing cover or frame and wait for the oil to level in the sight glass.
Was your student's bike a thumper, a twin, or another engine?
Here's a photo of what I was talking about, a photo of a 848 Streetfighter in one of the magazines also indicated a similar oil level:
(http://otosport.addfinal.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Ducati-Monster-696-black-side-picture.jpg)
I4, a well used Yamaha 600 sport bike. He picked it up for something close to free. I wouldn't be surprised if the previous owner was having the same problem and thought the bike needed an engine.
It's crazy that it was something so simple that was causing this condition.
I was reading your other thread, trying to figure it out and I was stumped.
I'm glad that you found the problem!
Why only when cold then?
Fully synthetic oils are supposed to flow pretty much the same way.
Good to know though, as I tend to be on the "more" side when I change my oil ...
Quote from: HotIce on January 03, 2012, 06:09:41 PM
Why only when cold then?
Fully synthetic oils are supposed to flow pretty much the same way.
Good to know though, as I tend to be on the "more" side when I change my oil ...
The problem is not oil flow. Fuel atomization is poor when temperatures are cold, even more so when laced with ethanol. Available battery amprerage also diminishes with temperature. All these create higher ignition demands and need for a richer mixture. Oil fouled plugs and leaner maps to meet emission standards make cold starting more of a chore.
[clap]
Quote from: metroplex on January 03, 2012, 01:30:39 PMI didn't realize it was that important to have the bike vertical and off the stands. This requires some Yoga skills with a block of wood on the sidestand.
BTW, I do this by standing on the bike and keeping it vertical, and using my phone to take a picture with my right hand.
Even if your right arm has to drop on the side to do this, it is not as bad as leaning your head all the way to the side to look at the oil level window.
It's also another good reason to get a rear stand.
I have the Pit Bull front and rear stands, but I wasn't sure if it would affect the height/angle of the engine causing an incorrect sight glass reading. Once I figure out the exact quantity of oil to use, it will be a lot simpler.
Good thread/find Metroplex, it is because of spark plugs getting fouled by excessive engine oil. [thumbsup]
BTW If you have to change battery, spark plug/wires, ecu...to solve a cold starting issue... then we can pretty much say that Ducati does not know what they are doing. :P
Quote from: metroplex on January 04, 2012, 07:11:47 AM
I have the Pit Bull front and rear stands, but I wasn't sure if it would affect the height/angle of the engine causing an incorrect sight glass reading. Once I figure out the exact quantity of oil to use, it will be a lot simpler.
Let us know what you find when you check vertical vs. on stand(s).
The bike needs to be vertical and reasonably level. Could you note where the oil is in the sight glass when level and when on the rearstand and use that for future reference? As long as it is the same rear stand supported in the same place, sure.
So I guess this would be among the reasons why the owner's manual specifically states not to overfill the engine with oil :P
This thread is useful as it shows what problems can occur, since the manufacturer isn't kind enough to be specific, i.e. the mushroom treatment. It's a well-known no-no. It would be nice though, if the manufacturers would stop acting as though people aren't smart enough to know why they should not do this or that however, and what the specific effects of these mistakes would be. .
Overfilling a wet-sump engine with oil drags on the crankshaft, and causes it to whip the oil into a froth much like pastry chef whips cream in a mixer. This is bad for obvious reasons because frothy oil won't lube the bearings and other metal parts inside the engine properly as oil pressure will be lost. A properly filled crankcase will not leave oil in the sump space interfering with the crankshaft lobes when the engine is running and the oil pump is pumping. With modern synthetics it's not as bad, but still. I'm not sure about the danger of seals blowing out, as if anything it seems to me that oil pressure would lessen with oil froth. And in the case of Ducati 2-valve engines, and this case in particular, a grossly overfilled sump causing fouled plugs. Must have really been overfilled. I suspect it has to do with specific engine design, how overfilling affects everything.
Most people tend to believe they want the oil level right at the top mark on the dipstick, or crankcase ticks or whatever. I have come to learn that the engine, at least the ones I've known, wants it to be somewhere in the middle. Big engines with small oil capacities would be the exception, you want to keep those topped off.
Speaking of frothing oil, the factory filled oil tended to bubble/foam up in the sight glass when I revved the engine. The fact I could see the oil in the sightglass while the engine is running tells me (now, after the fact) it was overfilled.
Now that I drained the oil to the lower mark, I cannot see any oil in the sight glass when the engine is running.
Just another reason to not trust others with your Bike/Car oil change, the car I have now had two quarters more than specified by the manufacturer, somebody in the service dept of the dealer was kind enough to damp a couple of cans into the engine not even bothering to check how much is needed, I wonder if they even check what type of engine oil to be used.
I just wanted to provide an update. I performed cold starts on an intermittent basis, trying to conduct it as cold as possible. I waited a week between starts for the most recent trial run, and it still fired right up. It was 10F in the morning, and warmed up to 18F ambient. My LCD read 22F. I yanked the Tender for a few minutes, opened the fast idle lever, and fired up the engine with 1 push of the button. I'm using 93 octane fuel too.
Did you ever get around to see the oil level on the rear stand vs. holding vertical on the ground?
It's great to hear that your problem seems to be solved! [thumbsup]
No, I didn't get a chance to check the oil level with the bike on the stands yet.
Quote from: Dellikose on January 04, 2012, 09:47:49 AM
Let us know what you find when you check vertical vs. on stand(s).
I used the Pitbull rear stand today and checked the oil level. I believe this is kosher to use as a way to check the oil level. My oil level ended up being a few mm's above the lowest mark on the sight glass. But like we all know, a few degrees lean toward either side throws off the level by a lot. At least with the sidestand, the bike is vertical. The rear being higher by a few inches didn't seem to cant the level by much.
I also tried some tips recommended by other Ducatistis for using the rear stand by yourself - and it worked like a charm. It took only a few seconds to do, and I was able to inspect and lube my chain. I wish it were this easy to work on my cars.
The only issue I've been encountering is some seepage from the K&N oil filter, which I suspect might be insufficient filter torque or remaining oil from the gasket. The other issue is that I think I overoiled my Ducati Race air filter, so K&N oil is dripping down from the airbox drain hose. The dealer neglected to oil the DP race filter before they installed the kit, so I had been riding around with an unoiled cotton gauze filter.
Presume you know that engine oil level should be checked with a warm engine, allowing the oil to settle 5 - 10 minutes?
If you're talking about just today, I checked it cold, as in 20F degrees, left it overnight, etc... But yeah, it's not my first time changing oil in anything. It's just my first engine that was overly sensitive to oil level with respect to cold starts. Heck, even my 4-stroke gasoline generator fires right up even if I overfilled the engine oil.
After seeing how stable the bike was with the rear stand (obviously), I'd recommend using it for oil changes, or at least I plan to do so. Keeping it vertical by hand while checking the level is too cumbersome and subjects the process to many potential sources of error.
Your level is fine if it's at or just below the upper mark when the oil is hot and then has time to settle. Note the level after your next ride. If will be higher than the reading you observed today with a cold engine.
BTW, no European car or bike responds well to overfilling the oil. It may start OK but that's too much pressure in the crankcase. No idea about American engines or whether they tolerate it.
Next time you change the oil and filter in that bike, do it with a warm engine so that more nasties can drain out and then mostly fill the new oil filter before installing. Then add 1/2 qt / 500 ccs less than recommended. Run the bike several minutes, allow the oil to settle, and then observe the level. Add as needed to bring up to just between the marks. That should give you a level ~ the top mark when the engine is hot.
My 696 won't start with that much oil in there. The whole point of this thread is to show that the 696 will fire right up in a cold start when the oil level is at the lowest mark or around that point. I've gotten it to start 99.9% with one push of the button even down to 15F ambient, running 93 octane, using the stock electricals and the DP race ECU/Termi exhaust, and the engine isn't even past 600 miles yet.
Go back and read the start of this thread again. Nothing else I did solved the issue except for reducing the oil level. Ducati's promo pics of their bikes also shows this level (right at the lowest mark).
My American cars will fire right up even when I overfill it or go above the FULL line for the oil level dipstick. As for the oil level check when it is cold or warm, the oil level will be the highest when the engine is totally cold since everything drains back down. It doesn't really matter what temperature I drain the oil at, if it has sat there for 6 months everything will have drained down. The only advantage to changing the oil when it is warmed, is that the oil flows faster. This isn't my first time changing engine oil...
I only resurrected this thread because someone asked about checking the oil level using a rear stand, which I did today and noted that it was a lot easier to do so versus manually holding it vertical.
I figured that the oil level would be negligible between a stand and completely level.
What I end up doing is doing the change and refill in the rear stand, since it is so convenient. I'll go on a ride, and then check the oil by holding it level and do the fine tuning of the oil level that way.
I appreciate you checking the difference between the two. [thumbsup]
i know this sounds stupid. but to prove a point, fill it to the top of the line again and see if it recreates the cold start problem. or did I miss it that you did that again?
Quote from: Raux on March 12, 2012, 07:41:15 AM
i know this sounds stupid. but to prove a point, fill it to the top of the line again and see if it recreates the cold start problem. or did I miss it that you did that again?
;)
It'd make more sense for others with cold start issues to try draining the oil and seeing if it fixes the problem on their end. So far I've heard one other person try it with success.
Quote from: metroplex on March 12, 2012, 07:55:41 AM
It'd make more sense for others with cold start issues to try draining the oil and seeing if it fixes the problem on their end. So far I've heard one other person try it with success.
well yes and no. going back up on your bike would prove it without a doubt.
I think it'd be far simpler for the folks who still experience cold start issues to give it a try!
It's too warm in MI for me to try now anyhow. The current air temperatures are too high. The naysayers chimed in too late in the season. I just know my bike did not want to start even after addressing: oil viscosity, voltage, current, air, spark (new plugs, new wires), startup procedure, removal of evap canister, adjusting carb synchronization, doing a rain dance on a blue moon, waiting 30 seconds after the LCD scrolls, etc... Only when I drained the oil did it fire right up, even in 15F ambient. Logic would dictate that dropping the oil level solved the cold start issue on my 696.
If the air temperatures drop below 30F, I'll give it a shot and waste some oil to satisfy the usual suspects here. But looking at a long range forecast, we're going to be in the 60s-70s.
Put a couple quarts in the freezer ;)