Ducati Monster Forum

You have to be registered to read it, so a summary and a quote are provided below.

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/24306246-5566-11e1-9d95-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1mDNp4eGG (http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/24306246-5566-11e1-9d95-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1mDNp4eGG)

Investindustrial, the Italian private equity group backed by the Bonomi family, is looking to dispose of the Ducati brand in a deal worth up to €1bn.  Ducati is set to change hands this year.  Its owner aims to make three times its initial investment by selling or listing the producer of top-end Italian motorcycles.

2.5.  Members should not post copyrighted materials without permission of author or photographer as applicable. Links to other publications or materials are allowed along with a short introduction to the material.

The best bet IMO is if BMW buys the company (if they absolutely have to sell). They are large enough to handle the debt and they have some really nice bikes of their own. You want to believe that BMW would keep some, if not all of Ducatis designers on staff. But that's in a perfect world....

Don't forget AMG Mercedes... [bow_down]

They already have links with Ducati... [thumbsup]

Geoff... [coffee]

Who could argue with such a true statement??? [thumbsup] could you imagine an Amg monster?? As with anything Amg the price would also be unimaginable.

Thanks. Poor timing IMO. If they need a cash infusion, an unrelated business is the best bet as one with a brain wouldn't tamper with the engineering and marketing very much. None of the car companies have much ready cash at the moment BTW.

To those who think BMW is a good fit, been there, got the t-shirt. (And that's from having them crap up my brand for 6 years before moving on. Almost killed the goose that lays the golden eggs. >:()

If it has to be a car company, VW might be passable if the Board of Management has enough Porsche people these days. I'm retired and haven't kept track lately. Was never very impressed with the road VW took with Bentley in Crewe although they've interfered less with Lamborghini than I'd expected.

Personally, IMO the Bloor/Triumph example is a better course for a two-wheeled niche-marketer.

AMG is a "halo" division similar to the "M" division at BMW. Both are probably loss leaders. Benz doesn't need a motorcycle company but at least Benz is highly diversified and doesn't usually tamper with the better brands they own which include "other trade name" marine turbine, truck, bus, etc., etc. companies.

 [clap] a good move with the right partner but something tells me that's going to be next to impossible.  An investment firm would be ideal IMO, any other bike conglomerate would finish the brand I think.

FIAT ?

my vote would be for VW also....VWAG does seem to have their shit together in running things with their brands without necessarily diluting them or interfering too much...I think it would be a good things for both in the end...

This could be good or bad.  I'm worried.


I was thinking the same thing; they are certainly better than some of the other options.

Just because you had a bad experience with Beamer (I'm assuming the car end of things) does not mean they will fudge up the bike side. Have you seen the new BMW s1000, the liter bike that just dethroned all of the big 4 in the sportbike world? Didn't BMW also bring the mini cooper totally back to life as well??? Ducati is not dead, but if the rumors are true she's definitely wounded. I hope Ducati does not have to sell anything, but seeing the proven history of BMW turning things around with such a dead concept as the mini gives me the proof I need to say that they would be my choice if things had to go that route.

I think the S1000RR is exactly why I wouldn't want BMW to own Ducati.
I don't BMW would want to compete with itself. Therefore they would take Ducati further upmarket to avoid the comparison.

Mercedes is my bet. the association with AMG is a good thing so far (little meddling, one branded bike).

FIAT maybe, but they are betting too much right now reopening the US market.

So let me get this right, your argument is that BMW would buy a company and then kill said company so that it would have less competition, instead of buying Ducati, attack whatever issues Ducati has had (tank issues and so on) and make god knows how much money from revamping a few small issues??? Any profit made from the Ducati brand would still go straight to BMW either way, so there wouldn't be any loss. The only loss would come from debt that Ducati already has. I'm not against an AMG monster either, but anything that Mercedes puts that AMG label on,said item price instantly skyrockets

You wouldn't be a BMW fanboy, would you?  ;)

BMW is still family-controlled and BMW is highly compartmentalized and arrogant. Munich is the opposite of "open-minded". You appear to be viewing BMW as a consumer. Your views would be different if you had access to insider information as I do/did. The motorcycle division in Berlin has always been a step-child and anyone who works in that division would confirm that this has been the case since the early '70's but they won't because they'd be "sacked and sued". Trust me on this one.

On MINI I could write a book since I knew the design team at Gaydon. Many now work in Munich. There was ZERO BMW content in that product for the first few years. In fact "we", (Land Rover), stamped the body panels. The whole Rover episode was a disgrace and the British government is still out of the huge loan they made BMW six months before BMW pulled the plug and grabbed the MINI project before selling off the Rover assets for 10 GBP.

Having not closely followed the motorcycle market for quite a while, I'm not sure what BMW is trying to do. Seems $30,000 touring bikes are the current profit center. The F-bikes are a mess though, so I bought a 796 which was both cheaper and far better IMO.

Maybe BMW is OK for Husqvarna since those bikes don't compete with any BMW. At least I hope that's true, since I helped a good friend get a job as Eastern Regional Sales Manager there last year. Reminds me that I owe him a call since we haven't spoken for months.

Actually I'm an American consumer, but I know all of the companies in the states would probably screw up Ducati so bad no one would want it. I was clearly pointing out the fact that someone at BMW saw that mini design and said "this could be big". They have really good technology in all of their bikes and it's hard for me to believe they would not share said info with a company they just bought... I don't know about business deals that went bad or frame work ideas that were given away but I do know progress when I see it... [thumbsup]

If technology in a bike is your thing it seems to me that BMW doesn't have anything on Ducati. Ducati traction control is ahead of BMW (introduced earlier to production models, and is superior based on WSBK results), the MTS adjustable suspension is ahead of the BMW version on the GS and the 1199 is even more advanced, keyless ignition, DDA, etc.

In short, I don't really think Ducati needs any help from BMW in the design/tech department...unless they wan to introduce a shaft final drive system with suspect reliability.  ;)

If you read all of my post instead of the last one you will clearly see that I state that I hope Ducati stays Ducati. I never said that Ducati "could learn a thing or two from BMW". What I said was if BMW bought the ducati brand then they would be willing to share their technology, I'm more than sure it would go both ways.But just to entertain, even if Ducati knows the most about technology there is still info that can be learned from company to company. So let's be clear, I never compared Ducati to BMW, but I did compare BMW to the big 4, ie Honda,kawa,suzuki,and Yamaha...

I did read all your posts, and they make no difference. Below is what I was responding to...if that isn't what you really meant then OK, but it reads like BMW could help Ducati with technology.

I don't care either way...just felt the need to point out that Ducati doesn't really need technology help from BMW.


It's also worth nothing that the last owner of Ducati was American (TPG), and is largey responsible for the good position the company is in now.

NO THANKS.  We learned the hard way from the Alfa/Chrysler mashup

(http://i99.photobucket.com/albums/l309/ducatiz/DMF/72caeef0.jpg)

If Mercedes bought it, would they all become automatics with the occasional, rare exception?  [cheeky]

When I said share info I didn't mean tutor Ducati ??? Don't know how youO came to that conclusion. And TPG only owned 45 percent of Ducati stock, so technically they didn't own it.

  [clap]  [clap] [clap] [clap] [clap] lol that thing is hideous.

truly, you have to thank Cagiva for it.

They saved Ducati's bacon, and made some great bikes, but this one was a stinker.

Exactly!   Should I stop at their offices and make the case for them to do it again and this time not sell it to the Italians?  [evil]. History seems to repeat itself. 

Sadly I know some of the folks at TPG.......better yet, they have a file on me from 2005 when my poor little monster was held hostage by a dealer, not in Dallas btw

It may be a good time for Investindustrial to get rid of Ducati.  It will have made a nice profit, which seems to be rare for private equity investment in vehicles, and will have left the company in decent shape.  According to the article, Mahindra, VW and BMW are interested.  I'd like to see BMW step in since I think both companies would benefit from supply chain improvements.  And maybe BMW could learn to design a bike that doesn't look like it just had a stroke. 

please God no.

Mahindra has a horrible reputation.

Tata would be far better for an indian firm.  Not Mahindra.  That would be like going back to Finn Meccanica

+1

This is too bad, but I have to say it makes sense they way the company has been acting recently.

I can't see a fit for any of the companies entertaining the offers.  VW?  They have the available cash, but hey also are a family that ranges from Skoda to Bugatti and Bentley.  They have no previous history with bikes, so it's not certain they wouldn't dump it after two years or strip off completely (see also Cerberus group involvement with Chrysler).

BMW?  I can't see that for similar reasons, though again, likely have the cash.  They have Husqvarna and their own broad lineup which nearly overlaps Ducati's range segment for segment.  The paperwork to add an 'Italian' company wouldn't make it across the Quandt's desks.

Mahindra?  Ducatiz has it nailed-I'll agree quality control isn't their forte, and Ducati needs all the help they can get to keep going with their current R&D.  A sale to them would debase their reputation thus far.

My probably culprits?  Three fold.  A side arm to the Ferrari group (again, they have cash, and understand a premium marque).  Tata motors, who's bought up Range Rover and Jaguar, so adding a motorcycle manufacturer might be in their interests.  I'm not saying it's in Italy's best interest but. . . .

The third is a private equity firm similar to TPG helping in the 90s.  A firm that understands premium brands and (more or less) keeps them fed with enough money to do what they're best at.  Possibly partial ownership with Italian management.

I also don't see any US companies opting in, simply because they don't understand Ducati in NA much less the world.

I think some of you guys read this as Ducati is in trouble and is faltering.  When I read the article that was not the case.  Ducati is doing very well.  All of their new models over that last couple of years have sold very well.  Their numbers are way up.  They are owned by a private equity group that wants to sell them so they can triple their investment.  Also, for Ducati to go to the next level (meaning bigger) they need a partner or owner with a lot of money to invest. 

Personally, I would like to see them stay the size they are right now.  However that isn't how people who run companies think.  Expand or die is how they operate. 

Years ago there was some talk of them buying Guzzi.

It makes sense to me, plenty of brands have multiple faces that overlap somewhat.  Guzzi is not a sportbike brand and Ducati doesn't make any sport tourers anymore, which is a big part of Guzzi's sales along with the classic bikes.

Seems Ducati could get a lower market scooter company and a companion label doing sport tourers and cruisers and whittle the line down to just sport bikes.  Maybe even a group doing trailies. 

Yes, me too, despite any complaints I have.  Ducati's had a great sales year, so they're either financially growing or ripe for selling (unfortunately).  I'd like to see them ally with similarly thinking Italian companies like Aprilia and the Piaggio group have done, but I think that group collected most of the 'good' Italian companies.

Unfortunately, this model of allegiances, mergers or outright purchases has been the norm in the automotive world (BMW-Rolls Royce, VW and its extensive group, Fiat / Chrysler and their subsidiaries, I could go on and on).  A small company like Ducati or MV, would be nice to see hold their own while retaining their 'smallness'.

More info posted over at Asphalt and Rubber.com

They broke a story about a year ago regarding some talks between Mercedes and Ducati (which likely led to the AMG Diavel), but nothing went anywhere.

Link here
http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/rumors/mercedes-benz-purchase-ducati/ (http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/rumors/mercedes-benz-purchase-ducati/)

Their post today reiterates most of what was posted above, with a bit different backstory.  Interesting to know how anxious Ducati is to find a partner.

http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/ducati-valued-1-billion-acquisition-talks-continue/#more-28160 (http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/ducati-valued-1-billion-acquisition-talks-continue/#more-28160)

I just hope whatever happens, they gain/maintain the support to have parts available for my S2R for many years to come.  If Ethanol is going to wear out my air cooled engine faster, I just want to know that parts will be available when it's time for a rebuild.

Agreed.  You can't sell a company at a premium if it's not doing well.  The private equity company is looking to sell it for a billion euros.  I'm curious to know how many times revenues that is. 

I wouldn't rule it out.  Many companies here understand a marque brand and more than half the fortune 500 companies have over 60% of their revenue from overseas markets.  How's that for not understanding the world?

In any event, Ducati may very well have sold a shit ton of bikes and has had an impressive penetration rate but no one here knows their debt so for all we know they may be saddled badly.

I'd figure we'd can indirectly suss out the financial health of Ducati by watching how things line up with this sale.

"Ducati has debts of about 1.7 times its earnings before interest, depreciation and amortization, a low level when compared with most private equity portfolio companies."

those are estimates.  no one knows for sure since they aren't required to disclose anything.

Submit a bid and they will have to disclose their numbers to you - I'll be your analyst and go over the figures  ;D

I wonder if I can pull a D&B overseas and see whats reported to them? hmmmm?

I have most of next week free.  Maybe a trip is worthwhile after winning the lotto this Saturday.  :P

Looks like VW might be interested

http://www.motoblog.it/post/35655/volkswagen-tratta-lacquisto-di-ducati (http://www.motoblog.it/post/35655/volkswagen-tratta-lacquisto-di-ducati)

i'll believe that when i see it.  pieche apparently rides Ducati though.

VW is big enough and acquisition-happy enough to do it.

my question is:

what will this mean?

Maybe Ducati will be the two wheel research arm for VW like they did with Suzuki. VW hit China with an electric scooter from that partnership.

suzuki makes scooters.  ducati doesn't. 

(http://www.bikeexif.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/duccutters_cucciolo.jpg)

Ask Mark how his concepts come back around at Ducati ;)

That is cool. I'd ride that to work

I haven't been keeping up with Ducati news for the past few months, nor have I been reading any forums. But I just heard a rumor that Ducati was purchased by Diamler over the weekend.

If true, that would be excellent because they don't d*ck with a good thing, just provide support and a little direction. Where did you hear that?

http://www.benzinsider.com/2011/04/exclusive-mercedes-benz-is-buying-ducati-entering-motorcycle-business/ (http://www.benzinsider.com/2011/04/exclusive-mercedes-benz-is-buying-ducati-entering-motorcycle-business/)

he bought it again? :P

did you read the link?

Yeah...

it was an April fools joke last year.

it's like the drunk watching the evening news to see if the jumper did it again...

never mind...

although would be kinda wierd if at least part of that joke came true