Okay Okay... I know a few of us here have swapped 999 shocks onto their S2R's (800 or 1000, whatever)...
I read most of the threads I could find, and still don't really have a definitive answer on what spring I need to put on this shock to suit my bike.
I'll be ordering the spring from RaceTech an installing it myself. I was going to send the shock over for new valving, etc... But from what I've read, the stock valving on the 999 Showa is more than adequate, and a drastic improvement over what I'm riding on right now.
So the general definition of what I need is pretty simple. I need a 999 rear spring that matches the ideal rating for my ass on a Monster.
I am 190lbs without gear, and dropping weight at a steady pace (new years resolution..., should hopefully be 175 by August). With a weightloss goal in mind, I would like to air on the side of slightly light on the spring rate if I can't find one to fit perfect for 190lbs.
The stock 999 spring (according to racetech) is rated at 7.8 kg/mm. Obviously the geometry differences, etc. make this spring adequate for the 999.
The stock S2R800 spring rating is an inadequate, progressive jobber that I'd prefer to ditch and not swap over to the 999 shock.
My choices from RaceTech for the 46mm Showa 999 shock are as follows:
- 8.5kg-83N
- 8.9kg-88N
- 9.4kg-92N
- 9.8kg-96N
- 10.7kg-105N
- 11.6kg-114N
From the research I've done on the board here, I've found that the few folks who did the swap ended up with a ~10kg Öhlins spring...
In light of that, I've been leaning toward just ordering the 9.8kg spring from RaceTech and calling it done.
I figured I would at least post up and see if any gurus out there were able to give me an accurate answer/explanation of what spring I should get before I ordered.
Also, to be honest, main reason I'm ordering from RT is the custom powder-coat option...
the power of orange compels me [thumbsup]
on my showa 999 shock ( on my S2R1000) it is a 1091-31 shock or a 95 N/mm at 6.3 inches long. if u are gong ohlins i would get teh 1092, its 6.7 inches long, would give u some extra room to play with preload. ideally 7inch spring would be good, but im not sure what racetech makes. if u are too heavy, dont even bother. you are already jumping from 7.8 for the stock 999. a -31 is a 9.7 spring. im not too sure, but i think if u went even higher the valving would be so out of wack, it would be useless.
im 150lbs btw.
ive all but given up on that shock. Its great imporvement over the stock sachs, but for the miles i put on, a properly valved shock is a much better choice. im getting a works or a penske shock this summer.
At 175lbs I run a 600# Eibach spring / 999 showa shock / S2R800. The stock spring rate was useless to me on the Monster. With the stiffer spring and the stock rebound full closed the shock was nearly adequate. Catalyst Suspension ran several tunings through their shock dyno to find something to suit my needs. The main problem with the Shows is the extreme taper and minimal rotation/adjustment on the rebound needle. Here are a couple of charts that may be useful in determining spring rates and such.
http://www.ducati-upnorth.com/tech/suspensionspring.php (http://www.ducati-upnorth.com/tech/suspensionspring.php)
http://www.1000rr.net/forums/showthread.php?t=11979&highlight=ohlins+chart (http://www.1000rr.net/forums/showthread.php?t=11979&highlight=ohlins+chart)
Quote from: manwithgun on February 15, 2012, 09:51:34 PM
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http://www.ducati-upnorth.com/tech/suspensionspring.php (http://www.ducati-upnorth.com/tech/suspensionspring.php)
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That's a good chart.
Despite there being three rows for Monsters....
The first row is for the '888' early-style hoop frame (dunno why they show 620/800/1000, as those models did not exist in 1994-2000)
2nd and 3rd rows are for the 'ST' style frame.
so it sounds like the consensus may be that the shock really isn't worth the work/money to put on the bike?
at this point i only have $75 into the shock, so if this is the case, I'd like to back out now before i sink anymore coin into it.
I was under the impression that the 999 Showa shock was definitely superior to my stock Sachs unit. Is this incorrect?
oh no, it definitely is much better. but in the grand scheme of things, riding an ohlins vs a showa is still a light year apart.
Listen to He-man, he's smart. I also have a 999 shock, with an ohlins 01091-31/95, 95n/mm spring. If I were doing it again, I'd go with an 01092, as my adjuster is just about at the bottom of the threads to get the preload right.
The 999 Showa shock is streets ahead of the stock Sachs.
Well, I never thought that the Sachs was all that horrible, but those two silver things up front that hold the wheel on is a whole different matter. In OEM form the Sachs shock has got greater rebound range than the 999 Showa on top of the fact that it came valved for a a stiffer spring; just no Comp adjustments. Proper spring rate and a damper that can control it is step #1. Cranking in preload does not substitute having the right spring as there needs to be a bit of static sag to stabilize the rear under heavy braking.
I understand the desire to bolt on parts that will make you a better rider but $$$ will not always make up for lack of experience, let alone talent, especially if spent on non-essentials. If you haven't sorted the front end, start there. Then trackday or rear spring first(if you're over 190ish). From there, not only will you discover the shortcomings of either you or your machine in a controlled and repeatable environment, but you will also have a wealth of knowledge to access from the local track suspension tuner(for mere beans) rather than this pageant that I proudly belong to. They will help you with geo settings (front/rear height) and damper settings and through your feedback can assist you in finding the weak link in your setup. then go full OHLINS...
front end is all sorted with a 999 setup. i'm really not looking to ever track this bike, just want something that performs a little better. the whole reason i'm looking at a new shock is that 1) the rear feels a bit wallow-y in cornering (and I know this is partly due to the fact that i have trouble with smooth throttle control) and 2) I somehow managed to bottom out the rear end one night on a bump, smashing my license plate into my rear tire...
would sticking with stock Sachs unit, and obviously having proper sag set, be a good solution?
<a quick chime in>
I put a 749 shock on my M620 and had to crank in a ton of pre-load with the stock 749 spring to get the sag anywhere near where it should be. I got used to riding it that way. Kept in on there for about a year or so. Then one day I decided to swap the stock M620 spring on to the 749 shock. It made a big difference. I didn't have to crank in as much pre-load. And it didn't cost me a single extra cent. I'm about 175 lbs FWIW. Is the set-up ideal? - no Is it better than the stock sachs shock? - absolutely.
Quote from: corey on February 17, 2012, 04:55:19 AM
would sticking with stock Sachs unit, and obviously having proper sag set, be a good solution?
It would be A solution in the right direction, but so "might" the Showa. I can't remember if the Race Tech spring would be interchangeable between the Sachs and Showa. If so, try them both out and pick your favorite. I was able to tuck the Showa in place by simply bending the interfering coil downward so it's not a huge commitment.
Out of curiosity, how much of the fork tube is sticking out above your top triple (count the lines below the RED cap) and how much preload have you got up front (again, # of lines below the SILVER nut)?
Quote from: manwithgun on February 17, 2012, 09:01:58 AM
It would be A solution in the right direction, but so "might" the Showa. I can't remember if the Race Tech spring would be interchangeable between the Sachs and Showa. If so, try them both out and pick your favorite. I was able to tuck the Showa in place by simply bending the interfering coil downward so it's not a huge commitment.
Out of curiosity, how much of the fork tube is sticking out above your top triple (count the lines below the RED cap) and how much preload have you got up front (again, # of lines below the SILVER nut)?
I'll have to check to confirm, but the forks are sticking up a good bit. they are bit longer than the stock S2R800 shit-sticks, but i did measure everything up to match my stock setup's distance from center-axle to bottom triple-clamp. this provided me with "relatively" similar geometry to what I was used to. the addition of clip-ons added a bit more weight over the front, all in all i've found it exceptionally stable, with turn-in being a bit quicker, but not alarmingly or exceedingly so. when considering the different tapers, etc. in the 999 fork tubes, I actually have the forks mounted as "low in the triple clamp" as they can physically be (bottom triple clamp is at the very top of the bottom "taper" on the fork tube. I'll have to check on the preload. Again, to be honest, I have yet to adjust the preload, as I put the forks on and rode it for year, and it felt great, so decided not to mess with it. it did however make the issues out back more evident.
plan was to get sag set once i get a new shock in place ;)
also, thank in advance for the advice/help on this thing. keep in mind that i'm really looking for a "better-than-what-i-have" solution, and not necessarily the PERFECT setup. I know the 999 forks weren't the PERFECT choice as far as geometry, etc. for my bike, but it was a DRAMATIC improvement, and I feel much safer on the bike because of it's newfound stability in corners. just looking to take it one step further with an imrpoved rear.
So after numerous phone calls and emails to unresponsive suspension companies that just didn't seem to have the knowledge, interest, or desire to help me with this project... I gave Traxxion Dynamics a call. After about 10 minutes on the phone I've been given what sounds like the proper solution. For $300 I'll be getting a full shock rebuild, shaft polishing, revalve (for the heavier spring), new oil and nitro charge, 700lb spring, and a run on their shock dyno to ensure the valving is proper.
Not bad in my book, and seems like a great option for a "new" rear shock on the bike.
From everything I'm gathering, it sounds like solving the valving issue should really make this shock work well on my monster.
The spring, as he-man suggested, is also the 7-inch spring for the Monster itself, not the ~6-inch 999 spring, so I should have a bit more room to screw with preload as well.
All in all, i'm excited.
Going to go for it. I'll keep you all posted on results!
for $300? See you are already 375 into the cost of a used Ohlins on ebay or something.
I dont know too much about it, but im sure the design of the Ohlins, even a stock one is superior to the showa. If the shaft of the shock isnt pitted or actually require to be polished then you are just getting a stock shock with the valve replaced and rebuilt. Which means its really just the same shock as before with the correct valve. atleast with an ohlins or other aftermarket you are getting a better designed one.
Which is why I wouldnt sink too much money into it. I paid $30 bucks for my shock, and $100 for a spring and called it a day. I am looking to upgrade shocks this winter and im looking around for a used ohlins.
i'm feeling you man, I'm just trying to avoid dropping too much $$$... but i know it's worse to waste it on a less-than-desirable upgrade that will only need replaced shortly in the future. lots to think about here. still investigating options designed for MY bike as well.
That sounds like a sweet deal to me [thumbsup]
I'm a little surprised by the 700 lbs spring though.
It's quite stiff for your weight.... current and future.
Quote from: stopintime on February 20, 2012, 10:53:28 AM
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I'm a little surprised by the 700 lbs spring though.
It's quite stiff for your weight.... current and future.
Yes.
I'd say ~600 lb/in spring.
i expressed my desire for a little stiff over a little soft, as I sometimes ride with around 20lbs of stuffed-tailbag. think i should request the 600lb if i go that route?
I'd only fit a 700 lb/in spring if you weighed ~270.
So IMO a 700 spring is *way* beyond a little stiff for you.
You could go with a -39/110 Ohlins spring, that's 628 lb/in.
Keep in mind, different suspension tuners have different ideas about what is "right".
Yea, I figured there'd be some discrepancies between different folks. Now the folks at Traxxion REALLY have me thinking... they priced out a brand new Penske tuned for my application at $660... might just save up some cash and wait it out. Waiting for some pricing from the folks at BeemerShop on a Wilbers unit as well...
Quote from: corey on February 20, 2012, 12:09:03 PM
Yea, I figured there'd be some discrepancies between different folks. Now the folks at Traxxion REALLY have me thinking... they priced out a brand new Penske tuned for my application at $660... might just save up some cash and wait it out. Waiting for some pricing from the folks at BeemerShop on a Wilbers unit as well...
give me that number!
which penske is it? thats right in my price range, but all Penske items i see are in the thousands....
8975 Street Shock. The Street Shock gives you spring preload, rebound and compression damping adjustments. The shock has a nitrogen charge and floating piston to separate the oil and nitrogen so it is not an emulsion shock. Much better performance than an emulsion shock. We will set the shock up with the correct spring and baseline settings so it is ready to bolt on when delivered to you. The 8975 retails for $695 and I can sale it to you for $660.
from everything i see it's new for 2012. a few sites have it for 629.
Corey, how does the 8900E compare to the 8975?
I was looking at one for the hoop style linkage M900. The 8900E only has rebound damping adjustment, correct?
Quote from: koko64 on February 21, 2012, 01:16:23 AM
Corey, how does the 8900E compare to the 8975?
I was looking at one for the hoop style linkage M900. The 8900E only has rebound damping adjustment, correct?
Sorry man,
Haven't the slightest. I would say give the guys at Traxxion Dynamics â€" or any other Penske distributor for that matter â€" a call.
I have essentially zero knowledge for your bike...