Hi All,
So as I mentioned in a previous topic, the bike is not charging my battery. It charges fine on a tender. I have checked the following:
- Voltage across battery terminals with bike warmed up at 3000rpm - 11.81V (too low!)
- Stator coil resistance - 0.4ohm
- Wires from stator are melted (could be old melting, only just noticed as insulation has started falling off) on the stator side of the white connectors.
QUESTIONS
1. Main question is the stator. If something was wrong, how far out of the recommended 0.2-0.4 ohm range would the resistance be? I checked it alongside a new and another second hand stator and the readings were the same. It took a bit of jiggling with the probes to get a good reading, was getting in the range of 0.5-0.3ohms on all three units. This was tested at the connectors.
2. What does the melted stator wires suggest?
3. What else could be causing the battery to not charge. How do I isolate the problem?
Thanks in advance!
If you haven't seen this before read
http://www.mad-ducati.com/ShowPage2.php?PageName=Technical/ChargingOrNot/ChargingOrNot_1.html (http://www.mad-ducati.com/ShowPage2.php?PageName=Technical/ChargingOrNot/ChargingOrNot_1.html)
The melted stator wires are likely due to a short or a dead rectifier/regulator.
Thanks for the great article garryc! I did those checks and the stator checked out fine. Only thing is the article said the max voltage shout be 1/4 the wattage of the system. I was getting 124v~ at 7500rpm which suggests I have at least a 480w system. This seems too high. Should I be worried? Also do I need to load test the battery if it charges on the tender and starts the bike?
I followed the article and found my stator to be fine.I knew battery was good replaced rec/reg and all has been good since. 98 M600
A question about the crispy wires...
The wires on the regulator side are fine. The connector itself is dirty on the outside, maaaaybe a little melty although I don't remember it being any different, and not corroded. On the stator side the wires were crispy, the terminal not corroded and like the other side a bit dirty and maybe a little melty. I've repaired the insulation on the regulator side, and since I'm checking the stator at the terminals can I assume that bit of wiring, the connectors, and hence the connector to regulator wiring is ok?
Thanks!
I've always used this fault tracing for charging issues...
http://www.electrosport.com/technical-resources/diagnosis-center/fault-finding-guide (http://www.electrosport.com/technical-resources/diagnosis-center/fault-finding-guide)
I ended up sectioning out pretty much the entire wiring from the RR to the stator on my 99 Gran Canyon due to this and the lovely small wiring Ducati supplied to the charging system that crispified over time....which was a much less simple job than what you'll have for to deal with....
The connector that connects the stator to the regulator is cheesy and with age can become problematic. High resistance at that connector will cause the wires to overheat from that connection back to the stator. Cut back from the connector until you get to good wire, a little more is you can. Solder new wire of proper gauge or heavier in place of the old crispy wire. Replace the old connector with a new one of good quality able to carry at least 40 amps. Pack connector with dielectric grease. Some folk used to totally eliminate that connector. I prefer not to eliminate the connector since having one makes diagnosis much easier. Your choice. Check the regulator again to make sure it didn't fail.
Quote from: suzyj on March 14, 2012, 12:18:08 AM
The melted stator wires are likely due to a short or a dead rectifier/regulator.
+1. Have you removed your R/R and inspected the bottom? Defects in the potting like bumps, lumps, cracks or discolored ares are a dead giveaway.
CA Cycleworks sells an aftermarket RR that's doing just fine on my monster.
Your stator numbers sound okay. Don't go nuts trying to read to much into them. The values jump around a lot and that makes them problematic for a digital multimeter.
From the numbers I've got now, would you say I should be ordering a new RR, or should I fix the connector and check again?
*Edit* Bottom of the RR looks great, no cracks, melting or anything. It looks a little wavey but it looks like normal resin. In fact the whole RR side of the circuit looks in great condition.
OK so I carried out the Electrosport tests found here:
http://www.electrosport.com/media/pdf/fault-finding-diagram.pdf (http://www.electrosport.com/media/pdf/fault-finding-diagram.pdf)
I got down to the first test of 'B', where I was getting 0.09V to 1.1V depending on how I connected the probes. It was probably more like 1.1V.
On page C the second test failed.
What do you think?
According to my results from: http://www.mad-ducati.com/ShowPage2.php?PageName=Technical/ChargingOrNot/ChargingOrNot_1.html (http://www.mad-ducati.com/ShowPage2.php?PageName=Technical/ChargingOrNot/ChargingOrNot_1.html)
I "can be assured that the rectifier is faulty".
Yes, you need a regulator.
I'd say, for safety, you should get the magnesium left side case cover from Ducati Corsa, and a regulartor, and whatever fixes the thing? But mostly a magnesium case cover, because that's awesome!!!
Quote from: Smokescreen on March 14, 2012, 11:23:15 PM
I'd say, for safety, you should get the magnesium left side case cover from Ducati Corsa, and a regulartor, and whatever fixes the thing? But mostly a magnesium case cover, because that's awesome!!!
Hmmmmm. My side cover IS dirty....
Thanks Howie, I'll order one.
Thanks all of you for your help, I'll let you know if it sorts my problem out!
Quote from: Howley on March 15, 2012, 12:00:27 AM
Thanks all of you for your help, I'll let you know if it sorts my problem out!
IT SHOULD...and make sure you repack the contacts with plenty of dielectric grease!!!
If it's your rectifier, that's easy to reach, only two bolts, and is a direct swap part. I think it's above your horn? It's under the steerer tube and above the horizontal cylinder
Yeah dead easy. Already had it off to look at the back of it.
I'm a bit late, but this is the series of checks I do.
Visual:
Check regulator - single phase (2 yellow wires) often leak black goo.
Check yellow wires from alternator for melting and connector burning. The 3 pin white terminal will melt if used as a two pin connector on a single phase system as per the upgrade kits.
Check other wires out of regulator to battery.
Check maxi fuse.
Battery:
Charge with a real charger (not a trickle charger) and load test once charged. If it won't hold load, replace it. As has been said, you need a fully charged battery to diagnose the system.
Multimeter:
Check for continuity between the two or three alternator wires. Should have some with very low resistance.
Check for continuity between alternator wires and ground. Should be none.
Check for continuity between the regulator output positive (red) wire and the battery positive terminal. This will also show up a blown maxi fuse.
Check for continuity between the regulator output negative (black or green) wires and the battery negative terminal on the 3 phase systems, or between the regulator body/earth wire and the battery negative terminal on a single phase system.
Check alternator ac output between yellow wires. Should get to 70vac fairly quickly. On a 3 phase system check between all combinations of two.
Fit a dc rectifier between the yellows and battery. This directly charges the battery, and will show you whether or not the alternator can produce under load, which the ac test doesn't. Battery voltage should climb over 15v at quite low rpm. Don't hold it above 15v for too long, but certainly make sure it can get there. I usually raise the rpm until I see 16 or 17, and then shut it off straight away.
If everything so far has passed, replace the regulator.
I always use round bullet terminals for the yellow alternator to regulator connection in the same size as the originals. They're very reliable if kept clean and lubed. Do not use flat spade terminals for the yellow alternator to regulator connection on a single phase system. Even when not in a connector, I've never seen them last. Always cover the alternator to regulator terminals with heat shrink too. Pretty much lube every terminal and connector, and heat shrink all bullet or individual terminal connections.
Some people like to solder the yellow alternator to regulator connections. I don't, as it's something you can't undo and reconnect easily without the correct tools if you have to. The round bullet terminals are so reliable I see no point.
Once you've replaced the regulator, check the voltage at the battery with the engine running. You should get 14.3 or so v.
If not, (I always do this check anyway) check the voltage drop between the regulator output positive (red) wire and the battery. This will show you how much voltage drop there is in the wiring loom (including the maxi fuse). It's common to see 0.5V and sometimes more here.
Do the same check for the regulator output negative (black or green) wires and the battery negative terminal on the 3 phase systems, or between the regulator body/earth wire and the battery negative terminal on a single phase system. This is usually much lower, but again definitely worth checking.
I often run a jump wire on a single phase system from regulator body to the battery negative terminal and check the battery voltage with the jump on and off. That will tell you if the earth at the regulator body is bad.
If you get voltage drops I run extra wires from the regulator to the battery. Given I always replace single phase regulators with the 3 phase Shendengan SH579 that is fitted to the 3 phase bikes as std (just cut one of the yellows at the regulator short under the sheath and leave unconnected) you don't need to earth the regulator body. But if there is a wire there you might as well fit it to a mounting screw. Saves people seeing a wire dangling and thinking something is wrong. Just run extra earth wires from the regulator 4 pin connector (2 greens are earth) back to the battery. I usually go to the frame ground point as well if it's on the way, such as on a pre 2002 Monster. Just make sure you scrape the frame paint off and grease the terminals and frame.
For the positive wires I run from the 2 red wires on the regulator 4 pin connector back to the maxi fuse (using new terminals) and from the maxi fuse to the battery. People who know more than me about this stuff say there's no need to include a fuse in this circuit, but I like to keep it if I can (i.e., have the right terminals)
This way you end up with one more terminal per post at the battery, but sometimes you pick up more voltage than you'd expect. With a fresh SH579, a good battery and fresh wiring I always see 14.2 â€" 14.3V at the battery.
I leave the old maxi fuse terminals connected, just cover them with heat shrink and zip tie out of the way. Same with positive (red) and two wire flat connectors that went to the old single phase regulator. That way the loom is still original as some people like them to remain that way.
Note: With the SH579 you lose the battery light on the dash. This upsets some people.
If you use an original style or Electrex or other single phase regulator that uses a reference voltage input (the two wire flat connector has one wire to run the light, the other is a reference) then you need to make sure the reference is accurate. This reference is switched through the ignition switch and runs through the loom. If the reference is low, due to the resistance that naturally builds up in an old loom, the regulator will think the battery voltage is lower than it actually is and it will overcharge the battery. I think it's the white/red wire (or maybe pink?).
You can either check the voltage in this wire or (better) run a jump wire from the battery positive to the connector. I pull the connector apart enough that it's still connected, but you can touch the terminal. Then, with the engine running and while checking the battery voltage, touch the jump wire to the terminal. If the battery voltage drops instantly (and it will if it's overcharging) the easiest fix is to cut the reference wire on the loom side of the two wire flat connector, fit a relay running battery power direct to this wire into the regulator and switch the relay on with the loom side of the reference wire coming from the ignition switch. 906 Paso have done this for years, and I've seen a few Monsters and SS do it.
The SH579 3 phase regulator doesn't use a reference, so fitting one does away with this potential issue.
Regulator has arrived. CA Cycleworks must have some deal with USPS because shipping took only about 6 days to Australia!
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b157/howleylongboards/58b96ca0.jpg)
AND you got yer stickers & snickers! [thumbsup]
Quote from: brad black on March 17, 2012, 02:52:49 AM
I'm a bit late, but this is the series of checks I do.
Visual:
Check regulator - single phase (2 yellow wires) often leak black goo.
Check yellow wires from alternator for melting and connector burning. The 3 pin white terminal will melt if used as a two pin connector on a single phase system as per the upgrade kits.
Check other wires out of regulator to battery.
Check maxi fuse.
Battery:
Charge with a real charger (not a trickle charger) and load test once charged. If it won't hold load, replace it. As has been said, you need a fully charged battery to diagnose the system.
Multimeter:
Check for continuity between the two or three alternator wires. Should have some with very low resistance.
Check for continuity between alternator wires and ground. Should be none.
Check for continuity between the regulator output positive (red) wire and the battery positive terminal. This will also show up a blown maxi fuse.
Check for continuity between the regulator output negative (black or green) wires and the battery negative terminal on the 3 phase systems, or between the regulator body/earth wire and the battery negative terminal on a single phase system.
Check alternator ac output between yellow wires. Should get to 70vac fairly quickly. On a 3 phase system check between all combinations of two.
Fit a dc rectifier between the yellows and battery. This directly charges the battery, and will show you whether or not the alternator can produce under load, which the ac test doesn't. Battery voltage should climb over 15v at quite low rpm. Don't hold it above 15v for too long, but certainly make sure it can get there. I usually raise the rpm until I see 16 or 17, and then shut it off straight away.
If everything so far has passed, replace the regulator.
I always use round bullet terminals for the yellow alternator to regulator connection in the same size as the originals. They're very reliable if kept clean and lubed. Do not use flat spade terminals for the yellow alternator to regulator connection on a single phase system. Even when not in a connector, I've never seen them last. Always cover the alternator to regulator terminals with heat shrink too. Pretty much lube every terminal and connector, and heat shrink all bullet or individual terminal connections.
Some people like to solder the yellow alternator to regulator connections. I don't, as it's something you can't undo and reconnect easily without the correct tools if you have to. The round bullet terminals are so reliable I see no point.
Once you've replaced the regulator, check the voltage at the battery with the engine running. You should get 14.3 or so v.
If not, (I always do this check anyway) check the voltage drop between the regulator output positive (red) wire and the battery. This will show you how much voltage drop there is in the wiring loom (including the maxi fuse). It's common to see 0.5V and sometimes more here.
Do the same check for the regulator output negative (black or green) wires and the battery negative terminal on the 3 phase systems, or between the regulator body/earth wire and the battery negative terminal on a single phase system. This is usually much lower, but again definitely worth checking.
I often run a jump wire on a single phase system from regulator body to the battery negative terminal and check the battery voltage with the jump on and off. That will tell you if the earth at the regulator body is bad.
If you get voltage drops I run extra wires from the regulator to the battery. Given I always replace single phase regulators with the 3 phase Shendengan SH579 that is fitted to the 3 phase bikes as std (just cut one of the yellows at the regulator short under the sheath and leave unconnected) you don't need to earth the regulator body. But if there is a wire there you might as well fit it to a mounting screw. Saves people seeing a wire dangling and thinking something is wrong. Just run extra earth wires from the regulator 4 pin connector (2 greens are earth) back to the battery. I usually go to the frame ground point as well if it's on the way, such as on a pre 2002 Monster. Just make sure you scrape the frame paint off and grease the terminals and frame.
For the positive wires I run from the 2 red wires on the regulator 4 pin connector back to the maxi fuse (using new terminals) and from the maxi fuse to the battery. People who know more than me about this stuff say there's no need to include a fuse in this circuit, but I like to keep it if I can (i.e., have the right terminals)
This way you end up with one more terminal per post at the battery, but sometimes you pick up more voltage than you'd expect. With a fresh SH579, a good battery and fresh wiring I always see 14.2 â€" 14.3V at the battery.
I leave the old maxi fuse terminals connected, just cover them with heat shrink and zip tie out of the way. Same with positive (red) and two wire flat connectors that went to the old single phase regulator. That way the loom is still original as some people like them to remain that way.
Note: With the SH579 you lose the battery light on the dash. This upsets some people.
If you use an original style or Electrex or other single phase regulator that uses a reference voltage input (the two wire flat connector has one wire to run the light, the other is a reference) then you need to make sure the reference is accurate. This reference is switched through the ignition switch and runs through the loom. If the reference is low, due to the resistance that naturally builds up in an old loom, the regulator will think the battery voltage is lower than it actually is and it will overcharge the battery. I think it's the white/red wire (or maybe pink?).
You can either check the voltage in this wire or (better) run a jump wire from the battery positive to the connector. I pull the connector apart enough that it's still connected, but you can touch the terminal. Then, with the engine running and while checking the battery voltage, touch the jump wire to the terminal. If the battery voltage drops instantly (and it will if it's overcharging) the easiest fix is to cut the reference wire on the loom side of the two wire flat connector, fit a relay running battery power direct to this wire into the regulator and switch the relay on with the loom side of the reference wire coming from the ignition switch. 906 Paso have done this for years, and I've seen a few Monsters and SS do it.
The SH579 3 phase regulator doesn't use a reference, so fitting one does away with this potential issue.
pretty much everything one needs to know about your charging system.
Brad, can we add this to the tutorial section?
Installed the new RR. Now getting 14.2V at idle. FIXED!! Thanks guys for all the help!