Ducati Monster Forum

Moto Board => Tech => Topic started by: koko64 on March 16, 2012, 01:07:09 PM

Title: Post 2000 Clutch Slave Cylinder Rebuild
Post by: koko64 on March 16, 2012, 01:07:09 PM
Got hold of a leaking 2004-5 clutch slave.
Opened it up to reveal a Brembo piston seal 05426399. Numbers so small had to get the workshop apprentice to read it [laugh].

If anyone can source these or an upgrade type let me know.
None available in local brake/clutch workshops.

A better seal will make these bloody things rebuildable.
Title: Re: Post 2000 Clutch Slave Cylinder Rebuild
Post by: Speeddog on March 16, 2012, 02:12:14 PM
Quote from: koko64 on March 16, 2012, 01:07:09 PM
~~SNIP~~~
Numbers so small had to get the workshop apprentice to read it [laugh].


I can relate.  [clap]

What is the piston diameter?

Is it just a square section ring, like in a brake caliper?

There's a couple Brembo distributors here in the States...
Title: Re: Post 2000 Clutch Slave Cylinder Rebuild
Post by: koko64 on March 16, 2012, 02:44:40 PM
Yeah square sectioned with the flared wiper type lip.
Looks like those neoprene types with no spring.
It's recessed into the piston which was I think was about 25-26 mm bore size.
Title: Re: Post 2000 Clutch Slave Cylinder Rebuild
Post by: Speeddog on March 16, 2012, 02:46:51 PM
OK, I think brake caliper piston seals won't work, AFAIK they're all in grooves in the body, not the piston.

:-\
Title: Re: Post 2000 Clutch Slave Cylinder Rebuild
Post by: koko64 on March 16, 2012, 04:28:45 PM
Yeah, home now, checked it, 26mm piston. The early piston was 25mm? The later slave felt like it had less throw but definately an easier lever pull.

PBR is the main parts supplier here and they had auto seals a size each side of it that were $2.00 and great quality . [bang]

All the workshops said it was an unusual size seal.
Title: Re: Post 2000 Clutch Slave Cylinder Rebuild
Post by: brad black on March 17, 2012, 04:08:08 AM
in stock.  more than $2.
Title: Re: Post 2000 Clutch Slave Cylinder Rebuild
Post by: ducpainter on March 17, 2012, 04:55:07 AM
Quote from: brad black on March 17, 2012, 04:08:08 AM
in stock.  more than $2.
$3?   [laugh]

I think the one for the early bikes is about $10 US
Title: Re: Post 2000 Clutch Slave Cylinder Rebuild
Post by: koko64 on March 17, 2012, 02:02:50 PM
Quote from: brad black on March 17, 2012, 04:08:08 AM
in stock.  more than $2.

You mean the seal with a complimentary slave cylinder included? Bargain!
Title: Re: Post 2000 Clutch Slave Cylinder Rebuild
Post by: brad black on March 17, 2012, 06:08:18 PM
ducati brisbane had some seals made, and i have some in stock.  i left my laptop at work so don't have the price, they're maybe $40, i forget now.
Title: Re: Post 2000 Clutch Slave Cylinder Rebuild
Post by: koko64 on March 17, 2012, 06:12:25 PM
I thought you were stuffin around. ;)
Great, I'll call you Monday.
Title: Re: Post 2000 Clutch Slave Cylinder Rebuild
Post by: brad black on March 17, 2012, 08:29:11 PM
$35.20.

you need a longer pushrod too.
Title: Re: Post 2000 Clutch Slave Cylinder Rebuild
Post by: ducatiz on March 17, 2012, 08:57:58 PM
Where are you located?

Allied Metric in NJ has EPDM deals of every size and shape.  I swapped the crappy Oring type seal on the clutch piston in a paso with a U-cup and that clutch never worked that well.
Title: Re: Post 2000 Clutch Slave Cylinder Rebuild
Post by: Speeddog on March 17, 2012, 09:57:36 PM
koko64 is in OZ.
Title: Re: Post 2000 Clutch Slave Cylinder Rebuild
Post by: koko64 on March 17, 2012, 10:28:50 PM
Maybe I should order a box full from NJ.
I wonder if they have the later sized seal. A double lipped seal would be nice.

I might email them Monday after I call Brad. Thanks Tiz.

Tiz has an amazing ability to sniff out parts, not unlike j v.

With it's rebuildability, the early slave cylinder is starting to look good. That's what I went back to. It works well enough with the radial m/c I fitted, but the late s/c was even better. Better retrofit seals will help the early design.

You rebuild yours DP?

I'm running a Vee Two drum and basket, Barnett plates and TPO springs. I reckon the Barnett plates like heavier than stock springs. The TPO springs are pretty heavy, more so than the Barnett ones I've tried. I thought I'd lessen the clutch lever effort with the later s/c. The radial m/c has helped alot however.
Title: Re: Post 2000 Clutch Slave Cylinder Rebuild
Post by: ducpainter on March 18, 2012, 04:30:22 AM
My original is on it's 3rd or 4rth rebuild.

Next time I'm gonna go with an evoluzione double o-ring piston I think.
Title: Re: Post 2000 Clutch Slave Cylinder Rebuild
Post by: ducatiz on March 18, 2012, 04:56:04 AM
Quote from: koko64 on March 17, 2012, 10:28:50 PM
Maybe I should order a box full from NJ.
I wonder if they have the later sized seal. A double lipped seal would be nice.

I might email them Monday after I call Brad. Thanks Tiz.

Tiz has an amazing ability to sniff out parts, not unlike j v.


yeah that comes from loving orphan bike makes.

if you can send in the old one they'll measure it and send you some.

they helped me to find several seals for old bikes an d I'm  happy to plug them.
Title: Re: Post 2000 Clutch Slave Cylinder Rebuild
Post by: koko64 on March 23, 2012, 03:49:35 AM
Thanks Tiz.
I checked their website and will make an enquiry about sourcing the equivalent, upgraded seal. I will probably have to send them the seal as you say, so before I do that I'll get one from Brad and finish the slave cylinder rebuild. I polished the bore and piston with metal polish and they came up excellent.

I may just enquire if they have the equivalent available by sending them the serial number. You have be under thirty with good eyesight to have a chance of reading it.

Cheers.
Title: Re: Post 2000 Clutch Slave Cylinder Rebuild
Post by: ducpainter on March 23, 2012, 04:11:43 AM
Quote from: koko64 on March 23, 2012, 03:49:35 AM
Thanks Tiz.
I checked their website and will make an enquiry about sourcing the equivalent, upgraded seal. I will probably have to send them the seal as you say, so before I do that I'll get one from Brad and finish the slave cylinder rebuild. I polished the bore and piston with metal polish and they came up excellent.

I may just enquire if they have the equivalent available by sending them the serial number. You have be under thirty with good eyesight to have a chance of reading it.

Cheers.
I've always used a cylinder hone on mine.

It leaves a nice crosshatch.
Title: Re: Post 2000 Clutch Slave Cylinder Rebuild
Post by: ducatiz on March 23, 2012, 06:07:02 AM
Quote from: koko64 on March 23, 2012, 03:49:35 AM
Thanks Tiz.
I checked their website and will make an enquiry about sourcing the equivalent, upgraded seal. I will probably have to send them the seal as you say, so before I do that I'll get one from Brad and finish the slave cylinder rebuild. I polished the bore and piston with metal polish and they came up excellent.

I may just enquire if they have the equivalent available by sending them the serial number. You have be under thirty with good eyesight to have a chance of reading it.

Cheers.

They manufacture their own, so they would match the dimensions.  They are pretty good about it.

What model is this again, I might have one lying around in my black hole of parts in the garage.  I could just send them mine instead of you doing it long distance... you're in ?  Monaco?  Djibouti?  Tierra del Fuego?
Title: Re: Post 2000 Clutch Slave Cylinder Rebuild
Post by: koko64 on March 23, 2012, 08:26:56 AM
 [laugh] A strange land where the national football code has tackling rules frustratingly halfway between Eurpoean and American football.
Thanks Tiz.
The trick is to find the best fitting bolt head for the multisided "star" cover and then weld a handle or old socket to the shaft. The cover isn't even a large Torx type but may be an attempt to promote an unrebuildable design.
AFAIK it has been the same model since the 2001 upgrade, with 26mm piston and rear vent hole.  Mine has am 04 marking. Brad speaks of the vent hole upgrade/recall in 01 or 02, on his site. I.ll ask him.
Can anyone confirm?


DP, in all honesty I never thought to hone the bore unless it was scored. The guys in the brake workshop suggested 1200 wet and dry and Autosole, or a fine polishing brush on the dremel to remove scoring.
Title: Re: Post 2000 Clutch Slave Cylinder Rebuild
Post by: ducatiz on March 23, 2012, 09:11:07 AM
Quote from: koko64 on March 23, 2012, 08:26:56 AM
[laugh] A strange land where the national football code has tackling rules frustratingly halfway between Eurpoean and American football.
Thanks Tiz.
The trick is to find the best fitting bolt head for the multisided "star" cover and then weld a handle or old socket to the shaft. The cover isn't even a large Torx type but may be an attempt to promote an unrebuildable design.
AFAIK it has been the same model since the 2001 upgrade, with 26mm piston and rear vent hole.  Mine has am 04 marking. Brad speaks of the vent hole upgrade/recall in 01 or 02, on his site. I.ll ask him.
Can anyone confirm?

I'm sure I have one and I may just get out the dremel and get medieval on it.
Title: Re: Post 2000 Clutch Slave Cylinder Rebuild
Post by: koko64 on March 24, 2012, 03:13:23 AM
Hey Tiz,
That would sure make it easier for me. I would buy a bunch of seals at the right price.

I spoke with a specialist seals vendor and he said that even quality seals are being eaten by some of the newer additives in some brands of brake fluid. His view was you could be plain unlucky with fluid/seal compatibility.  He suggested using seals made of a material called AFLAM ( if I remember correctly). Hr said this particular material was was resistant to the new additives. This vendor could get the seals made for $30 each.

DP, where do you get your seal kits from for the early m/c?



Title: Re: Post 2000 Clutch Slave Cylinder Rebuild
Post by: ducpainter on March 24, 2012, 03:29:35 AM
Earl seal is available from Ducati.

I've always just used a hone...fast and easy.
Title: Re: Post 2000 Clutch Slave Cylinder Rebuild
Post by: koko64 on March 24, 2012, 01:19:40 PM
One thing the early s/c has in it's favour is a nice long throw.
Another thing is the relative quality of the push rod. The old short one looks hard chromed to reduce stiction while the later long pushrod looks like it was made from pot metal in comparison.
A $10 rebuild kit from Ducati is reasonable too.
Title: Re: Post 2000 Clutch Slave Cylinder Rebuild
Post by: ducpainter on March 24, 2012, 01:32:18 PM
Quote from: koko64 on March 24, 2012, 01:19:40 PM
One thing the early s/c has in it's favour is a nice long throw.
Another thing is the relative quality of the push rod. The old short one looks hard chromed to reduce stiction while the later long pushrod looks like it was made from pot metal in comparison.
A $10 rebuild kit from Ducati is reasonable too.
The 'kit' consists of one seal.
Title: Re: Post 2000 Clutch Slave Cylinder Rebuild
Post by: koko64 on March 24, 2012, 04:47:57 PM
Does it come in an oem box?
Title: Re: Post 2000 Clutch Slave Cylinder Rebuild
Post by: ducpainter on March 24, 2012, 04:57:35 PM
Quote from: koko64 on March 24, 2012, 04:47:57 PM
Does it come in an oem box plastic envelope?
Yup... ;D
Title: Re: Post 2000 Clutch Slave Cylinder Rebuild
Post by: brad black on March 24, 2012, 06:08:47 PM
all the late ones i've pulled apart have been spotless and unmarked.  there's no evidence of any reason why they would leak.  they're not like an early one wear the crap is obvious.
Title: Re: Post 2000 Clutch Slave Cylinder Rebuild
Post by: koko64 on March 24, 2012, 07:12:43 PM
The new type at least has the oring. It wins on gunk protection.

Mine was full of crap which makes me think it was used on an older bike, rendering the oring useless.

Thanks for the tip on getting a fatter oring, easy to overlook that.
Title: Re: Post 2000 Clutch Slave Cylinder Rebuild
Post by: koko64 on March 25, 2012, 02:52:07 AM
DP, Tiz, SD, Brad
Any reason why an appropriately sized o ring in the correct material wouldn't work? It seems they were plentiful and cheap in the auto brake/clutch workshops.
I will go back to the seals specialist I talked to and see if I can trial an o ring . Could be a cheap fix.
Title: Re: Post 2000 Clutch Slave Cylinder Rebuild
Post by: ducpainter on March 25, 2012, 04:12:13 AM
Quote from: koko64 on March 25, 2012, 02:52:07 AM
DP, Tiz, SD, Brad
Any reason why an appropriately sized o ring in the correct material wouldn't work? It seems they were plentiful and cheap in the auto brake/clutch workshops.
I will go back to the seals specialist I talked to and see if I can trial an o ring . Could be a cheap fix.

Evoluzione uses 2 standard o-rings on their 'upgrade' pistons.

It'll probably work...not sure how long.
Title: Re: Post 2000 Clutch Slave Cylinder Rebuild
Post by: koko64 on March 25, 2012, 04:33:25 AM
What kind of seal in the early model stocker? O ring?
Title: Re: Post 2000 Clutch Slave Cylinder Rebuild
Post by: ducpainter on March 25, 2012, 04:34:59 AM
Quote from: koko64 on March 25, 2012, 04:33:25 AM
What kind of seal in the early model stocker? O ring?
IIRC it's a single lipped seal.
Title: Re: Post 2000 Clutch Slave Cylinder Rebuild
Post by: koko64 on March 25, 2012, 04:49:31 AM
Thanks
I'll let you know what seal I end up with and how long/if it works.
Cheers
Title: Re: Post 2000 Clutch Slave Cylinder Rebuild
Post by: Düb Lüv on March 25, 2012, 10:56:28 AM
I did the evoluzione upgrade and it still seems to weap a little fluid still after the rebuild. Ill probably pull it apart again. also i just went back to find them and it seems that evoluzione went out of business.
Title: Re: Post 2000 Clutch Slave Cylinder Rebuild
Post by: koko64 on March 25, 2012, 11:02:21 AM
Hey DL
What's in the upgrade kit?
Title: Re: Post 2000 Clutch Slave Cylinder Rebuild
Post by: ducpainter on March 25, 2012, 11:04:10 AM
Quote from: koko64 on March 25, 2012, 11:02:21 AM
Hey DL
What's in the upgrade kit?
Piston with two o-rings installed.
Title: Re: Post 2000 Clutch Slave Cylinder Rebuild
Post by: koko64 on March 25, 2012, 11:07:51 AM
What did they want for that? Is it for the old or new slave cylinder?
Title: Re: Post 2000 Clutch Slave Cylinder Rebuild
Post by: ducpainter on March 25, 2012, 11:12:00 AM
Quote from: koko64 on March 25, 2012, 11:07:51 AM
What did they want for that? Is it for the old or new slave cylinder?
I believe they sold for about $20 US.

Old style.
Title: Re: Post 2000 Clutch Slave Cylinder Rebuild
Post by: koko64 on March 25, 2012, 11:28:58 AM
Bugger it.
That late model slave cylinder is getting an o ring, possibly in AFLAN.
Title: Re: Post 2000 Clutch Slave Cylinder Rebuild
Post by: Düb Lüv on March 25, 2012, 11:30:26 AM
Quote from: ducpainter on March 25, 2012, 11:12:00 AM
I believe they sold for about $20 US.

Old style.

From my invoice.
$30usd + shipping $6.00usd
Part # 90050-03
Replacement piston for 91-2000 external slave bikes

I saw some of evoluzione's parts on eBay. I believe it's then selling off inventory.
Here's the sellers sales page
http://shop.mobileweb.ebay.com/searchresults;PdsSession=4afa762f1360a5abe8c787a7fffcdeb5?cmd=SSID&pg=1&sellerId=gc748s (http://shop.mobileweb.ebay.com/searchresults;PdsSession=4afa762f1360a5abe8c787a7fffcdeb5?cmd=SSID&pg=1&sellerId=gc748s)
Title: Re: Post 2000 Clutch Slave Cylinder Rebuild
Post by: koko64 on March 25, 2012, 11:49:13 AM
Not bad with a new piston included.
Title: Re: Post 2000 Clutch Slave Cylinder Rebuild
Post by: ducpainter on March 25, 2012, 11:50:38 AM
Quote from: koko64 on March 25, 2012, 11:49:13 AM
Not bad with a new piston included.

Aren't the later slaves larger id?

Sleeve and the A/M piston and o-rings? [evil]
Title: Re: Post 2000 Clutch Slave Cylinder Rebuild
Post by: koko64 on March 25, 2012, 11:55:27 AM
They are selling the slave cylinders for $125 and the piston/seal kit for $22.50.
Nows the time..
Title: Re: Post 2000 Clutch Slave Cylinder Rebuild
Post by: koko64 on March 25, 2012, 12:08:56 PM
Quote from: ducpainter on March 25, 2012, 11:50:38 AM
Aren't the later slaves larger id?

Sleeve and the A/M piston and o-rings? [evil]

Yeah I'm guessing a mm or two bigger at 26mm. Spose customers wanted an easier clutch pull.  I'll see the local guy for some o ring type seals for the late model slave. Wouldn't be hard to machine another o ring groove in the late model slave piston.  A mate would do it for a beer. I could use off the shelf seals.

Pounce on those ebay deals guys.



Title: Re: Post 2000 Clutch Slave Cylinder Rebuild
Post by: koko64 on March 25, 2012, 02:02:54 PM
You guys get a bargain?
Title: Re: Post 2000 Clutch Slave Cylinder Rebuild
Post by: koko64 on April 05, 2012, 01:39:50 AM
Just a correction, the latest seal material is called AFLAS. It is the replacement for epdm/n which is sensitive to some of the new additives in brake/clutch fluid.

Some of the late oem and aftermarket slave cylinder failures may be due to these new additives and not design flaws or faulty seals. Could be a case of one technology jumping ahead of another in some cases.

I will get a spare new style oem seal from Brad and send the old one away to be made in AFLAN for $30 locally or probably cheaper via Ducatiz's contact. But I also do intend getting  grooves machined into the piston of the late style oem unit to accommodate the two $1-00 o rings that I have sourced locally. They were epdn however.

So I am looking for other leaky late style slave cylinders to do some R&D. Maybe the oem type seal and at least one o ring will make it leak proof.

I'll check in with Brad and Tiz after Easter/Passover.

Cheers.