I switched to Rotella T6 in my 696 over the winter and was able to ride it today. I noticed that during high RPM upshifts, the clutch will slip big time causing the RPM to spike up momentarily.
I used T6 because it seems to have favorable reviews among other wet clutch motorcycle riders, including Ducati riders. Has anyone else experienced this? Do I need to go to M1 V-Twin 20W-50 synthetic or Motul/Silkolene xW-50? The T6 meets JASO MA, so I'm not sure why the clutch would do that during an upshift. Downshifts seem fine, as is WOT at high RPM in gear.
I used Rotella T6 in my 696 (2011) last fall but did not notice any clutch slippage. Not sure what is going on in your situation, but it is possible that the lighter weight coupled with being synthetic could be causing some slippage. I'm not critiquing your riding style (you should see my chicken strips...) but it could be technique as well. From my reading, it seems that many slippage issues are a result of technique and have nothing to do with the oil.
If it helps, I switched to Rotella T 15w-40 and could not be happier, used it during our heat wave last summer (North Texas) and no issues. Just finished a valve lash check and the heads were clean. Change it every 2,000 miles.
If you want to stay with synthetic, Mobile 1 15w-50 is an excellent choice as well. You'll get a million opinions on oil, but if you stick with a reputable brand in the proper weight range (even automotive), I don't think you can go wrong...
Thanks, I think you're right about technique. I'll keep an eye on it, because it didn't make sense for the oil to cause slippage only during upshifts.
It's during upshifts that the clutch is hit by max torque, so that will be where slipping occurs.
Bike mileage?
IMO 5-40 oil is too light, at least for a wet clutch. Try 20-50, maybe even semi synthetic....
Synthetic isn't going to be the problem. Your bike comes from the factory with synthetic. If the oil is indeed the culprit, I would be more inclined to suspect it's due to your wet clutch not liking an additive in that particular oil. Perhaps try a moto-specific oil.
Also, the oil thread is a good read: http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=1912.0 (http://www.ducatimonsterforum.org/index.php?topic=1912.0)
(I know my name's on the posts, but I didn't write it, only transcribed and edited.)
QuoteSynthetic isn't going to be the problem. Your bike comes from the factory with synthetic.
Spot on, sometimes my mind is doing too many things at once. I'm still on the fence regarding additives affecting clutch operation, specifically moly. To date, I have yet to find any serious empirical evidence showing this to be a problem and if someone here can attest to this being an issue, I'd love to know about.
We used automotive oils in motocross bikes for some time (10w-30 typical) with the much discussed moly without issue, and this was with some SERIOUS clutch abuse.
Seems to me the vast majority of clutch issues are more likely worn springs and/or technique, more likely the latter...
Quote from: zarn02 on March 17, 2012, 06:33:29 PM
Synthetic isn't going to be the problem. Your bike comes from the factory with synthetic. If the oil is indeed the culprit, I would be more inclined to suspect it's due to your wet clutch not liking an additive in that particular oil. Perhaps try a moto-specific oil.
Rotella T6 (5w40) is JASO-MA. So is Shell Rotella T 15W-40 (only the former is full synth)
I have used Mobil1 "High Mileage" with zero problems. The High Mileage version does not have friction modifiers and tastes the same as the Mobil1 10w40 MX4T
Quote from: ducatiz on March 17, 2012, 07:13:09 PM
I have used Mobil1 "High Mileage" with zero problems. The High Mileage version does not have friction modifiers and tastes the same as the Mobil1 10w40 MX4T
You are drinking the stuff now?! ;) Where did you get the info on the friction modifiers? Which "High Mileage" are you using?
Son just changed the oil in his ST4s today with 15W50 which is the same stuff I'd use in my V8's if I weren't using BG because the 15W50 has 1300 ppm ZDDP. With a dry clutch this is a no brainer, but with a wet clutch... http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf (http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-English/MotorOil/Files/Mobil_1_Product_Guide.pdf)
Mobil 1 stopped making Racing 4T 15W50 which they made for Triumph. I used my last gallon for the last change on my Bonneville and was looking for what to use next as I wouldn't put the now recommended Castrol in a lawn mower. ;) Mobil 1 says to use 20W50 V-Twin but I'm not convinced it has the same shock protection the 4T had. http://www.mobiloil.com/usa-english/motoroil/car_care/askmobil/Oil_for_Triumph_Bonneville.aspx (http://www.mobiloil.com/usa-english/motoroil/car_care/askmobil/Oil_for_Triumph_Bonneville.aspx)
Of course Donnie uses 15W50 Redline which he buys by the drum because it never let him down in all his years of racing. No wet clutch problems with it according to Donnie either. I realize it's an ester-based and a different full synthetic animal. http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=6&pcid=21 (http://www.redlineoil.com/product.aspx?pid=6&pcid=21)
Quote from: Curmudgeon on March 17, 2012, 08:44:57 PM
You are drinking the stuff now?! ;) Where did you get the info on the friction modifiers? Which "High Mileage" are you using?
i am a sommelier of fine oils
this one: http://www.mobiloil.com/usa-english/motoroil/oils/mobil_1_high_mileage_10w-40.aspx (http://www.mobiloil.com/usa-english/motoroil/oils/mobil_1_high_mileage_10w-40.aspx)
The ONLY thing I've noticed is that the clutch in my S2R is actually more "Grabby"..
I've considered sending it out for analysis, but so far so good.
I saw it referred to on several bike forums and gave it a try.
Quote
Mobil 1 stopped making Racing 4T 15W50 which they made for Triumph. I used my last gallon for the last change on my Bonneville and was looking for what to use next as I wouldn't put the now recommended Castrol in a lawn mower. ;) Mobil 1 says to use 20W50 V-Twin but I'm not convinced it has the same shock protection the 4T had. http://www.mobiloil.com/usa-english/motoroil/car_care/askmobil/Oil_for_Triumph_Bonneville.aspx (http://www.mobiloil.com/usa-english/motoroil/car_care/askmobil/Oil_for_Triumph_Bonneville.aspx)
Have you ever thought about mixing the M1 10w40 and the 20w50? You'd end up with a 15w45 if you mix it 1:1.. yes, i know it doesn't EXACTLY work like that, but it can't hurt to try. they are both JASO/4T (wait is the 20w50 4t too?)
Quote from: ducatiz on March 17, 2012, 08:49:15 PM
Have you ever thought about mixing the M1 10w40 and the 20w50? You'd end up with a 15w45 if you mix it 1:1.. yes, i know it doesn't EXACTLY work like that, but it can't hurt to try. they are both JASO/4T (wait is the 20w50 4t too?)
Hmmm... If 4T is just = motorcycle oil, then V-twin must be 4T as well. The Mobil 1 blurb on V-Twin states that it's more stable at high temps "because the rear cylinder of a v-twin usually runs hotter than the front at low speeds". That's logical enough. The T-100 is rarely revved past 6,000 and rarely sits in traffic for extended periods, so I might just try the V-Twin or possibly mix 1:3. Would be less inclined to try this on a 9,000 RPM Ducati of course.
Your 800 have the same ATPC clutch as my 796?
I'm apprehensive about trying non-JASO MA spec oils in my ATPC wet clutch in the 696, even though a VOA might show a low moly content. I've heard mixed results using M1 V-Twin 20W-50 in the Ducs.
Quote from: Curmudgeon on March 17, 2012, 09:53:56 PM
Hmmm... If 4T is just = motorcycle oil, then V-twin must be 4T as well. The Mobil 1 blurb on V-Twin states that it's more stable at high temps "because the rear cylinder of a v-twin usually runs hotter than the front at low speeds". That's logical enough. The T-100 is rarely revved past 6,000 and rarely sits in traffic for extended periods, so I might just try the V-Twin or possibly mix 1:3. Would be less inclined to try this on a 9,000 RPM Ducati of course.
Your 800 have the same ATPC clutch as my 796?
that's the one. I've contemplated swapping it with a regular one from an 800SS.
Quote from: metroplex on March 18, 2012, 04:01:51 AM
I'm apprehensive about trying non-JASO MA spec oils in my ATPC wet clutch in the 696, even though a VOA might show a low moly content. I've heard mixed results using M1 V-Twin 20W-50 in the Ducs.
you can try it and then drain it if you no likey
At first I thought it was my technique, my clown feet size 12 boots are a PITA to fit into that shifter area and my first time out after the winter might be rusty. But I looked at my datalogs from last summer and I usually dropped the throttle to about 11% or less after I clicked the upshift and the RPMs wouldn't spike.
I looked closely at yesterday's datalog and it shows the RPMs spiking as I dropped the throttle. This is something new, and the difference is I'm using Rotella T6 instead of whatever the dealer/factory used.
I've attached snapshots of 3 areas where the RPM spikes occured. I had to zoom in otherwise it looks like I'm pegging the throttle open during the upshifts. If it is indeed my technique, it feels like the previous oil would allow the clutch to grip better after an upshift.
(http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k395/fusionvic/run1.jpg)
(http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k395/fusionvic/run2.jpg)
(http://i325.photobucket.com/albums/k395/fusionvic/run3.jpg)
Quote from: ducatiz on March 18, 2012, 04:38:57 AM
that's the one. I've contemplated swapping it with a regular one from an 800SS.
No temptation here as mine appears to work as advertised. Never had a hint of chirp from the rear wheel on rapid downshifts. Admittedly, I match revs for the most part and have always preferred the engine to the brakes. ;) What are brakes?! 8)
BTW, I had a few incidents of howl (light load, in traffic, hot engine) from the clutch on the factory fill which disappeared after Donnie refilled mine with the Redline 15W50. Go figure...
Quote from: zarn02 on March 17, 2012, 06:33:29 PM
(I know my name's on the posts, but I didn't write it, only transcribed and edited.)
I know I've thanked you before, but thanks again for doing that. Without your efforts most or all of George's work and his legacy would be lost.
Bob
Just an update, I bought some Mobil 1 V-Twin 20W-50 and found out I only need about 2 quarts to get it in-between the low/max marks. The oil filter doesn't take much oil, so buying 3 quarts might even be overkill.
The 20W-50 feels thicker. During startup, the engine takes much longer to warm up and during this time, it feels slightly more "lopey". Once I'm on the road, the shifts are like butter. I'm clicking away at the upshifts, and even during 9000 RPM speed shifts using the clutch, there's no "cat screeching" or clutch slippage even after looking at the new datalogs.
I don't think my 696 liked the Rotella T6 5W-40. It was either too thin, or had too much friction modifiers. The fact both the T6 and M1 V-Twin meet JASO MA suggests that my 696 did not like the thinner oil.
i'm no oil expert, and won't pretend to be one. a 20w-50 sounds pretty heavy for our bikes. keep in mind that our desmo L-twins rev much higher than the typical V-twin that the particular Mobil1 is made for. I imagine you'll have no issues, but on your next oil change, give Mobil 1 Racing 4T (10w-40) a shot. Formerly Mobil1 MX4T. I've been using it for 5 years now in my S2R800 (same ATPC setup) with ZERO issues, and great results....
aside from that one time i kicked over a quart of it with the cap off... nothing like watching $10 spill allover the floor of your garage...
The bottle looks just like that Vtwin you bought, only it has a "racey looking sport bike" on it.
(http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/wcsstore/CVWEB/staticproductimage//N4019C/large/8026541_mbi_98hc75_pri_larg.jpg)
Quote from: corey on March 19, 2012, 05:52:55 AM
i'm no oil expert, and won't pretend to be one. a 20w-50 sounds pretty heavy for our bikes. keep in mind that our desmo L-twins rev much higher than the typical V-twin that the particular Mobil1 is made for. I imagine you'll have no issues, but on your next oil change, give Mobil 1 Racing 4T (10w-40) a shot. Formerly Mobil1 MX4T. I've been using it for 5 years now in my S2R800 (same ATPC setup) with ZERO issues, and great results....
I used that for a few years in my S2R until I tried the Mobil1 10w40 High Mileage. I'm going to send a sample of each out soon and see what the comparison is, my guess is they are pretty similar.
I thought long and hard about that one. But Ducati specified 10W-40 in the air cooled bikes as well as the water cooled bikes until 2008. If you read the owner's manuals for the Monster from 2001 to 2007, they all specified 10W-40. Starting in 2008, all the bikes were specified to use 15W-50, including the water cooled bikes like the D16RR Desmosedici RR and Monster. I went and checked on what changes were made to the Monster for the 696, and the biggest change I see was the elimination of ball bearings for the cams.
The Harley V-Twins can rev fairly high as well, my 696 is only going up to about 9500-10k from what I recall, not exactly ultra high like an inline 4.
Quote from: metroplex on March 19, 2012, 06:55:14 AM
I thought long and hard about that one. But Ducati specified 10W-40 in the air cooled bikes as well as the water cooled bikes until 2008. If you read the owner's manuals for the Monster from 2001 to 2007, they all specified 10W-40. Starting in 2008, all the bikes were specified to use 15W-50, including the water cooled bikes like the D16RR Desmosedici RR and Monster. I went and checked on what changes were made to the Monster for the 696, and the biggest change I see was the elimination of ball bearings for the cams.
The Harley V-Twins can rev fairly high as well, my 696 is only going up to about 9500-10k from what I recall, not exactly ultra high like an inline 4.
My owner's manual for my S2R lists multiple oils available. They shipped it with 10w40, but just like a car, the type you use should depend on the ambient temps for the season. When it was sold, I used T6 5w40 with no problems. When it was super hot out, I used Repsol 15w40 from Honda. I kept 10w40 in it most of the time though. I would also do nutter things like drain off a quart of the 10w40 and add 5w40 when it was cooler or vice versay with the 15w40 when it was hotter. I doubt I've ever run with "straight" 10w40 for more than a month.
In all of the Ducati owner manuals, they specify one weight of oil, then give that 1970s car oil viscosity chart. It said 10W-40 for pre-08, and 15W-50 for 08-up. I'm not sure what year your S2R was, but I looked at the 02-07 manuals and they all said 10W-40. In my 09 manual for the 696, it says 15W-50 and then gives the 1970s car viscosity chart.
I don't switch oils depending on the temperature in my car, I just use one oil year-round from -10F to 100F. I don't like the idea of a 20W-50 and would prefer a 15W-50 as per the manual, but I can't find a motorcycle-specific 15W-50 synthetic locally at a reasonable price. I don't plan to ride below 40F ambient, so I think it'll be ok?
Quote from: metroplex on March 19, 2012, 07:14:10 AM
In all of the Ducati owner manuals, they specify one weight of oil, then give that 1970s car oil viscosity chart. It said 10W-40 for pre-08, and 15W-50 for 08-up. I'm not sure what year your S2R was, but I looked at the 02-07 manuals and they all said 10W-40. In my 09 manual for the 696, it says 15W-50 and then gives the 1970s car viscosity chart.
I don't switch oils depending on the temperature in my car, I just use one oil year-round from -10F to 100F. I don't like the idea of a 20W-50 and would prefer a 15W-50 as per the manual, but I can't find a motorcycle-specific 15W-50 synthetic locally at a reasonable price. I don't plan to ride below 40F ambient, so I think it'll be ok?
Motul has a 15w50 in the US..
Quote from: corey on March 19, 2012, 05:52:55 AM
(http://shop.advanceautoparts.com/wcsstore/CVWEB/staticproductimage//N4019C/large/8026541_mbi_98hc75_pri_larg.jpg)
[thumbsup] [thumbsup]
Roger on the Motul, but I'd have to order it. The VOA's showed lots of moly and less additives. I also needed a COTS solution right away. Will the V-Twin 20W-50 harm the 696 engine in the long-run?
Quote from: metroplex on March 19, 2012, 07:49:38 AM
Roger on the Motul, but I'd have to order it. The VOA's showed lots of moly and less additives. I also needed a COTS solution right away. Will the V-Twin 20W-50 harm the 696 engine in the long-run?
I doubt it as long as you warm it up but I would cut it with the 10w40 if it was me. It's really too heavy of a startup weight.
Quote from: ducatiz on March 19, 2012, 09:33:04 AM
I doubt it as long as you warm it up but I would cut it with the 10w40 if it was me. It's really too heavy of a startup weight.
I agree.
The old bikes liked 20/50 because there were only plain bearings on the rods.
The new bikes w/ plain cam bearings wouldn't fare very well I wouldn't think.
I checked the parts catalog for my 696 and there are no mechanical bearings for the camshafts. According to Webbikeworld: "The camshafts now rotate on bearing surfaces directly in the cylinder head and are supported by means of oil pressure. The elimination of the bearings has enabled the weight of this unit to be reduced considerably and the layout simplified."
Quote from: metroplex on March 19, 2012, 09:40:19 AM
I checked the parts catalog for my 696 and there are no mechanical bearings for the camshafts. According to Webbikeworld: "The camshafts now rotate on bearing surfaces directly in the cylinder head and are supported by means of oil pressure. The elimination of the bearings has enabled the weight of this unit to be reduced considerably and the layout simplified."
i wonder if it is just polished or if there is any coating on the bearing.
years ago when i did vw engines, i got the cam and crank bearings and lifters coated in a bake-on SFL by HPC in Oklahoma. The difference was noticeable almost right away, oil temps were about 20-30 deg less in an otherwise stock bug engine.
the 20w will actually cling more to the vertical head but it's really too heavy for that application.
In a general sense you're going to want an oil which has a viscosity of about 15 centistokes as measured at the oil pick-up (we'll call it the "pan" for convenience).
For cold start, this means that even a 0W-__ oil is too thick, so you want the first number to be as low as possible. If you're going to run a __W-40, I recommend a 0W-40. Even at 104 degrees fahrenheit (the temperature at which the "cold start" measurement is taken), 0W is still about 5 centistokes too high.
For operating temps, things are going to vary quite a bit. Keep in mind the location of your oil sensor, as well. On my 1100 the sensor is at the rear cylinder, right near the head. This means that the temperature delta between it and at the pan is approximately 40 degrees. So at a typical, mid-range summer or in-traffic reading of 300 degrees, the oil in the pan is around 260. At that temperature you want a __W-60 oil to maintain the proper viscosity. The problem with that is that it'll be far too viscous at lower temperatures, and especially at cold start, so they compromise and recommend the __W-50, which can handle the higher temps better than __W-40, while minimizing excessive thickness at lower temperatures.
Reference the following charts:
http://www.kewengineering.co.uk/Auto_oils/images/Table_5_viscosity_comparison_chart.jpg (http://www.kewengineering.co.uk/Auto_oils/images/Table_5_viscosity_comparison_chart.jpg)
http://www.elephantracing.com/images/techtopic/oiltemperature/viscosityvstemperature400.gif (http://www.elephantracing.com/images/techtopic/oiltemperature/viscosityvstemperature400.gif)
Water-cooled engines, of course, can maintain a consistent temperature for the oil of around 210 degrees, so a __W-40 oil will always be the correct choice.
Even the water cooled superbikes seemed to spec 15W-50 in the Ducati owner's manuals from 08-up, so that is really confusing.
I asked Mobil about what oil to use in my 696 and they said 20W-50 V-Twin is the correct Mobil oil.
BTW, I looked at the datalogs and with the T6, the RPMs would spike by 1000 RPM for 0.2-0.4 seconds. I think there is still some T6 in the clutches, because I'm slipping by a max of 50-100 RPM for under 0.1 seconds - probably nothing to worry about. Looking at last year's data, I had no noticeable slip according to the datalogs.
Quote from: metroplex on March 19, 2012, 01:01:11 PM
Even the water cooled superbikes seemed to spec 15W-50 in the Ducati owner's manuals from 08-up, so that is really confusing.
I asked Mobil about what oil to use in my 696 and they said 20W-50 V-Twin is the correct Mobil oil.
BTW, I looked at the datalogs and with the T6, the RPMs would spike by 1000 RPM for 0.2-0.4 seconds. I think there is still some T6 in the clutches, because I'm slipping by a max of 50-100 RPM for under 0.1 seconds - probably nothing to worry about. Looking at last year's data, I had no noticeable slip according to the datalogs.
in a wet clutch, the plates are spinning pretty fast and they actually spin off most of the oil pretty quickly. if you've changed the oil, you can be sure the T6 isn't lurking around, it's fully diluted
Hmmm, well I still had some T6 in the oil filter but it isn't a lot. I didn't want to mess with that can of worms since the KN-153 was newly installed and isn't leaking. I'll just keep an eye on it for now, the spikes weren't all that big or long in duration and I certainly didn't feel or hear anything while performing the shifts.
It could have just been an anomaly, but when I dealt with clutch packs in my Ford limited slip differentials, they needed to soak in friction modifiers before installation.
Quote from: ducatiz on March 19, 2012, 09:49:17 AM
i wonder if it is just polished or if there is any coating on the bearing.
years ago when i did vw engines, i got the cam and crank bearings and lifters coated in a bake-on SFL by HPC in Oklahoma. The difference was noticeable almost right away, oil temps were about 20-30 deg less in an otherwise stock bug engine.
the 20w will actually cling more to the vertical head but it's really too heavy for that application.
It isn't coated.
Plain aluminum.
It should be cold enough today to try a cold start (30-40F) with the 20W-50. I rode it again over the weekend and the shifts are fine and smooth. I did notice the engine sounds kind of loud while idling even when the oil was at operating temp (260F-280F).
So what was the final verdict on the Mobil 1 20w50?
It works great. I talked to the dealership owner and he recommended even going to 10W-60 for the Monster engine in the summer.
I think aside from the fact that Shell Advance Ultra 4 15W-50 isn't available in the US, is the fact that many Ducati owners of pre-08 models insist that 10W-40 is the correct weight oil because that is what it says in their manual. For 08-up Ducati models, the manual says 15W-50 and the viscosity chart is also there which confuses many people. I think the engine feels/shifts properly with the Mobil 1 20W-50, although I'd probably be more comfortable in the cold with a 15W-50 or 10W-50.
The viscosity chart shouldn't confuse people (i'm sure it does though) provided you're in the right temperature range.
Quote from: metroplex on June 15, 2012, 09:09:06 AM
It works great. I talked to the dealership owner and he recommended even going to 10W-60 for the Monster engine in the summer.
I think aside from the fact that Shell Advance Ultra 4 15W-50 isn't available in the US, is the fact that many Ducati owners of pre-08 models insist that 10W-40 is the correct weight oil because that is what it says in their manual. For 08-up Ducati models, the manual says 15W-50 and the viscosity chart is also there which confuses many people. I think the engine feels/shifts properly with the Mobil 1 20W-50, although I'd probably be more comfortable in the cold with a 15W-50 or 10W-50.
Glad to hear. Thanks for the update. Seems like 15w50 (in any brand) is pretty hard to come by locally and most shops recommend 10w40 even the dealership uses 10w40 (Elf). Maybe I'll give the Mobil1 20w50 a shot on my next oil change.
Anyone with experience using Motul 7100 20w50 in an 08+? (search pulled no results)
take a look at this:
http://www.ducati.ms/forums/80-hall-wisdom/74198-case-using-mobil-1-15w-50-automobile-oil-motorcycle.html (http://www.ducati.ms/forums/80-hall-wisdom/74198-case-using-mobil-1-15w-50-automobile-oil-motorcycle.html)
I'm using it but I have a dry clutch... but it should be ok with wet clutches too as it doesnt have any friction modifiers.
Quote from: thought on June 15, 2012, 04:23:10 PM
take a look at this:
http://www.ducati.ms/forums/80-hall-wisdom/74198-case-using-mobil-1-15w-50-automobile-oil-motorcycle.html (http://www.ducati.ms/forums/80-hall-wisdom/74198-case-using-mobil-1-15w-50-automobile-oil-motorcycle.html)
I'm using it but I have a dry clutch... but it should be ok with wet clutches too as it doesnt have any friction modifiers.
Vincent,
What you are using is the oil Mobil 1 makes for older cars which need 1200 ppm ZDDP for their valve trains. In your bike it should be fine. I'd use it in my Morgan and D-90 if I couldn't get BG Sheer Power.
As for wet clutches, it's a toss-up since Mobil 1 doesn't give it a motorcycle rating. Too bad they fell out with Triumph and no longer make 15W50 Racing 4T. Mobil 1 now suggests using 20W50 V-Twin for that application. Bikes ridden in freezing temps should probably use the 10W40 4T. (Not many people I should think! ;))
Read this ADV post. Most of it is accurate. http://www.advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4482605&postcount=13 (http://www.advrider.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4482605&postcount=13)
BTW, my dealer uses automotive Red Line 15W50. Based on his years of racing, he uses nothing else. It's a more expensive ester-based synthetic and he knows it to be harmless to wet clutches.
Regards!
Thanks for the info William [thumbsup]
I was thinking about switching to Motul or one of the other fully ester based oils... but Amazon had a great deal on the 15w-50, around $50 for 6 quarts and a $12 rebate with free shipping. And I've finally started to do some track days so I wanted a heavier weight oil in there for a bit more protection vs the Rotella I ran in there before.
It's been working great for me so far... and I feel that as long as I'm changing the oil out every 3000 miles, any modern quality oil should be pretty solid. :)
Hmmm... You should be OK as long as your valves are not too snug. What does Ducati recommend for that thing?
Mobil 1 is pretty decent. 0W40 warranty REQUIRED for Benz, Porsche, et al. For track, 15W50 vs 4T Racing 10W40 is a trade off. The 4T produces less friction, so less heat anyway. Just sorry Mobil dropped the 4T 15W50. I'll put V-Twin in the Bonneville and stick with Red Line 15W50 in the 2V in this VA heat.
A 4V really shouldn't "need" xxW50 and it might even rob a little power, but Mobil 1 15W50 isn't likely to "hurt" anything. It won't be 50W anyway unless things get REALLY hot and you have water cooling for that.
3,000 mile drain intervals should be fine if you're missing shifts. ;) I'm leaving the Red Line in for 6,000 as the bike is stored in a dry garage and while I ride briskly, I'm not wearing the clutch much or leaving other debris in the oil. It's rated for 12,000 miles and won't break down. Red Line claims 25% more viscosity vs a petroleum 15W50. $12+/qt. of course.
Stay safe!
I use Motul Etech type 4 syn , Rotella claims full syn but is only a type 3 oil , older boxer motors like 20-50 because the dont rev high . the older airheads love valvoline VR because it has the most ZZDP stuff for the older valve train . I think 20-50 wt. can make a L twin duc rev slower and run hotter . If your clutch slips change your clutch springs .
Quote from: Curmudgeon on June 17, 2012, 08:28:12 PM
Hmmm... You should be OK as long as your valves are not too snug. What does Ducati recommend for that thing?
Mobil 1 is pretty decent. 0W40 warranty REQUIRED for Benz, Porsche, et al. For track, 15W50 vs 4T Racing 10W40 is a trade off. The 4T produces less friction, so less heat anyway. Just sorry Mobil dropped the 4T 15W50. I'll put V-Twin in the Bonneville and stick with Red Line 15W50 in the 2V in this VA heat.
A 4V really shouldn't "need" xxW50 and it might even rob a little power, but Mobil 1 15W50 isn't likely to "hurt" anything. It won't be 50W anyway unless things get REALLY hot and you have water cooling for that.
3,000 mile drain intervals should be fine if you're missing shifts. ;) I'm leaving the Red Line in for 6,000 as the bike is stored in a dry garage and while I ride briskly, I'm not wearing the clutch much or leaving other debris in the oil. It's rated for 12,000 miles and won't break down. Red Line claims 25% more viscosity vs a petroleum 15W50. $12+/qt. of course.
Stay safe!
Like I said before, there tends to be some confusion around the Internet because owners of older Ducati's claim 15W-50 is too thick because they are going by their older owner manuals, but definitely read the owner's manual for your particular year/model.
2008-up: 15W-50 as per the Ducati owner's manual!! This includes air/water cooled 2V, 4V, Monster, Superbike, Streetfighter, Desmosedici RR, and even the new 1199 Panigale S
pre-2008: 10W-40 as per the Ducati owner's manual
The owner of the local dealership even said I could run synthetic 10W-60 in my 2009 Ducati 696 in the summer.
Just a digression, but Fords in Australia run xW-40/xW-50 synthetic, the same engine design as the ones used in US. The Shelby GT500/Ford GT supercharged 5.4L 4V V8 engines run synthetic 5W-50 here in the US. These are modern OHC water-cooled engines.
If you look at the owner's manuals for each generation of Monster you will see the oil weight/temperature chart has not changed even though the the blanket recommendation has. The answer is simple. If you live in Da Bronx and don't use your bike in the winter 10W-40, 15W-50, 20W-50 are all fine, if you want to ride below 32oF 15&20W-50 is not fine. If you live in Florida or ride in Arizona heat in the summer you should consider staying away from 10W anything, if you live in Alaska there is clearly no reason to run heavier than 10W-40. 5W anything does not exist on that chart. If I needed oil and that was all I could get I would use it. Otherwise, no
I run 10W-40 in the winter and 20W-50 in the summer. Been doing this since '01, over 60K miles.
As far as weight and clutch slippage go it shouldn't matter, though it might affect an APC clutch, not sure. Friction modifiers will though. Weight will affect clutch drag though, particularly when cold.
The viscosity chart looks like the one that American car manufacturers included in the owner's manuals in the 1970s and 1980s. Today, Car OEMs give blanket oil weights for year-round use (5W-20, 5W-30, 5W-50, etc...)
My 2009 696 would slip pretty badly with the Rotella T6 at normal temperatures. To sum it up: I could hear the clutch screeching during WOT speed shifts, and the RPMs spiked up according to my data acquisition readings. With the Mobil 1 V-Twin, I didn't hear this doing the same type of shifting, and the RPMs didn't spike up. My owner's manual says 15W-50, not 10W-40. The owner of the Ducati dealer says he would run as high as 10W-60 in the summer for my motor.
The T6 and M1 V-Twin are JASO MA, so there shouldn't be any issues with the wet clutches, but my 696 doesn't like the T6. If I shifted really slowly, it seems the 696 could work with the T6. I'd rather go with the thicker oil. It seems Ducati also recommends 15W-50 for their latest motors: 4V water-cooled 1199 Panigale S or the Desmosedici RR, as well as the air-cooled 2V engines. Your 2001 would probably specify 10W-40 in the owner's manual, most pre-2008 Ducati models specified 10W-40. I looked at numerous Ducati owner manuals from 2000 to 2012, and like I said, 2008-up all seem to specify 15W-50.